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Here Comes The Sun!
- Thread starter IcyMan28
- Start date
Was having problems with hazards so I've been running this Xatu on the PO serve, should probably play on smogon, but I wanted to practice my game up first.
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Xatu (M) @ Light Clay
Trait: Magic Mirror
EVs: 120 HP / 136 Def / 252 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Wish
- U-turn
Just seems to ruin a lot of traditional leads, and allows me to setup the correct screen, and even wish pass. U-Turn coming off of 186 attack is pretty bad but it is generally safer than just switching.
Defesive EVs aren't optimal as I haven't done calcs, the amount is for wish size and so it's slightly harder for him to be seismic tossed to death at 301 hp.
Having something that can switch in on earthquake has been a huge boon as has the hesitation my opponents show in regards to using their annoyers against me, I'm taking way less residual damage overall+healing.
I'm really missing my offensive punch though, I'm basically running a stall core now with Xatu/Slowbro/and a Sub/Disable/Toxic Ninetails.
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Xatu (M) @ Light Clay
Trait: Magic Mirror
EVs: 120 HP / 136 Def / 252 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Wish
- U-turn
Just seems to ruin a lot of traditional leads, and allows me to setup the correct screen, and even wish pass. U-Turn coming off of 186 attack is pretty bad but it is generally safer than just switching.
Defesive EVs aren't optimal as I haven't done calcs, the amount is for wish size and so it's slightly harder for him to be seismic tossed to death at 301 hp.
Having something that can switch in on earthquake has been a huge boon as has the hesitation my opponents show in regards to using their annoyers against me, I'm taking way less residual damage overall+healing.
I'm really missing my offensive punch though, I'm basically running a stall core now with Xatu/Slowbro/and a Sub/Disable/Toxic Ninetails.
For your EVs use this, it's incredibly useful and you can do it even for offensive mons. As is you should have max HP for best overall bulk, especially given you want to be passing bigger wishes and you're using Screens. Choose which defence you want to be bigger and use that nature, then put the last few EVs in the other Def.
I've always considered Xatu but the added weakness to TTar puts me off. Do you find you have trouble against the Sand behemoth given your core is all pretty vulnerable to it?
Generally max hp is best I know, xatu has terrible defenses though, and he gets slightly more physical bulk with my ev split at the expense of special bulk/weaker wishes. Higher defenses are better with screens however, and I can't really cut much from speed evs. I really just need to run calcs on a wide variety of threats and see what the ideal numbers are. I expect to be ohko'd against anything that super effectively hits me on the special side either way if I don't have a screen up.
I run Infernape with mach punch/close combat and Blaziken, I can switch in on a resisted crunch or stone edge and ko generally. Scarftar gives me more issues because of the speed and I can't setup a screen on him with Xatu in because stone edge is a sure ohko unless it misses, and crunch is around 45%~ chance to do so.
That calculator tells me to go pure defense with the evs I have left and leave hp alone minus the 4 points. Need to figure out what I won't outspeed/speed tie with if I drop some speed.
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Any ideas on beating trick room or Reuniclus? I don't really know how to counter either without drastically changing things. I got 6-0 swept one time and in general it takes a lot to take it down, usually requires me already having sun up and just barely killing it.
I run Infernape with mach punch/close combat and Blaziken, I can switch in on a resisted crunch or stone edge and ko generally. Scarftar gives me more issues because of the speed and I can't setup a screen on him with Xatu in because stone edge is a sure ohko unless it misses, and crunch is around 45%~ chance to do so.
That calculator tells me to go pure defense with the evs I have left and leave hp alone minus the 4 points. Need to figure out what I won't outspeed/speed tie with if I drop some speed.
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Any ideas on beating trick room or Reuniclus? I don't really know how to counter either without drastically changing things. I got 6-0 swept one time and in general it takes a lot to take it down, usually requires me already having sun up and just barely killing it.
Actually if you put in that you only have 256 EVs left and tell it you want balanced defences, you get out max HP. If you want greater defensive bulk then fair play, but max HP will serve you much better even with screens, much like Dusclops prefers max HP and split the remaining EVs than maxed out defences.
Haha, with both Fighting-types fair enough, TTar will not be too bad for you. Your team sounds pretty nice actually! In terms of Reuniclus, a FB from Arcanine in Sun will almost OHKO it, so do calcs on Blaziken as it may be able to do the same. In general your strongest Fire (physical) hit will do a number on it, the problem is getting Blaziken in. For TR sets the best idea is just to keep hitting it since it has less Def, screens should help you a lot here.
TR is a huge issue for Sun given its tendency to be frail, the best you can do is realise you're facing TR on preview and simply try and nuke everything as best you can, using Screens and Slowbro's regen to try and endure their attacks if TR does go up.
Balanced evs does nothing for me though, the special attackers I'm worried about 2hko me with a screen up and will 1hko me without one up either way if I have a defensive nature. Xatu is too frail to invest both ways. If I invested specially I would be making my team even weaker to Tyranitar and other bulky attackers. I need to do wishpassing calcs though and figure out if they'll save me any KOs for extra hp investment. Xatu involves too much math for something that does no damage.
Yeah punching things to death with Blaziken has seemed to work the best for me so far in regards to trick room, and getting growths on the switch with Venusaur has allowed me to sweep a few times though Reuniclus takes hits like a champ.
I need to see if there is any benefit to Slowbro with lower speed ivs, and maybe something I could run on him to help in trick room. I just don't want to fiddle too much and then start losing to the things my team is tailored to beat.
Yeah punching things to death with Blaziken has seemed to work the best for me so far in regards to trick room, and getting growths on the switch with Venusaur has allowed me to sweep a few times though Reuniclus takes hits like a champ.
I need to see if there is any benefit to Slowbro with lower speed ivs, and maybe something I could run on him to help in trick room. I just don't want to fiddle too much and then start losing to the things my team is tailored to beat.
You're right in both respects - she's not too great in singles, but Entrainment is definitely a great idea to use for Sun in doubles. The only issue is, naturally, removing other abilities - like Heatran's Flash Fire for instance if looking to Eruption spam, as well as not hitting through protect and hence taking a turn to go into effect, meaning you'll need to Follow Me abuse in Triples to use this well.
Lilligant's After You is another alternative that goes into effect immediately, and retains the recipient's useful ability, so you should give that a shot as well if looking into this.
Trick room Reuniclus can be handled if you're using stuff like escavelier or jirachi. Considering that latios gives us a bit of trouble if he gets a free switch in, I'd say that escavalier isn't a bad choice. Nice flash fire bait too. Jirachi works too.
Has anyone else considered using CM/Nasty Plot celebi? Sun doesn't exactly have many options to baton pass as chlorophyll leafeon can't learn it and sawsbuck and leavanny are frail and don't like wasting the moveslots. But with celebi, you can pass the SpA boosts to something like Heatran, while being a lure for fire attacks. Celebi can also be a cleric and set up stealth rock if you really need it to. The only downside I see is that you absolutely must carry hidden power fire, as Scizor will make you cringe every time you see his face.
Has anyone else considered using CM/Nasty Plot celebi? Sun doesn't exactly have many options to baton pass as chlorophyll leafeon can't learn it and sawsbuck and leavanny are frail and don't like wasting the moveslots. But with celebi, you can pass the SpA boosts to something like Heatran, while being a lure for fire attacks. Celebi can also be a cleric and set up stealth rock if you really need it to. The only downside I see is that you absolutely must carry hidden power fire, as Scizor will make you cringe every time you see his face.
The main reason people don't use Celebi is that they're using Chlorophyllers instead I suppose, and don't want to compound their weaknesses. Personally the TTar as well as other weaknesses it provides seem problematic, but a +2 Flash Fire boosted Heatran's Fire Blast is going to hurt everything not immune more that Solar Power Zard's! I think Balloon would have to be given a miss since you risk coming in on something unexpected (and can come in on Scizor well too) but nuking everything seems pretty fun once there. Celebi's team support also seems excellent, again its just a matter of sacrificing a slot for it, as well as making sure you can take advantage of the boosts well enough.
Sorry to double post to bring this back to the dead, but I just wanted people's opinions on a new set for Ninetales I've been trying out. Essentially it's Flamethrower/WoW/Sub/Roar, with Roar being the new part.
The main reason I deviated from my old ChestoRest Tales was because Katakiri showed me you didn't need it to survive a match successfully, and I was becoming huge setup fodder for too many things, especially ones with Substitute, Chomp and Tran mostly.
Roar's slot being Disable gets me nowhere in terms of being setup fodder, and whilst Power Swap helps against special attackers, they were not the mons I was having issues with. HP Fight seemed nice to beat Tran, but then Chomp was laughing in my face. Essentially, Roar seemed like a good compromise - only getting rid of the problem poke, but forcing them to lose some health and take SR again. The main issues with it are the possibility of bringing in something worse - typically CBTar when I have no sub, or Tran or something similar, but it also really helps with at least removing things like Volc trying to boost. So what do people think? Worth the slot or no, any better options?
The main reason I deviated from my old ChestoRest Tales was because Katakiri showed me you didn't need it to survive a match successfully, and I was becoming huge setup fodder for too many things, especially ones with Substitute, Chomp and Tran mostly.
Roar's slot being Disable gets me nowhere in terms of being setup fodder, and whilst Power Swap helps against special attackers, they were not the mons I was having issues with. HP Fight seemed nice to beat Tran, but then Chomp was laughing in my face. Essentially, Roar seemed like a good compromise - only getting rid of the problem poke, but forcing them to lose some health and take SR again. The main issues with it are the possibility of bringing in something worse - typically CBTar when I have no sub, or Tran or something similar, but it also really helps with at least removing things like Volc trying to boost. So what do people think? Worth the slot or no, any better options?
In UU, Roar on Vulpix is a good option that keeps Vulpix from becoming setup fodder most of the time. In OU, Roar on Ninetales is a big death sentence. I've run it in the past and the risks are just too great of a trade off. In weather wars, your opponent will usually go for the kill on Ninetales at first instead of trying to set up. If you phase them out...well, like you said, you'll probably bring in something Ninetales doesn't like anyway.
But I'm being negative. It gets rid of opportunisitic boosters and nets you extra damage if you have hazards up.
Katakirir is right though. And safegaurd on Ninetales has been wonderful so far.
But I'm being negative. It gets rid of opportunisitic boosters and nets you extra damage if you have hazards up.
Katakirir is right though. And safegaurd on Ninetales has been wonderful so far.
Admittedly Roar cannot often be used off the bat, but combined with Sub it's actually been doing really really well for me. There are a few things who will setup on you even if you have a Sub (Chomp, Tran) and being able to blast them out is invaluable if you have problems when they're behind a sub. There are also the few things who will obviously try to setup on you as they assume you'll switch - think Volcarona - so you can Roar to remove them as well (good for the lead position).
Sub and WoW of course have natural synergy between them, so sub does help a lot with burning stuff too. The hazard damage when roaring is really just a boon, though phazing stuff out is a little pointless if you lack it. Roar can also help disrupt Wishes and such, since Blissey will often take her time to come in and attempt to set one up on you, which can give you advantage if you bring in something Fire-weak, and if not, well you still have a sub up.
It's often less used in weather wars, since the opponent will be bringing their inducer into Tales and as such I want to Burn it to rack up damage, but after the initial switchin it can help to immediately phaze them back out as they switch in, dealing hazard damage as well as possibly bringing in something weak to you.
That said, I agree that it can get you killed if you take a risky prediction, but if you're at least a bit careful then it can be very useful, since the last slot is sort of filler anyway. Safeguard is ofc hilariously good against Thundurus and anything trying to T-Wave you to prevent a sweep, but in general I find Sub abusers more trouble than status, for my team at least.
Just a really quick comment on this. Power Swap Ninetales destroys Volcarona. Literally, they boost you hit with Overheat for ~50%, they boost again/attack (And the only move they have that could damage Nine at all is HP Ground/Rock) you swap boosts. Then you kill them. Same goes for Reuniclus, this one is even funnier to watch as they tend to not worry about your first couple of attacks and keep boosting up. so you Overheat twice, they calm mind a couple times, then you give them -4 and watch them go O.O.
My favorite match was when someone tried to keep shell-smashing Cloyster after I burned it, only to have me steal it's boosts.
Now real quick question, what are you guys running on your Arcanine. I was running Life Orb + CC/FB/WC/E-Speed, but I was dieing to recoil really fast so I switched over to Leftovers. Unfortunately that means I miss out on the OHKO against Heatran, and since Arcanine is my counter to it...
So I was wondering if a Choice Band set would work, or maybe a Morning Sun variant. Opinions?
I've used a few different sets of Arcanine and the CB set with FB / Extremespeed / CC / Crunch has been the most successful by far. I found that I was wasting turns with the Life Orb / Morning Sun set due to the massive amounts of recoil and I tried an Agility set that was wasn't as effective as my Chlorophyll sweepers. CB Flare Blitz actually has less recoil than a LO set and CB Extremespeed helps against many frail rain sweepers (Starmie, Tornadus, Thundurus etc) as well as Latios. Crunch is for Jellicent and Chandelure who wall the LO / Morning Sun set. However, my information is a bit old as I haven't played with sun for a while, so you'll want a second opinion.
Pretty much this, CB on Arc is fantastic both for the power and the drop in recoil. Morning Sun is generally unneeded when you can happily spam CC or Extremespeed without LO recoil.
I would advise Wild Charge>Crunch though, as I recently realised that quite literally the only thing you're hitting harder with it is Chandelure - Flare Blitz hits all other ghosts harder than Crunch (except Jelli, whom WC takes care of) and WC gives you some helpful extra damage on unboosted Gyara or Politoed, or even a flying type coming into CC.
I need a good lead that can hold its own and set up rawks. Currently I'm running Forretress and I feel like I'm always only relying on it to either set up rocks due to sturdy, or attracting Fire attacks to boost my FFArc. Suggestions?
You could try out a more offensive Steel in Bronzong, or if you like Sturdy then Donphan is another good choice so you keep Rapid Spin too. You probably shouldn't have them in the lead position on team preview, swap them there as the game starts and try to lure in things they can beat.
A few other useful users include things like Mamoswine and Rhyperior, though their lesser defensive capacity (due to weaknesses) makes it a tad riskier to have them lead.
So I found a new(ish) Pokemon for my Sun Team. A Charizard! Ok all joking aside I have actually found a decent set for Charizard in the Sun that doesn't involve getting walled by Tyranitar. And that Set is:
Bahamut (Charizard) (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 80 Def / 176 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Brick Break
- Roost
Charizard has a couple unique Niches. First is that is is the only Fire Pokemon with Solar Power. That means Double STAB and massive Sp. Atk in Sun. Second thing about it is that I has the highest special attack of all Solar Power users.
The final thing is what inspired me to make this set. Charizard is the ONLY fire type to get Dragon Dance. So what does this do for Charizard? His attack is decent at best. And he is still murdered by Stealth Rock. But what if you add in his movepool and Sun?
This Charizard is a beast. Switch in on something you scare out, and DD. Pretty easy to do considering that out of the top 3 right now you resist 2/3 and murder them with X4 Super Effective hits. Then you start laying waste with your moves. Flare Blitz is what you click most often, getting double STAB and all (Meaning 120*1.5*1.5=270) And after only 1 DD it kills most of the Meta. Brick Break allows you to kill the Tyranitar that Just love to switch into you, along with Heatran. The last moveslot is a toss up. I use roost to allow me to heal from Recoil/SR and possibly grab an extra boost.
The item is also up to you. Leftovers allows an extra switch in to SR if needed, while also helping to negate some of Flare Blitz's recoil. Life Orb gives more power, at the cost of your life, which is short already (Can be balanced out by Roost).
The EV's are also up for grabs. Max ATK and Adamant is a must though. 176 in Spd allows you to hit 420 after a DD which is about where you need, as your Cloro-Sweeper can pick off anything faster then that. 80 Defense EV's to survive hits better. I put them in to allow me to survive Scizor better, they can be switched around though.
If Water pokemon are really bothering you you can put the 80 EV's in Sp.Atk and run HP Elec/Grass over Roost.
Just wish we had a Female Dream World Charizard. Then you could run DD and Solar Power for insane damage output (439/411/420 Offensive stats after a DD O.O)
Bahamut (Charizard) (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 80 Def / 176 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Brick Break
- Roost
Charizard has a couple unique Niches. First is that is is the only Fire Pokemon with Solar Power. That means Double STAB and massive Sp. Atk in Sun. Second thing about it is that I has the highest special attack of all Solar Power users.
The final thing is what inspired me to make this set. Charizard is the ONLY fire type to get Dragon Dance. So what does this do for Charizard? His attack is decent at best. And he is still murdered by Stealth Rock. But what if you add in his movepool and Sun?
This Charizard is a beast. Switch in on something you scare out, and DD. Pretty easy to do considering that out of the top 3 right now you resist 2/3 and murder them with X4 Super Effective hits. Then you start laying waste with your moves. Flare Blitz is what you click most often, getting double STAB and all (Meaning 120*1.5*1.5=270) And after only 1 DD it kills most of the Meta. Brick Break allows you to kill the Tyranitar that Just love to switch into you, along with Heatran. The last moveslot is a toss up. I use roost to allow me to heal from Recoil/SR and possibly grab an extra boost.
The item is also up to you. Leftovers allows an extra switch in to SR if needed, while also helping to negate some of Flare Blitz's recoil. Life Orb gives more power, at the cost of your life, which is short already (Can be balanced out by Roost).
The EV's are also up for grabs. Max ATK and Adamant is a must though. 176 in Spd allows you to hit 420 after a DD which is about where you need, as your Cloro-Sweeper can pick off anything faster then that. 80 Defense EV's to survive hits better. I put them in to allow me to survive Scizor better, they can be switched around though.
If Water pokemon are really bothering you you can put the 80 EV's in Sp.Atk and run HP Elec/Grass over Roost.
Just wish we had a Female Dream World Charizard. Then you could run DD and Solar Power for insane damage output (439/411/420 Offensive stats after a DD O.O)
I was going to post to ask what advantages that set had over Salamence, but I think I'll hold my tongue. I should know that the double STAb you get from sunlight is already deadly enough for fire types, and resistance to Scizor bullet punch is also appealing. I think I'll try it out.
If female DW charizard existed, then dragon dance may find itself becoming a liability. You lose 12.5% health to set up and then possibly get forced out. Although I'd just run the same exact set with Solarbeam over roost and a naughty nature.
If female DW charizard existed, then dragon dance may find itself becoming a liability. You lose 12.5% health to set up and then possibly get forced out. Although I'd just run the same exact set with Solarbeam over roost and a naughty nature.
Resisting every move a Scizor and Ferrothorn (commonly) carries, Double Stab and arguably better Typing for Sun. Otherwise Salamence is probably better. The sheer destructive power of Flare Blitz with the Sun up is the only reason to use it. It also gains higher Attack and Speed then the Other Flare Blitz abusers too.
Honestly speaking its only use is in Sun, otherwise don't use it.
Again I would say lefties would be the best item to hold, making it so you only lose ~6% per turn, and having offensive stats better then a Raquaza, they are close to rivaling a Deoxys-A, along with an enormous movepool make it so good looking. Also there would be very little that could force you out, you resist most priority and after a DD you outspeed everything except a few scarfers. And who wants to go toe-to-toe with something faster that hits almost as hard as Deoxys-A?
Note: Deoxys-A Stats = 459/397/438, Charizards = 439/411/420 after DD. Of course those could change a bit with EV adjustments.
Honestly speaking its only use is in Sun, otherwise don't use it.
Again I would say lefties would be the best item to hold, making it so you only lose ~6% per turn, and having offensive stats better then a Raquaza, they are close to rivaling a Deoxys-A, along with an enormous movepool make it so good looking. Also there would be very little that could force you out, you resist most priority and after a DD you outspeed everything except a few scarfers. And who wants to go toe-to-toe with something faster that hits almost as hard as Deoxys-A?
Note: Deoxys-A Stats = 459/397/438, Charizards = 439/411/420 after DD. Of course those could change a bit with EV adjustments.
The arcanine i am running has CC,ES,FB and Morning Sun as its attacks and holds life orb.
his ability is flash fire cause absorbing fire attacks in sunlight is pro!
it has an adamant nature and 252/252 evs in attack and hp.
it is pretty bulky has only 2 weaknesses in sun and has 5 resistances/immunities.also his power before or after a flash fire boost is amazing!
he ohkoes volcarona 100% of the time after sr damage with es!!!
finally he can recover any damage at will and even without speed evs he is pretty fast to do it before he dies!!!
i just love him!!!
Didn't think I had to say that you would run a Mixed set if you had Solar Power.
Sorry for the double post but I have a couple questions.
First is what everyone is running to check other weather starters. I generally let them start the weather at the beginning, then bring in Ninetails later. When Ninetails comes in the other weather starters jump the gun and try and get themselves in too. I then Burn whatever comes in. Then switch out to something that can actually cause damage to them. Unfortunately I have times when the burn misses, and that can cause issues, making me take extra damage overall.
The second question is what are you using to counter the Earthquake weakness that Sun teams generally have issues with (Ninetails, generally 1 other fire type, a steel to sponge dragons, ect...).
First is what everyone is running to check other weather starters. I generally let them start the weather at the beginning, then bring in Ninetails later. When Ninetails comes in the other weather starters jump the gun and try and get themselves in too. I then Burn whatever comes in. Then switch out to something that can actually cause damage to them. Unfortunately I have times when the burn misses, and that can cause issues, making me take extra damage overall.
The second question is what are you using to counter the Earthquake weakness that Sun teams generally have issues with (Ninetails, generally 1 other fire type, a steel to sponge dragons, ect...).