Here Comes The Sun!

Byrn Dragonstone said:
I don't necessarily use it as my dragon counter (though it walls Garchomp completely) as more of my physical wall. HP Ice is used due to the amount of Latios/other Dragons that switch in to try and wall me. And since I only run one Chlorophyll pokemon (Venusaur) it doesn't add any extra weaknesses to my team. Since it is a sun team the Regen/Wall part surprises a lot of people, as they think to switch in and eat a Sleep Powder to the face.

Tangrowth over Cresselia for me, as with no investment it hits harder, and the typing is better for physical walling then Psychic. Blissey is used as my Special Wall, and together Tangrowth and Blissey form an impressive defensive core that is hard to break. Tangrowth also boasts being able to go toe to toe with any sand sweeper and winning so....


Also I have recently tried Eruption Flash Fire Typhlosion and I am extremely impressed with it. Choice Specs Eruption has allowed me to take out half of the enemies team without a flash fire boost, and when it does get it it becomes a monster. Solar Beam/Focus Blast/Overheat provide coverage moves. Overheat is for when I start to run low on health.
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That makes more sense lol, I guess I was seeing your choice out of context. I'm still not sure I'd use a Regeneration Tangrowth on Sun though - I'd probably do a fast SubSeeding or Synthesis variant with Chlorophyll if I did use it. It does exacerbate your weaknesses if you have Venusaur, however, but may not do so to a awful extent, especially with Blissey.

Since Cress has Reflect and greater physical defence and HP to start with, it can invest less in them and more in SpAtk to bring it's offences up to par (especially as Ice Beam has better BP than HP Ice). Reflect to some extent offsets its poor typing, which is nice. Basically Im just saying this as I just don't want others to dismiss Cress out of hand as a physical wall, though it may not suit your team well.

Tyhplosion is something I've tried quite a lot, but I could never really make it work. Coming in without being statused or taking damage is pretty damn difficult, despite being able to force most steels out, and this makes Eruption drop in power to a point where other Fire type's Fire Blast would hit similarly hard. Do you utilise anything in particular to help him get in, and if not what are his best free switches he can fire off his Nuke-esque Eruption on?
 
Benlisted said:
That makes more sense lol, I guess I was seeing your choice out of context. I'm still not sure I'd use a Regeneration Tangrowth on Sun though - I'd probably do a fast SubSeeding or Synthesis variant with Chlorophyll if I did use it. It does exacerbate your weaknesses if you have Venusaur, however, but may not do so to a awful extent, especially with Blissey.

Since Cress has Reflect and greater physical defence and HP to start with, it can invest less in them and more in SpAtk to bring it's offences up to par (especially as Ice Beam has better BP than HP Ice). Reflect to some extent offsets its poor typing, which is nice. Basically Im just saying this as I just don't want others to dismiss Cress out of hand as a physical wall, though it may not suit your team well.
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I tried Chlorophyll Tangrowth and it ended up being outspeed and killed more often then not. Regen allows it to come in and wall more often. I run a set of Sleep Powder/Giga Drain/Sunny Day/HP Ice. The biggest thing this set allows is the setting up of Sun if Ninetales dies, or is up against something it is danger of dying against. Sleep allows me to cripple something, then bring in Venu and set up.

I have tried Cress, and it is generally Tyranitar bait for me. And since my team doesn't like Tyranitar to begin with, adding a pokemon that can't hurt it and only allows it to set up really doesn't help me at all. I might try it on a Sun Stall team though, combined with Leaf Guard Meganium/Tangrowth it would make an interesing core, especially since Moonlight becomes a lot better under the sun.

Tyhplosion is something I've tried quite a lot, but I could never really make it work. Coming in without being statused or taking damage is pretty damn difficult, despite being able to force most steels out, and this makes Eruption drop in power to a point where other Fire type's Fire Blast would hit similarly hard. Do you utilise anything in particular to help him get in, and if not what are his best free switches he can fire off his Nuke-esque Eruption on?
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I run a Forretress/Typhlosion core that has great synergy. Forretress blows away the Entry Hazards then Typhlosion comes in and absorbs the Fire move aimed at Forretress. Sturdy means I can scout the move the enemy is going to use, which makes predicting easier.
 
Byrn Dragonstone said:
I run a Forretress/Typhlosion core that has great synergy. Forretress blows away the Entry Hazards then Typhlosion comes in and absorbs the Fire move aimed at Forretress. Sturdy means I can scout the move the enemy is going to use, which makes predicting easier.
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That's probably a good idea - I was running in in OU not DW and so had no Flash Fire to abuse.. I wouldn't recommend using Sturdy to scout a Fire move though - often if a TTar or something uses Fire Blast to knock you down to 1 HP, they'll fire off a SE or EQ to finish you off since it has more power and coverage on switchins, decimating Typhlosion.
 
I'm not a fan of Chlorophyll Tangrowth (or I am, actually, as I don't run Sun too often and it is easier to check, IMO). It is so slow that even with Jolly and Max Speed, it hits a mere 436 Spe under the sun - outsped by Scarf Rotom. I'd like some more speed with something that has such low special bulk.
 
IcyMan28 said:
I'm not a fan of Chlorophyll Tangrowth (or I am, actually, as I don't run Sun too often and it is easier to check, IMO). It is so slow that even with Jolly and Max Speed, it hits a mere 436 Spe under the sun - outsped by Scarf Rotom. I'd like some more speed with something that has such low special bulk.
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Chlorophyll Evo Stone Tangela gives you considerably more Special bulk and some extra Spe too, so if running a SubSeed or wall Tangrowth in Sun it's always an option. Problem is it's low attack, making the Growth set more effective on Tangrowth, since it can use Power Whip and EQ effectively. Tangrowth may not have fantastic speed under sun, but if fast scarfers are covered by another teammember (Sawsbuck for instance) then running Tangrowth can be perfectly viable.
 
IcyMan28 said:
I'm not a fan of Chlorophyll Tangrowth (or I am, actually, as I don't run Sun too often and it is easier to check, IMO). It is so slow that even with Jolly and Max Speed, it hits a mere 436 Spe under the sun - outsped by Scarf Rotom. I'd like some more speed with something that has such low special bulk.
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I don't really mind being outsped by Scarf Rotom too much. Rotom can't do squat to my team anyway (Rotom-W's second STAB is halved in sun, Rotom-H is walled by Heatran) so it's not that big a deal.

Tangrowth tanks physical hits like a monster. The amount of times someone has brought in a Scizor when Tangrowth is at under half HP only for me to live and OHKO with HP Fire is amazing. I'm considering swapping out for Venusaur once again though. They both have positives and negatives.
 
I'm not too keen on running regeneration tangrowth on a sun team, but a bulky speedy chlorophyll set sounds great. You get the 101 subs and high base attacking stats to work with. Unfortunately, you get dat special defense and a pokemon who causes your team to lose to CM Reuniclus (every subseeder save for jumpluff does, I'll be fair.)

I can't run cresselia. Forget about being nuetered in the sand and causing at least one third of your team to be weak to tyranitar, she's setup fodder for way too much this gen. See a butterfly dance volcorona on your opponent's team preview? Congrats. Until that thing is dead, you're playing with a team of only five pokemon unless you want to lose to it. Bulk up/DD Scrafty? It doesn't matter what cress set you're running...psycho shift...calm mind, that thing is going to set up one you. If I could run dual screens while using calm mind, psycho shock, moonlight, sunny day, and hidden power fighting, I would love Cress. But sadly, I can't. I've had better luck using a magic mirror espeon, who had sunny day in its moveset, had the power to actually kill tyranitar in the sun with hp fighting, wasn't setup fodder for any pokemon (pretty sure I was running roar at times), and could live for long periods of time with morning sun. Even with dual screens, Cress is still going to become setup fodder for the things your sun sweepers will still find themselves losing to...

For Blaziken, I've personally started running Regen Slowbro. Get in on the sword's dance and go for the kill with psychic. Or thunderwave if I think he's gonna switch out and don't want to take a chance. Critical hit shadow claw means he loses, but he saves me from blaziken more often than he fails against him. Before him, I was running a jumpluff to take care of him. And if jumpluff didn't switch in on sword's dance, then I would have to sac half my team until Arcanine (he's wonderful Ben) could priority him. At least with Slowbro, I feel safer handling the physical variants.

MixKen? I'm out on my ass.

Edit: Shandera in DW meant you couldn't run evo stone tangela at all, but it's done a fine job for me otherwise. When reuniclus' popularity spiked, I had to start running friggin power share just to stand a chance...making it hard to find room for what I was already running.
 
alphatron said:
I can't run cresselia. Forget about being nuetered in the sand and causing at least one third of your team to be weak to tyranitar, she's setup fodder for way too much this gen. [...] If I could run dual screens while using calm mind, psycho shock, moonlight, sunny day, and hidden power fighting, I would love Cress. But sadly, I can't. I've had better luck using a magic mirror espeon, who had sunny day in its moveset, had the power to actually kill tyranitar in the sun with hp fighting, wasn't setup fodder for any pokemon (pretty sure I was running roar at times), and could live for long periods of time with morning sun. Even with dual screens, Cress is still going to become setup fodder for the things your sun sweepers will still find themselves losing to...

For Blaziken, I've personally started running Regen Slowbro. Get in on the sword's dance and go for the kill with psychic. Or thunderwave if I think he's gonna switch out and don't want to take a chance. Critical hit shadow claw means he loses, but he saves me from blaziken more often than he fails against him. Before him, I was running a jumpluff to take care of him. And if jumpluff didn't switch in on sword's dance, then I would have to sac half my team until Arcanine (he's wonderful Ben) could priority him. At least with Slowbro, I feel safer handling the physical variants. MixKen? I'm out on my ass.
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I really haven't had too much of an issue with Cress being setup fodder to be honest - maybe it's cos I run Sawsbuck who outspeeds the universe and Arcanine with Extremespeed who can revenge most things, but yeah. Psychic+Hp Fight gets alright coverage aside from opposing Psychics, preventing a lot of things setting up. Volcarona is the main issue, but Arcanine walls most of them pretty hard even at +1, with HP Rock or Ground barely standing a chance of OHKOing with Timid (and some don't even carry it). Extremespeed deals with any that got hit by SR (most it seems in my team's case) whilst Flare Blitz can decimate any, at the cost of Arc's life. Sawsbuck can revenge it at +1 too, and Tales can Toxic it to wear it down (Toxic is really underrated on her). But yeah, even say Latios coming in are walled hard when you have +1 SpDef and Moonlight to stall out DM, so it's physical sweepers (tbh I can't think of many who like coming in aside from Scizor, who again Arc laughs at) or Reuniclus you need worry about, and there's few who don't take neutral damage from one of psychic or fighting. Dragons who are neutral to psychic can try to DD up on you, but aside from Sawsbuck and Arc, Moonlight for recovery and +1 Psychic wearing them down generally does a reasonable job of keeping most at bay.

Slowbro seems like a nice option, I may try it at some point. Boosted Flamethrowers are especially useful, and Regen is just great. Espeon less so, I don't like having to rely on perfect prediction to keep hazards away, and like using Forry for various reasons.
 
What about Victreebel? Seems like the perfect cleanup chlorophyll sweeper since it can run weather ball+hp ice, letting it hit steels other than heatran and dragons simultaneously. It can even run sucker punch for threats like lati@s, and it has a decent base atk.
 
Kenshiro said:
What about Victreebel? Seems like the perfect cleanup chlorophyll sweeper since it can run weather ball+hp ice, letting it hit steels other than heatran and dragons simultaneously. It can even run sucker punch for threats like lati@s, and it has a decent base atk.
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One issue is its bulk, or lack thereof, and another its mediocre base speed, meaning it often has to run +Spe and lose out on power if it wants to beat certain things (ScarfChomp I think). Secondly, running HP Ice, Weather Ball and Grass STAB means opposing Fires wall you to hell, and swapping Grass for Poison STAB means Heatran still does and opposing waters give you a hard time (Water/Grounds especially). Essentially, the coverage being able to run Fire and Ice gives isn't too great, and Shiftry has a more powerful Sucker Punch. It's not bad whatsoever, but personally that's why I don't use it.
 
I meant mostly as a 4-attack cleanup mon more than a growth-booster, but your point still stands. I only bring it up because it gets the best 4-move coverage out of all the chlorophyll sweepers, and it has the stats to run a mixed set.
 
Kenshiro said:
I meant mostly as a 4-attack cleanup mon more than a growth-booster, but your point still stands. I only bring it up because it gets the best 4-move coverage out of all the chlorophyll sweepers, and it has the stats to run a mixed set.
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Yeah, that's what I hypothesised it could be used for too (if only it got Nature Power!) as it's good mixed stats make it seem like a good cleaner. Problem is, I think Mebukijika's good coverage and epic speed means it outclasses it in that role, and Venusaur beats it as a Chlorophyll sweeper due to having bulk to actually be able to Grpwth without dying :/.
 
Victreebel runs a better mixed set than Mebu and isn't walled by the likes of Gliscor and Skarmory. That's the main appeal I'm seeing here. Scarfchomp is still somewhat common, so being forced to run a +speed nature kind of hurts his damage output.

For Cress, I dunno. I might try her again one of these days if I feel that I need her. Maybe I was just doing it wrong. What set should I run? Calm Mind, Moonlight, Ice Beam, and Psycho shock/hp fighting? I don't like being unable to hit the pokemon who wants to set up in front of cresselia, and I'm not in dire need of screens at the moment.

I tried that bulky chlorophyll tangrowth seeder set that I wanted to. It was fun. It's like a speedy and powerful subseeder who almost reminds me of shaymin-S without the air slash. Unfortunately, he's outspeeded by choice scarf everything and is setup fodder for reuniclus.
 
alphatron said:
For Cress, I dunno. I might try her again one of these days if I feel that I need her. Maybe I was just doing it wrong. What set should I run? Calm Mind, Moonlight, Ice Beam, and Psycho shock/hp fighting? I don't like being unable to hit the pokemon who wants to set up in front of cresselia, and I'm not in dire need of screens at the moment..
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I've been using a more specially defensive version of the Cresselia posted in the OP. It has saved me many times against baton pass teams by paralyzing the sweeper. Moonlight makes it an amazing tank in the sun, Reflect lets my sweepers set up more easily and offsets its lesser defense, and Ice Beam is great against Dragons and SS sweepers. It is bulky enough to survive a +4 Dragon Pulse from a Latios and takes around 35% from Scarf Latios' Draco Meteor.

Edit: Ignore the +4 calc. The Latios I faced didn't have standard EVs.
 
In my mad Volcarona obsession, I've come to love Starmie as my Rapid Spinner. On my Sun team. Sacrilege, I know, but I find it effective. Here's what I run:

Starmie @ Life Orb
Timid; 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt
-Rapid Spin
-Hidden Power [Fire]

I replaced Hydro Pump with Hidden Power Fire after I constantly had Ferrothorn switching into me only to set up hazards I'd just spun away. In the sun, Starmie's Hidden Power Fire will do a whopping 96.6% - 113.6% to the standard 252/196 Sassy Ferrothorn Spiker, meaning if it came in on any other move, it's down. In all my battles, I've only had one person switch out their Ferrothorn as I "fired off" Hidden Power, so it still has fair surprise value. While I've missed Hydro Pump to kill things like Hippowdon and the occasional lead Infernape/Blaziken, Thunderbolt usually suffices, and I sure don't miss the literal misses that accompany Hydro Pump (especially with my luck). Starmie on a sun team makes a tolerable status absorber with Natural Cure (looking at you, Toxic Spikes), and can be a decent check to the genies, of which Tornadus and Thundurus are the most common - and threatening when coming from Rain teams. The threat of Hydro Pump is usually enough to scare things out anyway, which is the main point. Starmie rarely lets me down, even with Sun in the background.
 
I can attest to Starmie being a great rapid spinner in the sun and I run almost exactly the same set (I run psychic since it kills Gengar and Blaziken, and I'm more worried about the likes of them than I am jellicient). My only gripe is perhaps HP Fire being unable to ohko ferrothorn without the sun. I found that out the hard way.

Since playing sun teams, I've been trying to find the perfect sun sweeper or perfect team of sun sweepers. What's our Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo combo? Do we even have one? I tried Blaziken and Venusaur but Blaziken's lack of immeadiate speed and their shared weaknesses to flying and psychic sucked. While the shared resistances to common priority was nice, I wanted something better.

It seems as though most of our Chlorophyll sweepers have moveslot syndrome or just can't set up. Shiftry runs from fighting attacks everywhere and can't set up on anything. Leafeon, Leavanny, and Sawsbuck are all walled by the likes of Skarmory, steels in general, and to an extent, Gliscor. Since losing giga drain (I'm never going to get over this), Venusaur is now walled by Blissey in addition to Heatran. Victreebel can choose to be walled by either dragons or Heatran.

I'm mainly asking this because my most recent and most successful sun team has no chlorophyll sweepers at all. And the one before it just had a chlorophyll jumpluff as the only chloro poke.
 
Sun will probably never have something as good as Kingdra as its pokes either get a boosted STAB or doubled speed. Venusaur with Giga Drain comes close, so if that is released it'll be a great boon. Blaziken does likewise as he gets Speed Boost and with Screens can tear through teams with Flare Blitz.

The Chlorophyll sweepers do all have issues. Venusaur is easily the best for being bulky and actually able to set up whilst resisting priority. Tangrowth is excellent if you eliminate opposing scarfers, and Sawsbuck is if you eliminate opposing Mach Punchers. I don't think moveslot syndrome is as much of an issue as most things are walled by similar amounts of things - Heatran and Chandelure are the only things walling Venusaur for example - and a team can get around them reasonably well if you design it to. Shiftry seems awesome in theory and similar to Sawsbuck but I've not used it, ask SJCrew about it since I believe he's used it on his Sun team. Fire types are SR weak and/or frail and slow (not a single fire type hits over 100 base speed but Infernape and Rapidash), meaning you have to give them the right support for them to sweep.

That said, I don't think a team of sweepers like Rain could do is the way to go. Offense rather than pure HO works nicely with Sun, since most of its sweepers have different weaknesses as opposed to the same (very few) ones Rain had, so you can build nicer synergy.
 
I could sit here and hope for a grass/fire or grass/dragon type with chlorophyll, but I'll have to accept that you are indeed correct. Perhaps we'll never obtain that offensive core on sun teams and will just have to deal with what we have.

I've used shiftry before. He's great aside from being unable to set up and priority users. I'll give him another shot if I find a way to properly build a team around him.

Guess all that's left for sun is MH illumise to baton pass growth to our sweepers of choice when released...
 
Benlisted said:
Sun will probably never have something as good as Kingdra as its pokes either get a boosted STAB or doubled speed. Venusaur with Giga Drain comes close, so if that is released it'll be a great boon. Blaziken does likewise as he gets Speed Boost and with Screens can tear through teams with Flare Blitz.

The Chlorophyll sweepers do all have issues. Venusaur is easily the best for being bulky and actually able to set up whilst resisting priority. Tangrowth is excellent if you eliminate opposing scarfers, and Sawsbuck is if you eliminate opposing Mach Punchers. I don't think moveslot syndrome is as much of an issue as most things are walled by similar amounts of things - Heatran and Chandelure are the only things walling Venusaur for example - and a team can get around them reasonably well if you design it to. Shiftry seems awesome in theory and similar to Sawsbuck but I've not used it, ask SJCrew about it since I believe he's used it on his Sun team. Fire types are SR weak and/or frail and slow (not a single fire type hits over 100 base speed but Infernape and Rapidash), meaning you have to give them the right support for them to sweep.
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just quoting for informing that there is also simisear that has 101 base speed and though surpasses the 100 base speed limit...
 
I've found Sawsbuck to be an incredible asset from where I am on the ladder (1162 ish at this time. Kinda blah...), and he's the only Chloro-user that I run at the time. This is mainly because of my moth craze, again, keeping me from other things. Sawsbuck can be a great anti-opposing weather check, keeping all of the other weather inducers from wanting to switch in with common moves it carries. Volcarona is an awesome pseudo-staller for certain special moves with the bulky set and Morning Sun, so long as you're away from Toxic and Trick. Sun teams tend to hate Flying-moves, though. With things like Blaziken, Sawsbuck, Venusaur, and Volcarona (for me) that are on Sun teams, stuupid special-attacking Tornadus can have its way with you if you're not in control of the weather at the time... I hate the genies...
 
Growth Chlorophyll Venusaur is a nightmare under the sun and Heatran walling him is of so little consequence when you realize that if he didn't Venusaur would just about run everything in the game into the ground. It really is not hard packing something just for running Heatran down at all, considering how easily Venusaur gets in and sets up. .
 
does anyone have suggestions for a sunstall team? im currently running forry for rapid spin and spikes support, vaporeon for wish passing, meganium as a cleric and dual screens, jumpluff for subseeding, and gorrugo for spin blocking but I always get into trouble with set-up sweepers, ESPECIALLY those behind subs.
 
shofly12 said:
does anyone have suggestions for a sunstall team? im currently running forry for rapid spin and spikes support, vaporeon for wish passing, meganium as a cleric and dual screens, jumpluff for subseeding, and gorrugo for spin blocking but I always get into trouble with set-up sweepers, ESPECIALLY those behind subs.
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Power Swap on Tales makes her less setup fodder. Jumpluff should be able to deal with most if you're ballsy enough to switch in and Encore their Sub or setup move, Vappy could run Roar (or give something else roar, maybe a Heatran?).
 
Jumpluff can run aromatherapy just like meganium and can easily fit the move onto a subseed set. I also don't see stall teams making a grand use of dual screens so you can ditch meganium altogether for something else. Unaware Curse/Stockpile quagsire works very well. Specially defensive Heatran is also a great phazer if you want to try him out.

Edit: brb, gonna try Gorebyss baton passing to fire types on sun teams
 
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