Wtf why pass Butterfly Dance to an Ononokusu! Haha you might as well use a Blaziken/Ninjask to get the speed and/or attack boosts to it if you're going that route.
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Haxorus
- Thread starter R.B.G.
- Start date
Stat boosts do not multiply the base stat by their respective amount, they multiply the actual stat.
For example, a pokemon with base 100 speed and a positive nature hits 328 speed. After a DD, it hits 492. If the base stat were multiplied, it would be the equivalent of a positive natures base 150 speed (438).
Also, I'd much rather pass Butterfly Dance to something that will be utilizing the SpA aspect; CB Ono is not hitting any harder after a BD.
This is... implausible for a couple of reasons. What is the opposing lead going to be doing while you're setting up, exactly? Taunt leads are all the rage now with MH. And why would you pass those boosts to something that's banded? Both coverage moves have types that are immune to them, and dragon claw and outrage don't really make sense together with this set.
...what the hell? Why does this set have Shadow Claw instead of Earthquake? >___> Who in their right mind would use Shadow Claw instead of Moldbreaker-OMFG-it-hits-Bronzong-now Earthquake? :/ In fact, the only thing NOT hit by Outrage / Earthquake is Skarmory, who is stopped cold by Taunt. Dragon Tail is another good option in Taunt's slot... with the boosted Speed from DD, it can power-shuffle stuff like hell, which would be fantastic for a team that relies on entry hazards. (If Dragon Tail goes last like Roar, this could be more problematic, but... with this bulky spread, perhaps it wouldn't matter as much.)
Honestly though, I'm not really sure what's with the obsession with Shadow Claw on all the sets. o___O It has plenty of equal or better options it can use, like Rock Slide, X-Scissor, Dragon Tail, even Night Slash which has the same base power...
Substitute is also good for helping set up Dancing sweeps, and the possibility of a nasty Swords Dance set can't be overlooked.
Honestly though, I'm not really sure what's with the obsession with Shadow Claw on all the sets. o___O It has plenty of equal or better options it can use, like Rock Slide, X-Scissor, Dragon Tail, even Night Slash which has the same base power...
Substitute is also good for helping set up Dancing sweeps, and the possibility of a nasty Swords Dance set can't be overlooked.
Well I guess Shadow Claw can hit Burungeru and Dusnoir hard without using Outrage, but it's still not as powerful as Outrage against anything (nothing has a type that takes 4x more damage from Ghost attacks than Dragon attacks). When your STAB is only walled by Steel types, there's abosolutely no reason to run a coverage attack that is also walled by Steel types.
On the Choiced sets, Ononokusu's movepool is rather lacking, but Night Slash is so much better than Shadow Claw because nothing's immune to Dark. IMO, Rock Slide is a better option on Choiced sets than both of those moves, since it hits Intimidate users like Gyarados SE and atleast hits Skarmory nuetrally.
On the Choiced sets, Ononokusu's movepool is rather lacking, but Night Slash is so much better than Shadow Claw because nothing's immune to Dark. IMO, Rock Slide is a better option on Choiced sets than both of those moves, since it hits Intimidate users like Gyarados SE and atleast hits Skarmory nuetrally.
And the point IS, even if they HAVE Levitate (IE, Rotom & Gengar especially), they're wrecked by Mold Breaker Earthquake. -___-'
And anyway, if you don' like being locked into Outrage, you use Dragon Claw, clean and simple. The point, though, is that Outrage coming off of that ridiculous Attack stat WRECKS stuff-- I actually wouldn't mind being locked into it, even AGAINST a Steel-type. But anyway, Steels apparently now unlock Outrage-users, making it that much easier to Quake them... so I really don't see the concern here.
That's too bad. D= Also, I think you mean Dragon Tail, right? >.>
I would run Outrage/EQ as it hits a broader spectrum for neutral damage. Shadow claw is not the best choice as its still walled by steel types so doesnt gain you much of an advantage, if you're having a problem with steel bring in another poke to counter for that. I would run rock slide on CB instead as it hits neutrally aswell as providing better all round coverage.
Depending on the set you're using, you would use shadow claw/night slash instead wouldn't you? also, +1 atk adamant eq would only 3hko 252hp 228 def duskinoir while +1 atk adamant/jolly outrage would 2hko.
Yeah, I meant Dragon Tail.
Steels do not end the effect of Outrage. That was a misinterpretation of early data. The only way Outrage can be stopped prematurely is if the move does no damage whatsoever. The way it was described was that the move would stop if it was "ineffective", which some people thought applied if it was resisted, but that was found to be false.
Steels do not end the effect of Outrage. That was a misinterpretation of early data. The only way Outrage can be stopped prematurely is if the move does no damage whatsoever. The way it was described was that the move would stop if it was "ineffective", which some people thought applied if it was resisted, but that was found to be false.
Ah. Well then I was indeed mistaken about that... Thanks for the clarification.
(...yeah... what I thought regarding Dragon Tail and Outrage would have been pretty broken anyway in retrospect. It's just as well.)
Well anyway, here's a set contribution:
Set: Swords Dance
Ononokusu @ Life Orb / Leftovers / Salac Berry
Jolly Nature
EVs: 252 HP/100 Attack/156 Defense
OR 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw / Double-Chop
- Earthquake
- Substitute / Dragon Tail
Sort of the Choice Band set to Dragon Dance's Choice Scarf. Added Attack means you're more of a hole-puncher / wallbreaker rather than a sweeper. Dragon Claw for reliability, then in the last slot, Sub can help set up easier, while Dragon Tail power-shuffles. This is probably the only Ononokusu set, aside from possibly Choice Band, where Dragon Tail has any potential usefulness. Also, the sweeper-ish EV build is more conducive to Substitute, while the bulky one might use Dragon Tail better. Item-wise, Salac Berry would be good with Substitute to help the Speed problem.
(EVs depend; is it bulky enough to take hits while dancing, or would it be too slow to function? Consequently, with max Speed, would it still be too slow after a dance? Personally, I think Garchomp is a better SD-user, but Ononokusu has higher Attack plus Mold Breaker, so it's an option...)
(...yeah... what I thought regarding Dragon Tail and Outrage would have been pretty broken anyway in retrospect. It's just as well.)
Well anyway, here's a set contribution:
Set: Swords Dance
Ononokusu @ Life Orb / Leftovers / Salac Berry
Jolly Nature
EVs: 252 HP/100 Attack/156 Defense
OR 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw / Double-Chop
- Earthquake
- Substitute / Dragon Tail
Sort of the Choice Band set to Dragon Dance's Choice Scarf. Added Attack means you're more of a hole-puncher / wallbreaker rather than a sweeper. Dragon Claw for reliability, then in the last slot, Sub can help set up easier, while Dragon Tail power-shuffles. This is probably the only Ononokusu set, aside from possibly Choice Band, where Dragon Tail has any potential usefulness. Also, the sweeper-ish EV build is more conducive to Substitute, while the bulky one might use Dragon Tail better. Item-wise, Salac Berry would be good with Substitute to help the Speed problem.
(EVs depend; is it bulky enough to take hits while dancing, or would it be too slow to function? Consequently, with max Speed, would it still be too slow after a dance? Personally, I think Garchomp is a better SD-user, but Ononokusu has higher Attack plus Mold Breaker, so it's an option...)
@BF Dancing to Ono: That is a really big no no. Seriously, just...just don't even...
@Shadow Claw: Shadow claw is still an option on any of his sets, but Outrage/EQ is the better coverage. While you can also forgo having taunt on him as well, replacing it with either shadow claw, or Dragon Claw.
@Banryu: Onono has average bulk, meaning, he can take a hit when you invest in it. The past few pages were mostly Bulky DD sets which have been proven to work well, and in several cases, better then the standard sweeper EV's. With that said, you still need to meet a few requirements which R.B.G hasn't been able to update with. 80 spe EV's is need at most if your running DD sets so you can setup 2 D-Dances and roll-over everything in late-game with a sweep. As far as SD goes though, maxing attack is almost a must.
IMO, im not a fan of Sub Ono, but It can definitely work. Running swords dance with bulky EV's sounds legit, which I tried awhile back, but I haven't been putting to much time into his wallbreaking aspect. On that same note though, you don't want to run minimum 100 atk EV's with SD. You need at best, almost 252 attack so your hits actually have more of a backing behind each hit.
You also never wan't to run jolly on him since it lowers his attack too much. With your set, your reaching as nearly as much attack as you would be using adamant, which, makes a huge difference for him. with just an adamant nature, you hit 363 attack (or around there), while jolly nature will drop you a good bit for a speed stat is, while still good, is not noteworthy, even on SD sets. DD sets wont run jolly because they only need 80 EV's to reach 2 DD's and outspeed it's checks, while using jolly under SD sacrifices too much attack.
@Shadow Claw: Shadow claw is still an option on any of his sets, but Outrage/EQ is the better coverage. While you can also forgo having taunt on him as well, replacing it with either shadow claw, or Dragon Claw.
@Banryu: Onono has average bulk, meaning, he can take a hit when you invest in it. The past few pages were mostly Bulky DD sets which have been proven to work well, and in several cases, better then the standard sweeper EV's. With that said, you still need to meet a few requirements which R.B.G hasn't been able to update with. 80 spe EV's is need at most if your running DD sets so you can setup 2 D-Dances and roll-over everything in late-game with a sweep. As far as SD goes though, maxing attack is almost a must.
IMO, im not a fan of Sub Ono, but It can definitely work. Running swords dance with bulky EV's sounds legit, which I tried awhile back, but I haven't been putting to much time into his wallbreaking aspect. On that same note though, you don't want to run minimum 100 atk EV's with SD. You need at best, almost 252 attack so your hits actually have more of a backing behind each hit.
You also never wan't to run jolly on him since it lowers his attack too much. With your set, your reaching as nearly as much attack as you would be using adamant, which, makes a huge difference for him. with just an adamant nature, you hit 363 attack (or around there), while jolly nature will drop you a good bit for a speed stat is, while still good, is not noteworthy, even on SD sets. DD sets wont run jolly because they only need 80 EV's to reach 2 DD's and outspeed it's checks, while using jolly under SD sacrifices too much attack.
I see... very good to know.
So based on what you've told me, it sounds like a Bulky Swords Dancing set that utilizes Dragon Tail for shuffling might potentially be viable. :0 Make it Adamant max-attack, invest a few Speed EVs to outspeed certain things, and throw the rest of the EVs into HP, and you've got a mean, green, shuffling machine that would be killer with lots of entry hazard support. What do you guys think of this idea?
As for Substitute, it's probably better used on a more sweeperish-built set, like Jolly with 252 / 252 in offenses.... if it's to be used at all. Maybe It's not so ideal for him.
I personally think Substitute should be used on an all-out offensive set like LOGar in Gen 4. It would allow Ono hit its primary checks extremely hard with the correct move, while being protected by Substitute. And as for the bulky SD set, it still wouldn't do much to Skarm or Nattorei, its primary checks, and because SD Ono already runs through everything else, a straight-up SD+Taunt set, like Colonel_M posted a few pages ago, will probably work better than a phazing set.
I don't doubt that... I admit I was thinking a little on the gimmicky side, olol. I think DD+Taunt is gonna be what this guy does best; Swords Dance is done way better by Garchomp.
Not really. Ono always OHKOs physically defensive Hippo, while Chomp sometimes doesn't, allowing Hippo to hit it back with Ice Fang or phaze it out. It also 2HKOs skarm with Outrage, so Skarm can't easily switch in on a predicted Outrage, like it can with Garchomp. It also OHKOs Bronzong and Cresselia, as well as 2HKOing Nattorei with Outrage. Ono with an SD under its belt is impossible to switch into, while Garchomp can be countered. Also, Taunt, when used with some prediction, allows it to avoid being phazed. Garchomp can't do that.
I've been kinda meandering through the site and I came across 2 pokes that might help out Ono.
The first is Zoroark.One of the main problems with Ono,as many people have pointed out, is the lack of a fire move.This allows Skarmory and Nattorei especially to switch in and try to wall Ono.They switch in and take a Flamethrower from Zoro and get KOed.This allows Ono a better chance to sweep with the counters gone.
Its kind of a nice set up to since Ono draws in physical walls and Zoro launches special moves.Imagine drawing in a Hippo or bulky water while you Nasty Plot.If they switch you get another Plot/free hit or they stay in and take a +2 Grass Knot.
Zoro could also run a kinda gimmicky Momento set with its Night Burst.Lower their accuracy and stats to get in Ono for Dragon Dancing.Gimmick but it sounds fun.
The other is Torunerosu.I ran across this on the Tailwind thread.The idea is to set up Tailwind and then U-Turn to Ono.Let Ono have some fun with the double speed for a while.The set was:
Torunerosu @ Leftovers/Focus Sash
Mischevious Heart
Timid/Modest
4 HP/252 SpAtk/252 Spe OR 252 HP/4 SpAtk/252 Spe
-Tailwind
-Taunt
-U-Turn
-Gale/Air Slash
Straight from the Tailwind thread.Personally I would go Modest and find a good benchmark speed but eh.The nice thing is even if you have to sac Torunerosu,it makes Ono able to get past any dragon.Mischevious Heart to get Tailwind up while Toru gets KOed by enemy dragon.Now Ono comes in with double speed to get the jump on Scarfchomp with only 80 EVs.If you want to outrun Scarf Lati@s (the fastest dragons in the game) and that would require 132 EVs on Ononokusu with Tailwind.
Just some thoughts I felt like sharing.Do with it as you wish.
The first is Zoroark.One of the main problems with Ono,as many people have pointed out, is the lack of a fire move.This allows Skarmory and Nattorei especially to switch in and try to wall Ono.They switch in and take a Flamethrower from Zoro and get KOed.This allows Ono a better chance to sweep with the counters gone.
Its kind of a nice set up to since Ono draws in physical walls and Zoro launches special moves.Imagine drawing in a Hippo or bulky water while you Nasty Plot.If they switch you get another Plot/free hit or they stay in and take a +2 Grass Knot.
Zoro could also run a kinda gimmicky Momento set with its Night Burst.Lower their accuracy and stats to get in Ono for Dragon Dancing.Gimmick but it sounds fun.
The other is Torunerosu.I ran across this on the Tailwind thread.The idea is to set up Tailwind and then U-Turn to Ono.Let Ono have some fun with the double speed for a while.The set was:
Torunerosu @ Leftovers/Focus Sash
Mischevious Heart
Timid/Modest
4 HP/252 SpAtk/252 Spe OR 252 HP/4 SpAtk/252 Spe
-Tailwind
-Taunt
-U-Turn
-Gale/Air Slash
Straight from the Tailwind thread.Personally I would go Modest and find a good benchmark speed but eh.The nice thing is even if you have to sac Torunerosu,it makes Ono able to get past any dragon.Mischevious Heart to get Tailwind up while Toru gets KOed by enemy dragon.Now Ono comes in with double speed to get the jump on Scarfchomp with only 80 EVs.If you want to outrun Scarf Lati@s (the fastest dragons in the game) and that would require 132 EVs on Ononokusu with Tailwind.
Just some thoughts I felt like sharing.Do with it as you wish.
The thing is, Tailwind just doesn't last long enough to be of any real use. Also, although Zoroark helps against Ono's dedicated counters like Skarmory, an SD set can OHKO all of the defensive threats that might trouble a DD set. So pairing it up with Zoroark desn't help it too much unless it's used to KO Skarm or Nattorei.
After using Onono, I can say that it is seriously underrated. The thing hits like a truck with a choice band, it OHKOs nearly every pokemon you will see in BW minus Steels (which it will 2hko). Skarmory is this thing's only problem, nothing else can switch into a choice banded outrage with a smile. I feel like it is outclassed when using any other set though, mostly due to its speed although it's bad defenses aren't helping either.
It's too bad that this pokemon is big time Ditto bait, or I would use it more often. I'd really rather not have my opponent get off a free STAB Scarf Outrage off one of the game's best attack stats.
It's too bad that this pokemon is big time Ditto bait, or I would use it more often. I'd really rather not have my opponent get off a free STAB Scarf Outrage off one of the game's best attack stats.
I agree with this. I've tried using bulky DD Ono and just couldn't get it to work in my experience. The metagame was just too fast-paced to be able to get to +2 and when I did manage to Ditto would come in, so I'm trying out substitute.
I've thought from the beginning that just attacking straight up with a CB is Ono's most effective role, and from what I've seen, this is indeed the case. Every time the opponent sends their Ono out, they try to set up and end up dying without doing anything when if they would have just attacked straight away they could have crushed one of my Pokemon easily.
the fact that all dragon in this gen is nice doesnt help ono.
i mean nite has niche over mence ? mence is as threatening as before ?
Garchomp is a beast ? Altaria has cloud nine ? Kurimugan has many tools ?
gosh he has POWER and taunt but among all his selling point theres other mon
who MIGHT do it better (i prefer bulky dd taunt gyara TBH)
i mean nite has niche over mence ? mence is as threatening as before ?
Garchomp is a beast ? Altaria has cloud nine ? Kurimugan has many tools ?
gosh he has POWER and taunt but among all his selling point theres other mon
who MIGHT do it better (i prefer bulky dd taunt gyara TBH)
I wouldn't be too harsh to him. In the late game, once steels and perhaps scarfers are removed, he can clean up fairly effectively; however, I do see that everything it does can arguably be done better by something else. Although, bear in mind that that something wont have a 147 attack stat
Its attack stat is ~866 after a Swords Dance. It has a niche. That niche is obliterating everything, even Skarmory in two hits, with Outrage. DD sets can also work well with its mono dragon typing, allowing it to actually survive an Ice Shard, unlike Salamence, and giving it some good resistances that it can capitalize upon with a semi-bulky set. One can argue that something else does whatever Ono does better, but like you said, that something won't have a 147 attack stat.
