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Heavy Offense

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August, you probably got haxed to death. :p

Well, now I can definitely say your team has trouble with stall. You saw me in that battle against Athiest Cult. It was pretty close (that crit in the end sealed it, not to mention other stuff, but it happens). It appears that it does put pressure on stall, but just not enough for the opponent to be really scared. Really, in the end, it comes down to who's better at prediction because I had to rely on Regirock (who should have survived that...) to take out the dragonite and Skarm and Rotom to weaken Mence. Really, though, he did a good job of keeping SR off the field which probably wouldn't have changed much anyway, as he put a lot of pressure on me. That's how this team should be played. :)
 
Gyarados can use Sub also (Return/Waterfall hits everything but Shedinja and Empoleon, right?), although you're probably better off with Taunt anyway because it stops phazing and enemy setup as well as status.
It's also worth noting that Sub is possibly useful on guys with Liechi or Petaya (Salac not as much, because it doesn't enhance your ability to make them dead nor does it generally give you as much Speed as you need), since it acts as both status protection AND the setup move for the set. This mostly only comes up with Empoleon or possibly Aggron, but it's at least worth considering when building new teams because it's a way to get +1 on Pokemon who can't otherwise stat-up, though it comes at the cost of added vulnerability to priority (hint: don't try it on guys who are weak to Bullet Punch).
 
MetaGross66 said:
August, you probably got haxed to death. :p

Well, now I can definitely say your team has trouble with stall. You saw me in that battle against Athiest Cult. It was pretty close (that crit in the end sealed it, not to mention other stuff, but it happens). It appears that it does put pressure on stall, but just not enough for the opponent to be really scared. Really, in the end, it comes down to who's better at prediction because I had to rely on Regirock (who should have survived that...) to take out the dragonite and Skarm and Rotom to weaken Mence. Really, though, he did a good job of keeping SR off the field which probably wouldn't have changed much anyway, as he put a lot of pressure on me. That's how this team should be played. :)
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Nah there was one crit on like 85% Gyara from -1 Dragonite but to be fair I couldn't do anything other than Roar, and I didn't even have Stealth Rock on the field.

Scarftar is a great way to shut down hyper offense when using stall and still offer great coverage vs other types of teams. It can come in and OHKO Azelf with Crunch (or Pursuit occasionally), revenge kill DDtar and Lucario with Superpower and OHKO Mence / Dragonite if they don't get a chance to boost. Scizor is the only one you can't straight up OHKO, but you have 5 other pokemon to cover Scizor completely fine.
 
august said:
Almost all HO has trouble with stall, I'm going to be completely honest when I say that I've lost to HO only once in over 10 times playing it on the ladder this month with stall (and i was outplayed badly when i lost, props to whoever Rule Brittania is) and even WITH entry hazards, your Spiker is going to have trouble with Forretress and you'd eventually be forced to carry a ghost, which'll slow down your momentum.

Just my quick two cents.
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Yea I find well-played stall is pretty hard to beat, especially semi-stall (which I run) with ScarfRachi, ScarfTar, or even both. Jirachi easily revenge kills the multitude of set-up sweepers HO offers, like Salamence, Gyarados, Scizor, Lucario, and possibly some I'm forgetting.
 
Hyper offense is simply set up for rest-talk curse regirock. Especially when paired with gliscor, Lucario won't be getting in your way anytime soon. It stops mixmence cold being able to switch in on D-meteor in SS and take the brickbreak/earthquake. Then, it can either rock slid or rest, though rock slide would be better in the case of a stall team seeing as you want it gone. The best part is, people stay in thinking they can KO it after Draco meteor. :p

The only problem I'm seeing with this combo is water types. T-spikes? Starmie takes care of that and does a number to stall as well. Is there a solution to this? I'm thinking Blissey over vappy but then I lose a pseudo hazer, gyara counter, and am set up for Suicune (t-spikes is nullified by crocune). It's quite difficult seeing as I have horrible team building skills, but great ideas...I just can't use them. Aside from that, my luck is just horrible.

HO would have some trouble with scarftar, but it won't be long to use the choiced attack to set up a sweeper which is why I don't like using choicers on most of my teams, but that just might be me.
 
Sprinkles said:
Yea I find well-played stall is pretty hard to beat, especially semi-stall (which I run) with ScarfRachi, ScarfTar, or even both. Jirachi easily revenge kills the multitude of set-up sweepers HO offers, like Salamence, Gyarados, Scizor, Lucario, and possibly some I'm forgetting.
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Any team with two scarfers is really annoying to play against. Its this that led me to build a WacanGyara team based around getting two Dragon Dances for Gyarados and proceeding to outpace and massacre the foe.
 
Ye-es, well played stall is hard to beat.

Also, teams with two scarfers are obnoxious. Especially when I'm not exactly paying attention and lose a Poke because I forget something's scarfed...oh well.

I REALLY like Heavy Offense. I often say I'd rather lose 6-0 by Heavy Offense than 6-0 by stall...of course I'd rather not lose 6-0 at all. Heavy Offense is wonderful for me, it creates a very fast paced metagame in which I love to play. Heavy Offense vs. Heavy Offense is really entertaining.

Heavy Offense vs. Stall = a WONDERFUL contrast of styles, that when well played equals, well, win.
 
I have to agree with people on both sides of this debate. While HO is certainly fun to play, it definitely has its disadvantages too, like losing to anything with too many case counters or too many revenge killers. Of course, every team loses to the things they are unprepared for, and HO used to have some advantages in that not many people knew about it, knew how to fight against, or knew what the standard team looks like. This is no longer so much the case, but HO is certainly still fun to play, and can beat all but the most prepared opponents. For people to come on and demean it simply because they beat it often isn't cool though (there hasnt been much of this in a while). The style has a simple strategy, but o does stall in many ways, and ceach team style takes an equal amount of thought to make and play, so to call it a degenerate style is naive.

that is my 2 cents :)
 
I agree with anachronism, HO has both advantages and disadvantages. With that being said, over the past couple weeks, HO has been gradually raising in usage. Because of that, more and more teams will employ Pokemon that are capable dealing with HO.
 
Out of curiosity, has anyone else here tried the new lead dragonite instead of azelf? I found it quite helpful not only against many other leads but even as a good answer to rotom-h (which are troublesome for ho teams) as I can draco meteor them. Yes, good players can get around it easily, but then again good players can retreat their lead and send out scarf-tar to kill your azelf lead, which means the scenario is still the same in the end. Here's a team I've been using lately with decent success (maybe 75% ratio):

Dragonite (analysis quiet one)
Gyarados
Kingdra
Agiligross
Lucario
Tyranitar

Since gyara/kingdra/agiligross and lucario are all walled by rotom, lead dragonite actually helps out as a late game revenge killer should it be kept alive. I believe thunderbolt from rotom doesn't manage more than 50% on it so yeah its plausible. Keep in mind that dracometeor hurts stuff like swampert, gliscor and hippowdon which are all troublesome to HO. Fire Blast will one shot skarmory too. So, what do you guys think about this lead dragonite on HO? Some feedback would be nice as this could assist HO teams :) (which I seem to see alot of these days on the ladder)
 
The style has a simple strategy, but o does stall in many ways, and ceach team style takes an equal amount of thought to make and play, so to call it a degenerate style is naive.
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I can't really say whether heavy offense really 'takes less skill' than other playstyles but to simply say that all styles are equal is more naive than anything. Instead of simply saying that 'it takes thought', you'd have to explain why, no?
Or simply ignore any complaint, since it's not as if there's anything wrong with playing the 'easy' way.
 
HO just tries too minimize "prediction", but that doesn't mean that it's an easier style of play. You still need to calculate your moves, like saving your 20% HP Lucario to revenge kill an opposing weakened Salamence. And you still need to think carefully, as letting an opposing Gyarados set up a DD may result into an automatic loss. Every style of play requires thought, and HO is no exception.
 
HO does require thought, as it has been pointed out, but it requires less prediction and more long-term thinking. When using heavy offense, you have to decide whether an enemy Poke is a threat requiring a sacrifice or setup fodder for something else.

For me, it is Prediction>Long-term thinking, but as prediction is (glorified) guesswork when it comes down to it, long term thinking is probably more effective as a philosophy to winning battles.

Just my 2 Marks (after hyperinflation...)
 
Playing HO really reminds me of when I used to play a RD team in the ladder; then again, RD teams are just another facet of HO teams. The main advantage that they had over your normal HO team is that they could really care less about scarfers. Ever since I retired my old RD team since it wasn't performing so good in the HGSS transition and started using my dragon HO team, I noticed that getting revenge killed is a lot easier now even with three DDers and a scarfed Flygon. I think that HO will either move toward boosting speed or using screens to set-up naturally bulky pokemon for a sweep.
 
It can go either way, game freak, though there aren't any pokemon that can reliably boost their speed outside of Ninjask and Yanmega. The same can be said for rain teams as they do have swift swimmers, but opposing weather makes this hard. I was thinking about abusing SS as the number of bulky waters in this metagame is currently pretty low. This makes it pretty easy to beat those common teams that rely on dragons like latias, as they are just set up for pokemon under the SS special defense boost.

Too bad Manaphy is going to change that. :(
 
@Sparko, I used the exact same team, but with Salamence over Gyarados and DDNite over "Anti-Lead Nite". it got me on the leaderboard, take that as you will. Really, though, I can't say it's better or worse than standard HO with an Azelf lead. Just a little bit less predictable I guess
 
Bilaterus said:
HO does require thought, as it has been pointed out, but it requires less prediction and more long-term thinking. When using heavy offense, you have to decide whether an enemy Poke is a threat requiring a sacrifice or setup fodder for something else.

For me, it is Prediction>Long-term thinking, but as prediction is (glorified) guesswork when it comes down to it, long term thinking is probably more effective as a philosophy to winning battles.

Just my 2 Marks (after hyperinflation...)
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I've been following this thread periodically but I haven't seen anybody post how an HO player decides what to sac/save in the early goings of a match. Scouting with an HO team is minimal and unless your opponent is switch-happy, there's bound to be a surprise waiting for you in the endgame. So how is long term thinking any "safer" than prediction in that sense?

Though I guess a well-constructed and well-played HO team will keep the momentum of the match in its favor such that the only surprises that could be a threat would be the oft-mentioned Scarf revenge-killers.
 
A team with the right resistance sets can easily set up and make the majority of a team blanks, and therefore the only real scouting you need to do is of their scarfers, and hopefully a wall or two. Mence/Dragonite really only fear scarfers.

Also, to anyone using my team, I recommend changing some of your items around, just to screw with people who know the team. Just change some lum berries to type resist berries or vise-versa. keep people on their toes. I have thought about giving one dragon a haban berry or yache berry, or one to each, or possibly using chople or shuca berry on ttar. There are a lot of options for messing with the usual counters. Get creative!
 
Would I be right in thinking that a HO can be compared to many Rain teams, considering how momentum must be built up, and you cannot let it go? And also (at least with me), sacing a Pokémon early on in a Rain sweep to soften a counter and for the long term effect is the same? If that is the case, I would greatly appreciate if someone could help me build a HO team, as my Rain team has had its day, and this seems to be the best thing to replace it.
 
Yes, I would argue that Rain teams are in principle simply a subset of HO, as they by nature are strongly redundant and their members are walled by the same couple of guys, they are very much momentum-dependent, they don't mess around with much switching or prediction, and they have a bunch of setup monsters that each tries to threaten the sweep. I have played around a little bit with OU Rain Dance and found it fundamentally decent (something like Azelf, Bronzong, SD Ludicolo, SD Kabutops, mixed Kingdra, Scizor/Lucario is more or less the way I've built it), but if you'd like to explore other kinds of HO you can borrow Ana's team from a couple pages back like half the ladder is doing, or if you want to PM me or try to catch me on Shoddy sometime I'd be willing to help you out, and I'm there are others in this thread who would as well.
 
I've decided to give regular HO a try and I have only lost one battle so far due to an unfortunate electivire speed boost given through metagross who got tricked by a bronzong. Anyway, it's good, and that's all that needs to be said. I'm actually suprised. Metagross handles most revengers well enough for the team to wreck. I haven't even used Salamence yet, I believe. The team is below. It might have some problems and I tried patching up most.

Aerodactyl (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk/6 Def/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Taunt
---
Scizor (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 32 HP/252 Atk/224 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bug Bite
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Swords Dance
---
Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 80 Atk/176 Spd/252 SAtk
Naughty nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
---
Infernape (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
- Mach Punch
---
Dragonite (M) @ Haban Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Outrage
---
Metagross @ Lum Berry
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 112 HP/252 Atk/12 Def/132 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Meteor Mash
- Thunderpunch
- Ice Punch
- Agility
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Oh, and Azelf isn't the only good HO lead, guys. ;)

I'm actually surprised DS Azelf would catch on, but subCM cune didn't....It's just so dangerous.

Edit: Heh, this started out as a team centered around SD scizor, and somehow it ended up like this. More people should be using it instead of CBzor IMO. It KOs offensive gyarados with bullet punch after +3 (intimidate) and SR.
 
_Apocalypse_ said:
Would I be right in thinking that a HO can be compared to many Rain teams, considering how momentum must be built up, and you cannot let it go? And also (at least with me), sacing a Pokémon early on in a Rain sweep to soften a counter and for the long term effect is the same? If that is the case, I would greatly appreciate if someone could help me build a HO team, as my Rain team has had its day, and this seems to be the best thing to replace it.
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Well, there's a number of ways to go with HO, but the overriding principle is that all team members must be walled/checked by similar things so that those walls can be overwhelmed. Also, your team must be constructed so that no opposing sweeper can set up on any of yours.

Physical Dragons: Use multiple Dragon-types, like Salamence and Dragonite, to beat Dragon counters (eg: Swampert, Hippowdon, Bronzong) and sweep. Since Physical Dragons already have strong wallbreaking capabilities, you can just throw on Steels for the rest of your team, like Scizor and Lucario.

Physical Others: My name. These are also known as 'Rotom walled teams', and use things like Scizor, Metagross, and Gyarados in tandem. Unfortunately, none of these dudes are killer wallbreakers, so you should consider using stuff like Infernape and Tyranitar if you don't want to rely on "Last Pokemon beat Skarm" as your wallbreaking strategy.

Physical Fighters: Currently in the experimental phase. Uses Fighting types with powerful Close Combats and various priority moves to defeat the foe, with things like Infernape, Lucario, and Gallade. I wouldn't suggest trying it until the kinks have been ironed out, as players are still trying to refine it so that most members are beaten by the same stuff rather than separate stuff.

Special Pokes: Basically the plan is to destroy Blissey with things like Azelf, Gengar, and Infernape and sweep with dudes like Empoleon. Runs into serious trouble with Latias, and as such has fallen out of favor.


Pick one of these archetypes, probably one of the first two, and the select a lead. DS Azelf is the most popular HO lead. Aerodactyl can also work and is good on teams with lots of Flying-types, and maybe Bronzong can work too.

Edit: Heh, this started out as a team centered around SD scizor, and somehow it ended up like this. More people should be using it instead of CBzor IMO. It KOs offensive gyarados with bullet punch after +3 (intimidate) and SR.
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I didn't know that, instead relying on SR + SD + Bug Bite + Bullet Punch. With this knowledge, I can go back to using Roost, which makes Scizor an effective wallbreaker since it can OHKO Skarm with a +4 LO Superpower, although you do have to rely on Scizor being the last Pokemon.
 
Class said:
@Sparko, I used the exact same team, but with Salamence over Gyarados and DDNite over "Anti-Lead Nite". it got me on the leaderboard, take that as you will. Really, though, I can't say it's better or worse than standard HO with an Azelf lead. Just a little bit less predictable I guess
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really? wow thats pretty good, I never thought of using a set up booster as a lead... my only concern is, what if their opposing lead explodes?
 
Sparko said:
really? wow thats pretty good, I never thought of using a set up booster as a lead... my only concern is, what if their opposing lead explodes?
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Well, go with maybe Agiligross, as an example. It has high defenses and a resistance to take an Explosion. Agiligross is a good example because it often functions as a lead anywaysm and can often trip up opponents. The only problem is that Fire-type leads are common, as is Swampert. Also other leads carry Focus Sash, and can it Metagross fairly hard with Earth Quake or Flamethrower.

Other possibilities are Gyarados and Salamence, due to Intimidate. I would be hesitant to use Salamence though, because it will probably be easy for your opponent to take out. Gyarados however has decent bulk and excellent typing to take certain hits; it also does a fairly effective job at countering today's current leads
 
Actually, it has a slight chance of OHKOing. It OHKOs with LO damage, though. I can't believe I got that lucky, though. I've actually OHKOed an offensive Gyarados with Scizor after SR damage. It's a 2.56% chance, according to libelldra. After some prior damage, though, it won't survive.

Oh, and you're forgetting bulky HO which was like a few pages back, though it really can use some experimenting. I believe it actually has potential, especially once Manaphy comes to OU.
 
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