My inability to nitpick even the smallest detail is making me feel weak...
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Heracross
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
Don't forget about arm thrust he can learn that too
Arm Thrust is outclassed by Close Combat like 99% of the time.
but still you dont get the def and spec def lower
There's a power difference of 45 between them, not factoring STAB. That's pretty significant.
Regardless, Arm Thrust is already mentioned in detail in the moves section of the analysis.
Regardless, Arm Thrust is already mentioned in detail in the moves section of the analysis.
Thanks so much man. And yea Arm Thrust is in AC, but it's weak asf so it's not getting any bigger of a mention.
Im skeptical about hippowdon as a counter, sure you can't 2 hit it with Pin missile, but in return Earthquake, or ice fang do a pathetic amount of damage, I think hippowdon just straight up loses to Heracross
for the record
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 195-230 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- approx. 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
for the record
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 195-230 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- approx. 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah and SunPunch Mega Heracross laughs at specially defensive Hippowdon, doing 72.8 - 85.7% and pulls off a guaranteed 2HKO against physically defensive Hippowdon, at 53.8 - 63.5%.
A Focus Punch also does 59.5 - 70.3% to Physically defensive Skarmory, allowing Rock Blast to have ~50% chance to finish off the rest of the Skarmory's health(and that's from full health. It also does 78.4 - 92.8% to Specially Defensive Skarmory. That's just ridiculous, with that wallbreaking power I still personally think that SubPunch deserves a set, but you guys may still disagree, idk.
For the Record
A Focus Punch has a 43.8% chance to OHKO a Physically Defensive Rotom-W after SR
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For a "well, duh" point, just add that it also triggers Rough Skin, Iron Barbs, and Iron Helmet...
Also, Close Combat allows it to finish off a weakened Skarmory as it does a respectable 48% to it, and Arm Thrust would lack the power to do so (and it would also trigger Rocky Helmet variants)
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
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Also, regarding the spreads, some suggestions could include at least 52 speed EVs to beat Jolly Azumarill in its base form (and tie those who outrun it). This speed also serves it to outrun uninvested Mega Venusaur and Heatran when Mega Evolved.
44 Special Defense EVs also make it harder to revenge kill by Genesect.
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I'm sorry but I have a hard time supporting Close Combat on Megacross, which should e replaced with Earthquake. Pin Missile with STAB is the strongest move it has already and its coverage with Fighting is pretty poor. Poison, Flying, Ghost AND Fairy resist both STAB moves. Both are also super effective against Dark. That is some severe redundancy. However Earthquake covers the Steel and Rock types Fighting would normally be used for while retaining Heracross's defenses. In addition you also hit Electric and Poison types super effectively and Fire if Rock Blast didn't cover that. Anything that both stabs would be neutral to Pin Missile always does more damage anyway. The only thing you can't hit super effective now are Normal types which is of no consequence. Need we forget Earthquake is required for Aegeslash.
Earthquake/Rock Blast/Pin Missile is by far your best coverage options considering Megacross's ability, stats and Fighting move options. This means you get a fourth slot for Bulk Up, Substitute, Swords Dance or Bullet Seed. Bulk Up makes you an insane tank, Swords Dance is better for compensating for being burned, and Bullet Seed can be amazing against Hippowdon and Suicune. It's also required if you want to safely 2HKO Keldeo. Bullet Seed is also required for Azumarill which is a clean OHKO. Bulk Up is overall pretty good too in this circumstance dropping +0 Play Rough all the way to max 70% damage with a single boost, which can't kill you in combination with one Aqua Jet. Then of course there's Rotom-W where only +0 Bullet Seed can 2HKO without attack boosts, but that's assuming you don't get burned.
So while Bullet Seed can be handy, it isn't superior to one of the boosting moves to help you muscle through everything in general. Close Combat is not beneficial to you in any of these circumstances. It can cleanly kill Chansey/Blissey at +0 but that isn't significant enough overall. Otherwise it can only potentially 2HKO Mega Aggron at +0 (252 HP / 0 Df), where Bulk Up/Swords Dance + Earthquake still gets the job done while preserving your defense. It just isn't that useful on Megacross with his bulk and speed and even Reversal which would be the same BP depends on you going second and Adamant still outspeeds most of these slow bulky walls.
So yeah, Earthquake over Close Combat bar none.
Earthquake/Rock Blast/Pin Missile is by far your best coverage options considering Megacross's ability, stats and Fighting move options. This means you get a fourth slot for Bulk Up, Substitute, Swords Dance or Bullet Seed. Bulk Up makes you an insane tank, Swords Dance is better for compensating for being burned, and Bullet Seed can be amazing against Hippowdon and Suicune. It's also required if you want to safely 2HKO Keldeo. Bullet Seed is also required for Azumarill which is a clean OHKO. Bulk Up is overall pretty good too in this circumstance dropping +0 Play Rough all the way to max 70% damage with a single boost, which can't kill you in combination with one Aqua Jet. Then of course there's Rotom-W where only +0 Bullet Seed can 2HKO without attack boosts, but that's assuming you don't get burned.
So while Bullet Seed can be handy, it isn't superior to one of the boosting moves to help you muscle through everything in general. Close Combat is not beneficial to you in any of these circumstances. It can cleanly kill Chansey/Blissey at +0 but that isn't significant enough overall. Otherwise it can only potentially 2HKO Mega Aggron at +0 (252 HP / 0 Df), where Bulk Up/Swords Dance + Earthquake still gets the job done while preserving your defense. It just isn't that useful on Megacross with his bulk and speed and even Reversal which would be the same BP depends on you going second and Adamant still outspeeds most of these slow bulky walls.
So yeah, Earthquake over Close Combat bar none.
Actually Clefable isn't a good one if it switches into Rock Blast:
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 175-210 (44.4 - 53.2%) -- approx. 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Skarmory is alright to mention. Clefable works as a check I suppose.
To be honest, Skarmory is even somewhat of a shaky counter because it's actually 2HKOed by an Adamant CC after Stealth Rock. Clefable tends to run Magic Guard which keeps it from being 2HKOed by Rock Blast on the switch due to SR, but it's more reliable than Skarmory because of that. Both will still be mentioned however.
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 175-210 (44.4 - 53.2%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Jaroda, I believe the biggest draw when using Heracross is its ability to essentially annihilate most defensive/slow/stall teams with its insanely high Attack and powerful STAB Close Combat. This allows it to run completely over Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Chansey, Heatran, etc. Pokemon that even resist it in an attempt to revenge Heracross, such as Zapdos and Latias, take a huge hit. It's more or less spammable I guess you can say, something that Earthquake does not live up to.
Unaware Clefable most always runs wish protect. So assuming Clefable protects the first run it is able, followed by wish or moonblast, Clefable will have a better chance than that of surviving. Unless I'm forgetting something Hera would need to crit without SR and would need to do 100% total damage to kill Clefable given SR and two turns of leftovers recovery. That should put it at a rather low percent chance, something like 20-25% (without crits). Lastly, I'll add that Clefable has the option to try for a second protect if there is a crit on any of the hits from the first rock blast in order to try and avoid a certain 2HKO. There are of course many opportunities for Rock Blast to Crit... so Clefable is definitely still a check but still not a bad one.
Yeah pretty much what Fuzznip said, sorry that I couldn't respond to you earlier. Although the extra coverage from Bullet Seed may seem tempting, the sheer amount of power that Close Combat gives to Mega Heracross is almost foolish to give up. Besides, it allows Mega Heracross to actually 2HKO physically defensive Skarmory on the switch, which is something that I don't think is really worth giving up for a little extra coverage against Azumarill or Suicune (this Pokemon isn't even that relevant). It also demolishes Ferrothorn, and Air Balloon Heatran which is a very legitimate threat. Remember that Mega Heracross's biggest niche is as a wallbreaker because of its amazing ability to basically dismantle almost any kind of defensive core imaginable due to its immense power and coverage. Bullet Seed, while letting it hit Azumarill and Hippowdon harder, forces Cross to take away Close Combat which is essential in breaking through Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and other very bulky Steel-types that aren't hit super effectively by EQ. This is why CC is staying, and why you'd be foolish to give up a 180 BP Fighting-type move that breaks down one of its greatest counters, Skarmory, for the ability to hit a few more Pokemon harder.
Why doesn't offensive Megacross run more HP? What is it outspeeding, currently? Base 75 isn't a tier that pretty much anyone else is in, so at the very least it can go down to base 70's without significant problem. And since the most relevant base 70, breloom, is handled pretty easily anyhow, you could arguably go even lower.
I'm only leaving it as 252 for now until QC and I can come up with a more suitable EV spread if need be. ATM, Max Speed is used just for safety.
I actually was not advocating Bullet Seed but Earthquake if you take another look. What I ultimately recommended was EQ, Rock Blast, Pin Missle and Swords Dance/Bulk Up. Aegeslash is number 5 in XY OU from December. Skarmory is 18, still high of course. Swords Dance allows him to also shread Sub Gliscor and Landorus-T with Rock Blast.
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 255-305 (72 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
That Sub is going down. He can't Toxic stall Megacross and you never see Acrobatics anymore.
+1 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 325-385 (85 - 100.7%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. -1 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 129-153 (35.4 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Admittedly Landorus can't really do anything but try to rack up Intimidate, but Close Combat hurts more than it helps here with Landorus-T resisting a -1 CC and able to EQ a -1 Megacross also. As for Ferrothorn.
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 350-420 (99.4 - 119.3%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 336-396 (95.4 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Yeah you might OHKO Ferro on the switch, which I'm not sure why it'd bother switching in, by why risk those Defense drops and Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet damage? Pin Missle has a great chance of OHKO and will with Stealth Rock and isn't a contact move, you come out much safer overall.
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 375-440 (103 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 Pin Missile also always OHKOs any Mega Venusaur.
Of the four Fuzznip mentioned CC is the most useful against Skarmory and Balloon Heatran. Chansey has no business switching into, or staying in, on Megacross and +2 Pin Missile also OHKOs and hes faster too. And remember, anything that Fighting and Bug are both on equal type terms, Pin Missile always does more damage than Close Combat, and there are no defense penalties. Zapdos and Latias were mentioned and Zapdos resists both Fighting and Bug equally, where Pin Missile still out damages, and Pin Missile is super effective on Latias. I'm not seeing enough scenarios where CC is essential. As for Steels, CC is a safer option against certain Balloon Heatran and Excadrill as well as Skarmory, Genesect and Forretress. Earthquake is for Klefki, Aegeslash and Mega Mawile, and Swords Dance + Earthquake is safer than accumulating defense drops on Mega Aggron. Here, let's look at the top 50 pokemon in OU from December and determine where CC is always your best option.
Rotom W - No
Talonflame - No
Lucario - No, Earthquake always OHKOs anyway.
Genesect - Yes
Aegeslash - No
Heatran - Air Balloon yes, otherwise no
Garchomp - No
Greninja - No
Scizor - No, CC can't OHKO, Rock Blast is safer 2HKO.
Excadrill - Air Balloon yes, otherwise EQ
Ferrothorn - No, See above
Gliscor - No
Tyranitar - No, Pin Missile always OHKOs
Azumarill - No
Dragonite - No
Gengar - No
Charizard - No
Skarmory - Yes
Landorus-T - No
Espeon - No
Alakazam - No
Gyarados - No
Conkeldurr - Yes
Breloom - No
Venusaur - No
Mandibuzz - No
Trevenant - No
Kangaskhan - N/A
Mamoswine - Yes, but Pin Missile can OHKO with Stealth Rock
Volcarona - No
Togekiss - No
Goodra - No
Latios - No
Infernape - No
Cloyster - No, Rock Blast is 94% OHKO without Rocks.
Thundurus - No
Blissey - Yes, but see Chansey scenario.
Donphan - No
Pinsir - No
Klefki - No
Jirachi - No
Mawile - No
Starmie - No
Sableye - No
Clefable - No
Sylveon - No
Forretress - No, CC has 1% OHKO chance with Leftovers, 33% without. Anything boosted is better.
Tentacruel - No
Bisharp - No, EQ OHKOs
Landorus - No
That's only 7 instances where Close Combat is your best option, but two are conditional and two more the same or better result is achieved with Swords Dance/Pin Missile or Earthquake. I'm not seeing the value here. So either use all four attacks to cover your bases, but if you have to use only three attacks, take CC out.
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It's already there. Reread it and you should find it instantly.
I reread the usage tips section and there is absolutely no mention of Heracross not having to Mega Evolve immediately.
- Moxie is the preferred ability because if Heracross manages to KO something before it Mega Evolves, it can obtain a free +1 and become instantly more terrifying
- Guts on the other hand keeps Heracross from being completely useless if happens to get burned or paralyzed
Speeds to go for:
220 Jolly to speed creep DD Gyarados trying to outspeed 252+ Jolteon (this is literally only as high as you should go; 252 Jolly is just a straight up waste of 32 EVs). This outspeeds 252 neutral base 80s.
204 Adamant to beat 0 spe Celebi (this is probably the fastest thing to run 0 spe)
92 Adamant to beat 0 spe Rotom-W
I can't really think of any other more relevant speed tiers to hit.