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Heatran (Analysis) [QC 0/3]
- Thread starter ungulateman
- Start date
Look, I'll post it again.
Nitro Charge is ineffective with so many teams running powerful Fighting-type priority users. Give me evidence (preferably logs) of its effectiveness and I will add it.
And yes, I have tried it. It wasn't pulling its weight in the slightest.
Nitro Charge is ineffective with so many teams running powerful Fighting-type priority users. Give me evidence (preferably logs) of its effectiveness and I will add it.
And yes, I have tried it. It wasn't pulling its weight in the slightest.
again I think EO already said this but no specially defensive EV spread for Heatran. I have found it very useful at soaking up random Special attacks and suck like. I pretty much ran 252HP/252SDef/4SpA Calm with Toxic/Lave Plume/Earth Power/filler. At the very least I think that a specially defensive spread should be mentioned as it gives surprising bulk.
Have a Nice Day!
Have a Nice Day!
Thats why you get rid of the damn priority before you try and sweep. I fail to see how hard it is to see that it's a viable option that pretty much everyone wants to be added. And besides Roobushin and Breloom, there is no other common Fighting type priority users. I can't remember the last time I saw a Infernape and you easily KO with Earth Power. Same thing with Lucario. With your logic, Doryuuzu isn't good because of all the Fighting typw priority being used.
How the hell is it dead weight just because priority isn't removed yet. You could, I don't know, fire off some attacks when you first come in to weaken the other team in preperation for a sweep? With your logic, I could easily say that Randorosu is dead weight with Skarmory and Bronzong blocking his sweep, but anyone who has used him knows thats not true at all.
Edit: Ok, just going to ask: Why the fuck do you have a Opinion and a Overview? I'm pretty sure Opinion was changed to Overview nearly a year ago.
Look, I'll post it again.
SLASH NITRO CHARGE. DO IT.
And for god's sake remove HP Grass. Swampert is not only non-existent, but it's also terrible in this metagame.
End of story.
A couple other notes, which I talked to Eo Ut Mortus about:
Re-order the sets to this: Non-Choice, Scarf, Specs, Torment.
The Non-Choice Attacker set should have 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe as its EV spread with a Timid nature.
Quit referring to unreleased Dream World Pokemon. At different points in this analysis, you mention Scarf Ditto and Technician Breloom, neither of which is currently available or legal.
Learn to format an analysis. You clearly didn't even bother to read the "Analysis Format" announcement at the top of the forum, because the analysis format you're using hasn't been in place for YEARS.
SLASH NITRO CHARGE. DO IT.
And for god's sake remove HP Grass. Swampert is not only non-existent, but it's also terrible in this metagame.
End of story.
A couple other notes, which I talked to Eo Ut Mortus about:
Re-order the sets to this: Non-Choice, Scarf, Specs, Torment.
The Non-Choice Attacker set should have 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe as its EV spread with a Timid nature.
Quit referring to unreleased Dream World Pokemon. At different points in this analysis, you mention Scarf Ditto and Technician Breloom, neither of which is currently available or legal.
Learn to format an analysis. You clearly didn't even bother to read the "Analysis Format" announcement at the top of the forum, because the analysis format you're using hasn't been in place for YEARS.
Also, prolly should mention Droughtales in Team Options. For all of the sets. Boosts fire attacks (2HKOing Blissey with SR and Life Orb lulz) and removes a water weakness, and god damn is a +1 speed Heatran in the sun, perhaps even with a balloon, awesome.
Adamant 252 Attack (No Techniloom dude) Mach Punch vs 0 hp Timid Tran: 42.7% - 50.8%
Adamant 252 Attack Guts-activated Roobushin Mach Punch: 67.5% - 79.9%
Adamant 252 Attack Guts-activated Life Orb Roobushin Mach Punch: 87.3% - 102.8%
Pictured above: evidence
Instead of theorymonning with damage calcs, maybe you should, i dunno, use nitro charge and try to sweep. It will take about two battles before you understand why nitro charge first appears in the 9th most common moveset, making up 2% of Heatrans. Alot of stuff looks good on paper.
Also HP grass is pretty pointless in this gen as swampert has gone the way of the dodo and quagsire/gastrodon are still looking UUish even with the new abilities.
I would like to see more stealth rock/WoW mentions at least in other options because heatran is a top-notch support poke as well. Balloon + stealth rock is extremely common.
Also HP grass is pretty pointless in this gen as swampert has gone the way of the dodo and quagsire/gastrodon are still looking UUish even with the new abilities.
I would like to see more stealth rock/WoW mentions at least in other options because heatran is a top-notch support poke as well. Balloon + stealth rock is extremely common.
SDS, I'm using the same style as the one on the Zekrom example. I'll edit it soon, but I'm very busy as school just started again where I live.
Added your other comments. Nitro Charge gets a mention too, if that's what you want.
*sighs*
Added your other comments. Nitro Charge gets a mention too, if that's what you want.
*sighs*
Anybody see a lot of SR/Sub, and two attack sets? I see that variety most often.
I've recently tried out a niche anti-meta set:
Heatran (F) @ Leftovers / Balloon
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Sunny Day
- Hidden Power [Fighting] / Will-O-Wisp
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast
FBlast and Dragon Pulse provide good average as mentioned. HP Fighting is for none other than Tyranitar. Sunny Day is a counter to rain and perhaps sand (I find that sun is the easiest to deal with in general).
The key to using this set is to force your opponent out. In rain, enter against Nattorei or one of the steel types rain teams usually carry and use Sunny Day on the switch. Usually, if the opponent doesn't see a weather inducer on your team, they will be less careful with Politoed. Moreover, even if it's alive and comes in on the turn you use SD, the sun will still be up (since you attack after rain activates). Thus, you'll force your opponent at the least to take a sun-boosted fire attack as they try to reswitch and bring Politoed out again. If you are a risk taker, you can actually SD again on the turn you think Toed will come back in. Sunny day is also useful against balanced teams since most will either send a water type or somebody that knows EQ. If you have balloon intact, you can SD on the switch and then get off at least a sun-boosted FBlast before being forced out.
HP Fighting is specifically for T-tar since I find him to be too common these days. Due to the Special Defense boost, non-specs Earth Power is a 3HKO on the T-tars I've seen. A lot of people must know this since I've had so many T-tar switch-ins. HP Fighting will be a 2HKO, but you have to hit on the switch-in or else most likely Heatran will die (to EQ or Superpower usually). WoW is another option to cripple T-tar and requires less prediction. In this case, I would switch Dragon Pulse with HP Ice. If you really feel like it, you could use Sunny Day to lure T-tar in sand teams, but it's very hard to do practically since the first switch usually is a hard counter.
This set has done well the last twenty or so games I played, but I'll keep on testing and you guys another update.
Heatran (F) @ Leftovers / Balloon
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Sunny Day
- Hidden Power [Fighting] / Will-O-Wisp
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast
FBlast and Dragon Pulse provide good average as mentioned. HP Fighting is for none other than Tyranitar. Sunny Day is a counter to rain and perhaps sand (I find that sun is the easiest to deal with in general).
The key to using this set is to force your opponent out. In rain, enter against Nattorei or one of the steel types rain teams usually carry and use Sunny Day on the switch. Usually, if the opponent doesn't see a weather inducer on your team, they will be less careful with Politoed. Moreover, even if it's alive and comes in on the turn you use SD, the sun will still be up (since you attack after rain activates). Thus, you'll force your opponent at the least to take a sun-boosted fire attack as they try to reswitch and bring Politoed out again. If you are a risk taker, you can actually SD again on the turn you think Toed will come back in. Sunny day is also useful against balanced teams since most will either send a water type or somebody that knows EQ. If you have balloon intact, you can SD on the switch and then get off at least a sun-boosted FBlast before being forced out.
HP Fighting is specifically for T-tar since I find him to be too common these days. Due to the Special Defense boost, non-specs Earth Power is a 3HKO on the T-tars I've seen. A lot of people must know this since I've had so many T-tar switch-ins. HP Fighting will be a 2HKO, but you have to hit on the switch-in or else most likely Heatran will die (to EQ or Superpower usually). WoW is another option to cripple T-tar and requires less prediction. In this case, I would switch Dragon Pulse with HP Ice. If you really feel like it, you could use Sunny Day to lure T-tar in sand teams, but it's very hard to do practically since the first switch usually is a hard counter.
This set has done well the last twenty or so games I played, but I'll keep on testing and you guys another update.
The lack off RestTalk Heatran depresses me. Yes, RestTalk has been nerfed, but stall teams just do not want to face it. You either can hit Heatran hard, or you flat out can't hit the bastard at all.
[SET]
Name: RestTalk Shuffle
Move 1: Flamethrower / Lava Plume
Move 2: Roar
Move 3: Rest
Move 4: Sleep Talk
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Calm
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 96 SpD / 164 Spe
[SET]
Name: RestTalk Shuffle
Move 1: Flamethrower / Lava Plume
Move 2: Roar
Move 3: Rest
Move 4: Sleep Talk
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Calm
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 96 SpD / 164 Spe
Please remember to use prefixes in the future.
The best thing Heatran can do this generation is Balloon + Stealth Rock. As such, please rename the first set "Stealth Rock" (or something along those lines) and remove Nitro Charge as a slash in the final slot.
Nitro Charge is gimmicky at best; you aren't going to be sweeping many teams with one Speed boost; there are just too many things that can stop you. Politoed can come in and summon rain in order to make Fire Blast weaker. It can then KO you with a STAB Water move. Jellicent and other Water-types stop you cold as well. If you're running Life Orb (or if your Balloon has been popped), Excadrill can revenge you with Earthquake. You can't even outpace Choice Scarf Garchomp after a Nitro Charge and you need Life orb in order to be threatening. So yeah, make a mention of it in Optional Changes IMO, it doesn't deserve a slash on the first set.
The Overview section needs to be hyped down a bit. Heatran isn't as good as it was in Gen 4 and is by no means "one of the defining Steel-types of the fifth generation." Talk more about the nerfs Heatran received, such as Explosion not halving Defense anymore, the existence of Burungeru, and so on.
Also, the end of your analysis should be in this order:
Nitro Charge is gimmicky at best; you aren't going to be sweeping many teams with one Speed boost; there are just too many things that can stop you. Politoed can come in and summon rain in order to make Fire Blast weaker. It can then KO you with a STAB Water move. Jellicent and other Water-types stop you cold as well. If you're running Life Orb (or if your Balloon has been popped), Excadrill can revenge you with Earthquake. You can't even outpace Choice Scarf Garchomp after a Nitro Charge and you need Life orb in order to be threatening. So yeah, make a mention of it in Optional Changes IMO, it doesn't deserve a slash on the first set.
The Overview section needs to be hyped down a bit. Heatran isn't as good as it was in Gen 4 and is by no means "one of the defining Steel-types of the fifth generation." Talk more about the nerfs Heatran received, such as Explosion not halving Defense anymore, the existence of Burungeru, and so on.
Also, the end of your analysis should be in this order:
- [Team Options]
- [Optional Changes]
- [Counters]
- [Dream World]
I don't have much to add that Bloo didn't cover already. My only suggestion is that make Modest the only option the Stealth Rock set. The power boost is definitely noticeable and you don't lose out against anything in particular. The power boost allows you to OHKO Gliscor & Landlos most of the time with SR on the field and it allows you to run Dragon Pulse for the Dragons. (Don't deslash HP Ice though its still useful for guaranteeing the OHKO on Gliscor&Landlos and it's extremely useful against Garchomp)
Heatran's base 77 speed is no longer special like in gen 4, and its really only useful against opposing Heatrans (which are pretty rare)
Heatran's base 77 speed is no longer special like in gen 4, and its really only useful against opposing Heatrans (which are pretty rare)
Taunt, Roar and Will-O-Wisp should be mentioned in OO. Taunt should also be mentioned on the Life Orb set because it beats Blissey and pretty much still beats stall teams by itself. A set with Taunt, HP Grass, Fire Blast and EarthPower/DragonPulse @ Life Orb could get past both Blissey AND Burungeru, something that is actually really impressive.
Hidden Power Grass isn't just for Swampert, but for ANY Water-type that comes in to wall your other moves. It's at least worth mentioning in the set comments or OO. Burungeru shits all over you otherwise, a dent is better than nothing. At least you'd force it to Recover instead of burning your switchin.
Tyranitar needs to be listed in Counters. Not only does it come in for free against pretty much anything (Earth Power doesn't do as much as you'd think), it also sets up Sandstorm, sometimes SR, and generally hits your team extremely hard. Might not be OU, but Rhyperior also dominates Heatran (you could just say "any Rock-type in Sandstorm" or something general like that). I know Ttar is mentioned a couple of times in the analysis already but that counters section is ridiculously small considering the number of pokemon that Heatran can't hurt.
Other Heatran should also be listed in the counters, especially if they have Balloon. You mentioned Flash Fire users but I feel like Heatran is a special case here, and at least more notable than Arcanine...
Latias/Latios also do a good job countering it. Latias can set up CMs on Heatran and Latios gets Surf. Same with Tentacruel. Or Vaporeon, or Swampert, or Milotic, or any bulky Water that is conspicuously absent from the counters list.
Hidden Power Grass isn't just for Swampert, but for ANY Water-type that comes in to wall your other moves. It's at least worth mentioning in the set comments or OO. Burungeru shits all over you otherwise, a dent is better than nothing. At least you'd force it to Recover instead of burning your switchin.
Tyranitar needs to be listed in Counters. Not only does it come in for free against pretty much anything (Earth Power doesn't do as much as you'd think), it also sets up Sandstorm, sometimes SR, and generally hits your team extremely hard. Might not be OU, but Rhyperior also dominates Heatran (you could just say "any Rock-type in Sandstorm" or something general like that). I know Ttar is mentioned a couple of times in the analysis already but that counters section is ridiculously small considering the number of pokemon that Heatran can't hurt.
Other Heatran should also be listed in the counters, especially if they have Balloon. You mentioned Flash Fire users but I feel like Heatran is a special case here, and at least more notable than Arcanine...
Latias/Latios also do a good job countering it. Latias can set up CMs on Heatran and Latios gets Surf. Same with Tentacruel. Or Vaporeon, or Swampert, or Milotic, or any bulky Water that is conspicuously absent from the counters list.
I have run a very effective Heatran set this meta, which involves using most team's best counter (lati@s) as set up fodder.
Heatran @ Leftovers
Modest Nature... +SpA, -Atk
42 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
~Substitute
~Dragon Pulse
~Toxic
~Flamethrower / Fire Blast
Sub on Nattorei or whatever, then D-Pulse it up on the Dragon Switch. It 2HKOs offensive versions of Lati@s, and 2HKOs every other Dragon as well. If Ononokusu takes a bit of prior damage, it is OHKOed. Naive Mence is OHKOed after SR. If it's a Burunkeru or Suicune (water types in particular) or T-Tar that comes in, use Toxic.
Heatran @ Leftovers
Modest Nature... +SpA, -Atk
42 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
~Substitute
~Dragon Pulse
~Toxic
~Flamethrower / Fire Blast
Sub on Nattorei or whatever, then D-Pulse it up on the Dragon Switch. It 2HKOs offensive versions of Lati@s, and 2HKOs every other Dragon as well. If Ononokusu takes a bit of prior damage, it is OHKOed. Naive Mence is OHKOed after SR. If it's a Burunkeru or Suicune (water types in particular) or T-Tar that comes in, use Toxic.
I agree with everyone rioting about Nitro Charge. Fire Blast/Earth Power/Dragon Pulse/Explosion was an insanely common moveset last gen, someone explain to me how replacing Explosion with Nitro Charge is a step backwards or even a lateral move. There wasn't that much less fighting type priority last gen than there is now.
(Edit: by the logic being used by those opposed to Nitro Charge sets, no pokemon weak to priority should ever use a speed boosting move. wat.)
Heatran is not a frail mon. A Nitro Charge set would all but completely outclass the ubiquitous (at least in 4th gen) Scarftran, IMO. You can switch moves, do damage while boosting, boost beyond +1, and have a free item slot, and all at the pathetic cost of a turn (not a big deal, Heatran can take a hit, and its not like a Choiced Heatran or choiced anything for that matter wouldn't lose you plenty of turns switching), and a moveslot, which was previously taken by Explosion which is now crap. A coverage move? What are you going to cover that Fire/Ground/Dragon doesn't? Burunkeru with Dark Pulse? No.
As far as its commonality on sets on PO or whatever... the metagame is still in its infancy. Who the fuck used Tormentran, the Specially Defensive set, or hell, half the sets on http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/heatran in the first few months of the 4th gen?
tl;dr the point of comparing a Nitro set to Scarftran is to show that a set that completely outclasses the most popular set from 4th gen is worth a mention at the bare minimum in a 5th gen analysis.
(Edit: by the logic being used by those opposed to Nitro Charge sets, no pokemon weak to priority should ever use a speed boosting move. wat.)
Heatran is not a frail mon. A Nitro Charge set would all but completely outclass the ubiquitous (at least in 4th gen) Scarftran, IMO. You can switch moves, do damage while boosting, boost beyond +1, and have a free item slot, and all at the pathetic cost of a turn (not a big deal, Heatran can take a hit, and its not like a Choiced Heatran or choiced anything for that matter wouldn't lose you plenty of turns switching), and a moveslot, which was previously taken by Explosion which is now crap. A coverage move? What are you going to cover that Fire/Ground/Dragon doesn't? Burunkeru with Dark Pulse? No.
As far as its commonality on sets on PO or whatever... the metagame is still in its infancy. Who the fuck used Tormentran, the Specially Defensive set, or hell, half the sets on http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/heatran in the first few months of the 4th gen?
tl;dr the point of comparing a Nitro set to Scarftran is to show that a set that completely outclasses the most popular set from 4th gen is worth a mention at the bare minimum in a 5th gen analysis.