Hi, I have read a good amount of the posts in this thread and would like to share some thoughs on a few A/S tier pokemon that I used in some runs very recently. They were all runs using 3-4 pokemon with pretty much zero/minimal grinding outside of forced battles so I think they fit the purpose of this discussion.
Cyndaquil - A Tier
If there's one thing I'm sure it's that cyndaquil is A tier. It is amazing in the start of the game and does quite well later on, having some great matchups in major battles. It's not top tier since it underperforms from the end of Goldenrod until around Mahogany due to his movepool limitation ( it can only learn Flame Wheel at level 31 and Fire Punch is incompatible with Quilava). I know some people have talked about the Fire Blast tm minimizing this issue, but considering how expensive it is and how it only has 5pp, I really don't think it should affect his placing on the list and be a reason to move it to S tier.
Teddiursa(c) - A Tier
Took me about 35-40 minutes to catch this thing. I know I could have waited to obtain the 2 great balls after the first gym or caught a Ursaring after obtaining surf, but I wanted to see if it could perform well early on with no grinding... It can! Even though it comes at level 2, Teddiursa's high base stats (80 attack) allow it to be immediately useful in combat with no team support whatsoever against the first trainers you run across. It also performs admirably well against Falkner if you decide to do the sprout tower, being able to beat it with zero item support and efficiently at regular levels, something that only Totodile can really claim to do as well (lol rage).
It pretty much never underperforms, since from that point onwards it can get access to Headbut, all 3 elemental punches, Return and Earthquake. Its also worth noting that its evolution has a massive attack stat of 130.
I would say A tier is the right place for it. Technically the strongest thing you can get access to (by a small margin) for in game purposes, but it is a significant time investment/headache to catch due to a combination of catch rate and fleeing potential. While you can catch it later, it will require babying if you catch it post great ball, or require backtracking and miss out on key battles if you decide to go for the Ursaring.
Wooper - A Tier
Pretty much a budget Swampert, but that's a big compliment considering how good swampert is in RSE. While Wooper's special attack stat may be pathetic, which can lead to slow Water Gun kills early on, it more than makes up for it with its fantastic typing which proves useful throughout the entire run. It also evolves into Quagsire rather early (level 20), which fixes the above issue while giving you a powerhouse pretty early on. It also gains Earthquake at level 35, which is great. It is very slow throughout the entire game however, which can be annoying.
Spearow - from S to A Tier
I have to disagree with spearow's current placement. While it it has several qualities regardless of which version of it you pick (wild spearow or Kenya), I don't think it fits the S tier. Firstly, while it is a normal type, which gives it several advantages, it can't learn headbutt. This means a few things regarding the return tm(which is only available once per week if the information I have checked is correct):
1)If you give return to someone else, it will be stuck with Peck as its best attack until it gets Fly
2)If you decide to go with Kenya, it won't have enough happiness to really use Return properly anyway (I don't think regular spearow is that much better here, since this gets compensated by the lack of fast exp)
This isn't as bad as Quilava's problem, but it is still a weakness nonetheless.
My other point is that it has no options to get past rock and steel types. The S tiers (Alakazam and Totodile) may have a few annoying matchups, but nothing compared to this, which makes them seem significantly superior in my eyes. Its true that team support solves this, but when you're just fighting a regular battle it can be annoying to switch in and out just because a rock type decided to show up.
Totodile - S Tier
The best pokemon in the game in my opinion, but by a tiny margin. While Alakazam might be stronger and get more quick kills, Totodile's better availability and better bulk make him a bit better. Not much else to say.
Abra (Alakazam) - S Tier /// Abra(Kadabra) - A Tier
There isn't too much to add here, but I would like to say that Abra's babying phase is sometimes overstated. At level 12 with either the Fire Punch or the Thunder Punch (preferably both) it can start fighting on its own just fine, and simply battling the underground trainers will make him a Kadabra. This does require tm support, but even if you are unwilling to buy him the tms at that point, 6 levels (Abra is caught at level 10) at that point of the game is really not much.
Magmar - A Tier
It may have worse availability than Cyndquil, but having free acces to Fire Punch and being immediately compatible with Thunder Punch more than make up for that. I will say this though, I found him to be a bit too fragile when considering what it provides offensively (which is very good but not Alakazam's level of good)
Ho-Oh(g) - A Tier
Bad availability, but fantastic moveset (natural Sacred Fire, Fire Blast at 44, Fly is obviously free, and Shadow Ball and Earthquake are always options) and stats tailored to destroy the game (130 attack, 110 special attack, 154 special defense and just enough speed to outspeed most things).
Some thoughts on pokemons I haven't used recently but whose placing bothered me/that I wanted to say something about:
Magikarp-If this is specifically the Red Gyarados than that should be mentioned in the additional comments in the final version(this is probably what is going to be done anyway but I just wanted to reinforce the idea), because regular magikarp is absolutely not A tier worthy
Lugia and Suicune-Do they really deserve A tier? I remember finding them somewhat inneficient offensively due to their "underwhelming" (considering the lack of evs gained compared to earlier mons) attack and special attack stats. I think there is a clear difference between Ho-Oh and them.
Ghastly-I haven't used it but it sounds like a pain to train from the posts I read. I understand Gengar is really good, but wouldn't B tier make more sense?
Both Nidorans-I know some people think they aren't that much worse than in RBY, but while they may be S tier in those games, I think there is a big gap between those nidorans and these ones. The Rby Nidorans:
+Come before the first gym and start contributing right after it
+Nidoran-M gets horn attack at level 8 which lets it 2 shot things that nothing else can at that point in the game
+They fully evolve super soon (before the second gym)
+They get access to Earthquake usually after the 5th gym(Koga), which is much better than waiting for Victory Road to get a STAB
I'm not saying they're bad or anything, I just think B Tier might fit them better
Geodude and Mareep-Just wanted to say I completely agree with their current placings
Cyndaquil - A Tier
If there's one thing I'm sure it's that cyndaquil is A tier. It is amazing in the start of the game and does quite well later on, having some great matchups in major battles. It's not top tier since it underperforms from the end of Goldenrod until around Mahogany due to his movepool limitation ( it can only learn Flame Wheel at level 31 and Fire Punch is incompatible with Quilava). I know some people have talked about the Fire Blast tm minimizing this issue, but considering how expensive it is and how it only has 5pp, I really don't think it should affect his placing on the list and be a reason to move it to S tier.
Teddiursa(c) - A Tier
Took me about 35-40 minutes to catch this thing. I know I could have waited to obtain the 2 great balls after the first gym or caught a Ursaring after obtaining surf, but I wanted to see if it could perform well early on with no grinding... It can! Even though it comes at level 2, Teddiursa's high base stats (80 attack) allow it to be immediately useful in combat with no team support whatsoever against the first trainers you run across. It also performs admirably well against Falkner if you decide to do the sprout tower, being able to beat it with zero item support and efficiently at regular levels, something that only Totodile can really claim to do as well (lol rage).
It pretty much never underperforms, since from that point onwards it can get access to Headbut, all 3 elemental punches, Return and Earthquake. Its also worth noting that its evolution has a massive attack stat of 130.
I would say A tier is the right place for it. Technically the strongest thing you can get access to (by a small margin) for in game purposes, but it is a significant time investment/headache to catch due to a combination of catch rate and fleeing potential. While you can catch it later, it will require babying if you catch it post great ball, or require backtracking and miss out on key battles if you decide to go for the Ursaring.
Wooper - A Tier
Pretty much a budget Swampert, but that's a big compliment considering how good swampert is in RSE. While Wooper's special attack stat may be pathetic, which can lead to slow Water Gun kills early on, it more than makes up for it with its fantastic typing which proves useful throughout the entire run. It also evolves into Quagsire rather early (level 20), which fixes the above issue while giving you a powerhouse pretty early on. It also gains Earthquake at level 35, which is great. It is very slow throughout the entire game however, which can be annoying.
Spearow - from S to A Tier
I have to disagree with spearow's current placement. While it it has several qualities regardless of which version of it you pick (wild spearow or Kenya), I don't think it fits the S tier. Firstly, while it is a normal type, which gives it several advantages, it can't learn headbutt. This means a few things regarding the return tm(which is only available once per week if the information I have checked is correct):
1)If you give return to someone else, it will be stuck with Peck as its best attack until it gets Fly
2)If you decide to go with Kenya, it won't have enough happiness to really use Return properly anyway (I don't think regular spearow is that much better here, since this gets compensated by the lack of fast exp)
This isn't as bad as Quilava's problem, but it is still a weakness nonetheless.
My other point is that it has no options to get past rock and steel types. The S tiers (Alakazam and Totodile) may have a few annoying matchups, but nothing compared to this, which makes them seem significantly superior in my eyes. Its true that team support solves this, but when you're just fighting a regular battle it can be annoying to switch in and out just because a rock type decided to show up.
Totodile - S Tier
The best pokemon in the game in my opinion, but by a tiny margin. While Alakazam might be stronger and get more quick kills, Totodile's better availability and better bulk make him a bit better. Not much else to say.
Abra (Alakazam) - S Tier /// Abra(Kadabra) - A Tier
There isn't too much to add here, but I would like to say that Abra's babying phase is sometimes overstated. At level 12 with either the Fire Punch or the Thunder Punch (preferably both) it can start fighting on its own just fine, and simply battling the underground trainers will make him a Kadabra. This does require tm support, but even if you are unwilling to buy him the tms at that point, 6 levels (Abra is caught at level 10) at that point of the game is really not much.
Magmar - A Tier
It may have worse availability than Cyndquil, but having free acces to Fire Punch and being immediately compatible with Thunder Punch more than make up for that. I will say this though, I found him to be a bit too fragile when considering what it provides offensively (which is very good but not Alakazam's level of good)
Ho-Oh(g) - A Tier
Bad availability, but fantastic moveset (natural Sacred Fire, Fire Blast at 44, Fly is obviously free, and Shadow Ball and Earthquake are always options) and stats tailored to destroy the game (130 attack, 110 special attack, 154 special defense and just enough speed to outspeed most things).
Some thoughts on pokemons I haven't used recently but whose placing bothered me/that I wanted to say something about:
Magikarp-If this is specifically the Red Gyarados than that should be mentioned in the additional comments in the final version(this is probably what is going to be done anyway but I just wanted to reinforce the idea), because regular magikarp is absolutely not A tier worthy
Lugia and Suicune-Do they really deserve A tier? I remember finding them somewhat inneficient offensively due to their "underwhelming" (considering the lack of evs gained compared to earlier mons) attack and special attack stats. I think there is a clear difference between Ho-Oh and them.
Ghastly-I haven't used it but it sounds like a pain to train from the posts I read. I understand Gengar is really good, but wouldn't B tier make more sense?
Both Nidorans-I know some people think they aren't that much worse than in RBY, but while they may be S tier in those games, I think there is a big gap between those nidorans and these ones. The Rby Nidorans:
+Come before the first gym and start contributing right after it
+Nidoran-M gets horn attack at level 8 which lets it 2 shot things that nothing else can at that point in the game
+They fully evolve super soon (before the second gym)
+They get access to Earthquake usually after the 5th gym(Koga), which is much better than waiting for Victory Road to get a STAB
I'm not saying they're bad or anything, I just think B Tier might fit them better
Geodude and Mareep-Just wanted to say I completely agree with their current placings
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