Hidden Type

Electric/Water (Chinchou, Lanturn, Rotom-Wash): Add Bug to change from a Grass/Ground to a Fire weakness.
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Electric/Water/Bug is neutral to Fire. It's vulnerable to Rock.

Interesting post overall though.
 
I tried to run a query on which types were the most offensive. This assumes that the defender has chosen one of the type(s) that most reduces his number of weaknesses. It looks as if my query has decided that this is usually going to be the Steel type, which explains why it likes Fire and Ground so much.
  1. Fire/Ground/Rock (8× weak to Water, 4× weak to Ground, 2× weak to Fighting, Grass)
  2. Fire/Ground/Ice (4× weak to Water, 2× weak to Fighting, Ground, Rock)
  3. Fire/Ground/Water (2× weak to Grass, Ground, Water)
  4. Fire/Ground/Grass (2× weak to Flying, Ice, Water)
  5. Fire/Flying/Ground (4× weak to Water, 2× weak to Ice, Rock)
  6. Fairy/Fire/Ground (4× weak to Water, 2× weak to Ground)
  7. Flying/Ground/Rock (4× weak to Ice, Water, 2× weak to Grass, Steel)
  8. Fighting/Ground/Rock (4× weak to Grass, Water, 2× weak to Fairy, Fighting, Ground, Ice, Psychic, Steel)
  9. Ground/Ice/Rock (4× weak to Fighting, Grass, Steel, Water, 2× weak to Ground)
  10. Fairy/Ground/Rock (4× weak to Grass, Steel, Water, 2× weak to Ground, Ice)
Flying/Water/Ground is the highest (94%) that is only weak to Grass/Ice. Bug/Electric/Water is 42%. Worst offensive typing would be to add the Fighting type to Girafarig. (Worst defensive typing would be something like Tyranitar with HP Ice; 8× weak to Fighting, 4× weak to Steel, 2× weak to Rock, Ground, Grass, Fairy, Bug.)

By comparison, this is what my query returns for the top 10 list of offensive sets of three types in the regular game, so if this is wrong, then so is my list above :heart:
  1. Ground/Ice/Rock
  2. Fairy/Ground/Rock
  3. Fire/Ground/Ice
  4. Flying/Ground/Ice
  5. Fairy/Fire/Ground
  6. Fairy/Ground/Ice
  7. Flying/Ground/Rock
  8. Ground/Ice/Steel
  9. Fighting/Ground/Ice
  10. Fighting/Ground/Rock
 
Latias - Psychic/Dragon/Fire

Removes dragon, fairy and ice weaknesses. Immune to ground and neutral to water. Gains a weakness to rocks though.

Opinion?
 
Here's a fun offensive FWG core I've been playing with:
altaria-mega.gif


Dragon.png
Fairy.png
/
Fire.png


Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 64 HP / 192 Atk / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Roost
- Dragon Dance
- Return
- Fire Blast

Mega Altaria is a beast in Hidden Type. Normally Steel is the preferred Hidden Power as it removes 3 of your weaknesses and replaces them with a single weakness to Ground, but I chose Fire for 2 reasons: avoid burns and 2HKO Water/Dragon Skarmory with Fire Blast. Fire also has the handy benefit of giving me a neutrality towards Steel.

crawdaunt.gif


Water.png
Dark.png
/
Fighting.png


Crawdaunt @ Lum Berry
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Aqua Jet
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Superpower

Most of you already know the mighty force that is Fighting Crawdaunt. There is nary a mon in the game that survives a +2 Superpower without resisting it, even Skarmory is OHKO'd after rocks. It synergizes pretty well with Mega Altaria, since they each beat each other's checks and counters. Lum Berry Crawdaunt sets up on Heatran(among other things), and Altaria beats Dragon Clefable, as well as any Fighting/Electric type that threatens Crawdaunt.

manaphy.gif


Water.png
/
Grass.png


Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Tail Glow
- Scald
- Energy Ball
- Ice Beam

Grass Manaphy is just as strong in ORAS as it was in XY Hidden Type, being one of the best wallbreakers alongside Crawdaunt. Manaphy completes the core by absorbing Ground type moves for the other 2 and beating things like Water Hippowdon/Gliscor, Ground Gyarados, Skarmory variants, Heatran, and anything else that would stop the previous two from wrecking shop. Attack IVs preserve Grass typing while minimizing Foul Play damage.​

The core is a little weak to birdspam, and in the event you're scared some lunatic would waste a teamslot on Talonflame when the entire meta is Steel/Dragon Steel/Water Steel/Fire, you can change Altaria's Hidden Type to Steel, replacing Fire Blast with something like Substitute/Heal Bell. Steel Mega Altaria is only weak to Ground, but it loses its burn immunity and has a harder time getting around Skarmory.
 
There are some combinations that comes very close to having zero weaknesses, but when this was OMOTM I remember a lot of teams opting for a typing that would grant something an immunity to what would otherwise be a 4x weakness. Such as Ground Gyra, Ghost TTar and Bisharp, Flying Heatran and Magnezone, etc...

I thought offensive typing was more important than defensive typing because this was a highly offensive meta, if I remember correctly. Typings that helped a mon eliminate what would typically be a liability went a long way. HP Grass Manaphy is a perfect example of this allowing it to gain STAB on energy ball and punish things that would resist it's water stab and coverage move of choice. As an added bonus giving a grass typing to anything usually paid off because many things would inadvertently become Grass weak trying to balance weaknesses. For example Ground Gyra or Water Gliscor. I remember HP Grass Heatran doing well for me at the cost of a couple resistances.
 
That would be a no. But no weakness isn't necessarily great because resistance, especially resistance to commonly used Attacks is more important.

Let this bump be a nice way to ease into ORAS theorymoning.

What do you think the plethora of new Megas hold for the Metagame? Personally, I love the idea of a Fire Metagross-M. Has the bulk to Swords Dance at least once and then wreck face with Meteor Mash/Earthquake/Fire Punch, but of course the real upside is being immune to Burn. The quadraple weakness to Ground definitely sucks though.
 
Old_Gregg said:
There are some combinations that comes very close to having zero weaknesses, but when this was OMOTM I remember a lot of teams opting for a typing that would grant something an immunity to what would otherwise be a 4x weakness. Such as Ground Gyra, Ghost TTar and Bisharp, Flying Heatran and Magnezone, etc...

I thought offensive typing was more important than defensive typing because this was a highly offensive meta, if I remember correctly. Typings that helped a mon eliminate what would typically be a liability went a long way. HP Grass Manaphy is a perfect example of this allowing it to gain STAB on energy ball and punish things that would resist it's water stab and coverage move of choice. As an added bonus giving a grass typing to anything usually paid off because many things would inadvertently become Grass weak trying to balance weaknesses. For example Ground Gyra or Water Gliscor. I remember HP Grass Heatran doing well for me at the cost of a couple resistances.
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Grass type Manaphy also removes both of Manaphy's normal weaknesses, replacing them with Flying, Poison, and Bug. It does have defensive value, not even getting into immunity to Spore, Leech Seed, etc. Not to mention resistance to Ground is really useful. The fact that it provides STAB on Manaphy's preferred coverage of Energy Ball is a nice little dovetailing of both ends, not the only reason to select it.

But yeah Hidden Type was more offensively minded than defensively minded, in part because it was much more possible to take a strong offensive threat with a problematic weakness, remove or reduce that weakness, and suddenly it was in a position to rampage, whereas modifying types was not nearly as useful to Stall teams. (They don't care about tri-STABs, and there's not that many Pokemon that fall under "would be Stall, except its typing is [redeemable] crap")
 
Ghoul King said:
...

But yeah Hidden Type was more offensively minded than defensively minded, in part because it was much more possible to take a strong offensive threat with a problematic weakness, remove or reduce that weakness, and suddenly it was in a position to rampage, whereas modifying types was not nearly as useful to Stall teams. (They don't care about tri-STABs, and there's not that many Pokemon that fall under "would be Stall, except its typing is [redeemable] crap")
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Early Hidden Type meta was mostly stall/semi stall, and word's team was a really good example of how to make that playstyle work. Steel AV Tornadus, Water Hippowdon, Ghost Umbreon, Unaware Dragon Clef(walls Crawdaunt, even though Mega Altaria does that now), Dark Mew, and Dragon Skarmory were all very good at doing their job.
 
As I already mentioned somewhere, Hidden Type is basically OU+. For every Offensive mon, there's always a check/counter lurking in some corner. After all, you have the advantage of choosing whatever type you want and its resistances. It just needs more time to develop true Counters. Any new user will start out with HO. It takes some period to develop checks/counters to said HO mons.
 
As you can see from the second post, which was shamelessly stolen from OU, it is now time for Hidden Type Viability Rankings! All the information about it is in the second post. Jack Dalton will have the final say on rankings since, in my opinion, he is the most experienced player, and one of the best, in the Hidden Type metagame.

The Pokemon on the list will be placed with a certain Hidden Type. For example, Flying Excadrill may be placed in A Rank. The list will say Flying Excadrill, rather than just Excadrill. This means that it might be possible for a Pokemon to be listed more than once; although, I hope we can avoid this unless they are in S Rank or A Rank.

We will begin with S Rank and move down each rank at a time. Let the discussion begin!
 
I think if anything is deserving of S it's Water Gliscor.

Water/Ground/Flying is an amazing typing with only weaknesses to ice and grass, the latter being very uncommon to begin with in OU and arguably becoming even worse seeing as everything can be part steel now. Poison Heal only makes it even harder to take down, and with the ability to run a ton of possible moves such as Knock Off, Taunt, Stealth Rock, Roost, Earthquake, Aqua Tail, Roost, and even Swords Dance + Baton Pass, it's almost impossible to guess what it's running at first glance. As if this utility wasn't enough, it also serves as a very good scald/lava plume switch-in and specially defensive versions stop Rotom-W cold.

When Hidden Type had a ladder it was by far both the best member of my team, allowing me to peak and the most annoying Pokemon to face. Immunity to status, amazing passive recovery and a fantastic typing make it by far the best Pokemon in hidden type in my opinion.
 
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If anything deserves S Rank, it's Steel Dragonite. It's completely ridiculous, being immune to Toxic, immune to Sandstorm damage, only weak to Ice, carries Multiscale so it can Roost through just about anything short of a slow Earthquake/Close Combat, and all it needs is Dragon Claw+Iron Head to push solid damage through on almost everything in the meta, freeing it up to throw in Dragon Dance and be done. (And then there's the Hone Claws Sub-Dragon Tail sets other people were fond of, and plenty of other possibilities besides) Skarmory (Non-Dragon Skarmory, specifically) is a hard stop to it and can Whirlwind it out to stop setup, and if it gets Burned and you don't have a cleric it's utility drops enormously -but before Hidden Type had a ladder I swept teams while Burned with Steel Dragonite. I think I even did such a Burned sweep once on the ladder too, though teams were more prone to carrying phazing or the like on the ladder, thankfully. Fire-type Unaware Clefable can also sit in and throw out Flamethrowers between Softboileds until Dragonite gets Burned, and then just stall it out, but it can end up just Flinching one too many times before it gets in the Burn and be KOed, so that's shaky. Ferrothorn (Typing irrelevant) is a hurdle for the set I described as well, but only if it carries Leech Seed and comes in early enough on Dragonite that it's only +1 or +2, because otherwise Dragonite will kill it (slowly, but still eventually) and Roost off the Iron Barbs/Rocky Helmet damage. In general stall options can kill it, but can also be powered through, and some of the better stops (eg Skarmory) have enormous difficulty getting the KO -especially since it is no longer substantially vulnerable to hazard damage, so with Leftovers it can be phazed repeatedly and not be impressed. Meanwhile, offense has a very difficult time actually killing it -I usually ran HP over Speed because after 2 Dragon Dances I outspeed almost everything anyway- can't setup on it safely, and often has nothing to actually force out setup sweepers beyond Toxic, which it's immune to. Even hyper offense can sometimes struggle to damage it enough to get the KO. Ultimately Burning it and wearing it down is one of the only things that is a reliable response to it, and it still takes ages to accomplish if you don't use, again, a slow Earthquake/Close Combat when it Roosts. (And even then Multiscale may keep it in the game) It doesn't hurt any that it resists Gyro Ball, making Dragon Dancing up surprisingly safe for it.

Just the pressure it puts on enemy teams by existing can produce amazing results. It's nuts.

Dragon Skarmory itself might deserve S Rank as well, being an all-around amazing wall that now only has one weakness, to a type that, though offensively powerful, is less popular in Hidden Type and lacks an equivalent to tossing out a Fire Blast -Blizzard is less accurate and much more rarely run. I'm less certain of this one though, in part because I fought it rather than running it -I'd rather someone who actually used it provide a picture of its utility and quality.

Lastly, I can see an argument Ground Gyarados, though I suspect it's more A Rank material. Regardless, it's very good, with multiple immunities, acceptable bulk supplemented by Intimidate and potentially leftovers, a hilariously powerful Earthquake, and access to Ice Fang for doing solid (not great) damage to the likes of Steel Dragonite. Since Ground and Electric are excellent offensive types, and Electric in particular is an excellent add for a number of Pokemon, it can be surprisingly easy to switch Gyarados in for free, and either dish out solid damage or Dragon Dance. The latter possibility puts a lot of pressure on the enemy to not let Gyarados get that free switch in, and to respond immediately if it does get in. It is marred by a lack of good recovery, vulnerability to Toxic, and the fact that Grass is actually a popular attacking type in Hidden Type, between Manaphy existing and the general commonality of good Pokemon being weak to Grass (eg Water Gliscor), and it's weakness to Ice can be a problem.

Nothing else leaps to mind as S Rank material for me. I will say I'd place Water Gliscor as A+, not S Rank -it's a great wall yes, but it's still got bad Special Defense, limited offense and less limited stall tools (The best thing it can do to Steel Dragonite is Knock Off its Leftovers), and it's reduced vulnerability to Ice and removed weakness to Water is not enough to prevent it from being taken down. I may be underestimating the difficulty stall teams have dealing with it, though.

EDIT: Forgot to mention Heatran (Usually Flying, but it generally doesn't matter) is generally another decent stop to Steel Dragonite -but if it's not carrying Roar, it's still a Pokemon Dragonite can boost up in the face of and just keep going, Burn or no.
 
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Ghoul King said:
Dragon Skarmory itself might deserve S Rank as well, being an all-around amazing wall that now only has one weakness, to a type that, though offensively powerful, is less popular in Hidden Type and lacks an equivalent to tossing out a Fire Blast -Blizzard is less accurate and much more rarely run. I'm less certain of this one though, in part because I fought it rather than running it -I'd rather someone who actually used it provide a picture of its utility and quality.
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Having used Skarmory heavily in Hidden Type, I very much disagree with this. Dragon is honestly a pretty bad typing for Skarmory, as while it looks good on paper with only 1 weakness, it also becomes neutral to Dragon which can be a major problem. One of Skarmory's main draws is the ability to switch in on and counter Dragons, but adding a Dragon typing takes that away. It also loses the ability to check Mamoswine, which is problematic for stall teams otherwise. The newly gained fire and electric neutralities are sort of nice but they only serve to check mixed attackers anyway (and Zone will still fry you), and the water and grass resistances are fairly insignificant since is already takes jack from grass and Azumarill, the only physical water type attacker, now gets a neutral Play Rough and Skarm won't want to be risking the scald burn anyway. Only Dragonite can really pull off this typing.

Skarmory has, in my opinion, 3 typings that it can viably use but for these reasons I would not say Dragon is one of them.

Poison: It's already immune to ground and psychic isn't a resistance it ever needed really, but the fighting resist makes this the best typing in my opinion. Being able to check fighting type attackers like Conkeldurr for little cost is a godsend for Skarm.
Water: Helps it check things like Mixed Chomp by adding a Fire resist, and gives it a handy resistance to ice for Mamoswine. Also gives it a water resist without making it neutral to fairy, meaning it can switch in on 2/3rds of CB Fighting Azumarill's moves, and all of Ground Azu's moves. 4x electric weakness seems major but mixed attackers that skarm will be checking will rarely be running electric coverage, and physical electric is never seen.
Electric: No drawbacks and makes Skarm neutral to electric and 4x resistant to Flying. Essentially the typing you want to use if you don't want any of the drawbacks associated with the aforementioned typings, since it only gains from Electric, though the gains aren't that impressive.

I'd say with these typings it could probably end up somewhere in A.

I agree with your Dragonite nomination, though.

Ghoul King said:
Nothing else leaps to mind as S Rank material for me. I will say I'd place Water Gliscor as A+, not S Rank -it's a great wall yes, but it's still got bad Special Defense, limited offense and less limited stall tools (The best thing it can do to Steel Dragonite is Knock Off its Leftovers), and it's reduced vulnerability to Ice and removed weakness to Water is not enough to prevent it from being taken down. I may be underestimating the difficulty stall teams have dealing with it, though.
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Assuming standard DNite with little speed investment is the one switching in, it can taunt (If it has it) and PP stall Dragon Claw/slowly kill it with Knock off as well. Essentially, Gliscor can't switch in and counter Dragonite, but Dragonite will not be using it as set-up fodder anytime soon. As for your second statement, most Gliscors are specially defensive and you'd be surprised how well it can take certain hits (I also forgot to mention it walls the otherwise heavily feared STAB Focus Blast Lando-I):

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 120-142 (34 - 40.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 114-135 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 83.7% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
252+ SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 156-184 (44.3 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 139-164 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
 
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Also forgot to specifically comment Dragonite even functions as a stall Pokemon, of all things. Part of why I think S is appropriate.

Skarmory
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Fair enough, though Poison seems a bit risky since it means Skarmory will die instantly to a Ground move after a Roost. It does have the niche advantage -if you're willing to reveal your typing unnecessarily- of being able to run Black Sludge to punish item theft, so that's cool.

Assuming standard DNite with little speed investment is the one switching in, it can taunt (If it has it) and PP stall Dragon Claw/slowly kill it with Knock off as well.
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That's true, and I'd forgotten I've run into that exact scenario myself, but it's still true its value as a Physical wall is diminished, since a major Physical attacker (Dragonite) doesn't really care if it switches in.

As for your second statement, most Gliscors are specially defensive and you'd be surprised how well it can take certain hits (I also forgot to mention it walls the otherwise heavily feared STAB Focus Blast Lando-I):
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I'll admit I was not aware of the Landorus-Incarnate utility. On the other hand, one of the major flaws with Gliscor in my experience is the fragility of its Poison Heal -a lot of players slip up and switch in on a Knock Off or worse yet Will O Wisp, and worse yet Gliscor is un-synergistic with clerics, since it doesn't want to lose its Poison if it's already lost its Toxic Orb, at which point it struggles a lot more with walling anything. It also struggles to wall some fairly important/good Physical attackers, such as Crawdaunt

252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor (simulated neutral hit): 188-222 (53.4 - 63%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

even with its Water typing. There's also the admittedly surprisingly niche vulnerability to Freeze Dry -if somebody does bring along a Freeze Dry user and you let it hit you, that's it, Gliscor explodes, full stop.

Gliscor is definitely really really good, I just am not convinced it crosses over from A+ to S, due to its movepool problems and the problems that arise if it loses/fails to acquire the Poisoning it needs.

EDIT: Actually, I could potentially see Grass Manaphy as an S Rank, or at least A+. It's no longer weak to its normal counters, and in fact Flying is the only one of its three weaknesses that crops up relatively consistently, so if you can get Talonflame out of the way (Assuming the enemy team is even carrying it) and get off a Tail Glow it does an excellent job wrecking stuff and is hard to counterkill even with good, non-Talonflame priority. It has consistently surprised me how much use it got out of gaining STAB on Energy Ball, and it's got room to fit almost anything it wants in its fourth moveslot -Ice Beam to take down Dragonite/generally improve its coverage, Heart Swap to laugh at other setup sweepers, Rest for healing, whatever. My own team was usually able to push past it, but my team is heavily weighted toward things that Manaphy hates fighting. (In spite of no Talonflame)
 
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here's a thingy I've used for a while now and am really satisfied with.
pinsir-mega.gif

Tastefull Lips (Pinsir) @ Pinsirite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Close Combat
- Quick Attack
- Return
- Swords Dance

Stab close combat is insanely strong with 155 base attack and provides amazing coverage with return.
Fighting type also reduces the amount of damage this thing takes on sr.
Don't have much more to say, what do you guys think about it ?
 
It's been kinda covered before. Flytran and really any gliscor that still resists fighting (AKA all of them) says hi, but otherwise it's very good.
 
tegrof19 said:
It's been kinda covered before. Flytran and really any gliscor that still resists fighting (AKA all of them) says hi, but otherwise it's very good.
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Oh, ok sorry. Still heatran and gliscor both get ohko at +2 and it's not like gliscor is doing much to it anyway.
 
motherlove said:
here's a thingy I've used for a while now and am really satisfied with.
pinsir-mega.gif

Tastefull Lips (Pinsir) @ Pinsirite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Close Combat
- Quick Attack
- Return
- Swords Dance

Stab close combat is insanely strong with 155 base attack and provides amazing coverage with return.
Fighting type also reduces the amount of damage this thing takes on sr.
Don't have much more to say, what do you guys think about it ?
Click to expand...

Pinsir Mega is the one of the firstly identified threats. However Hippo and Gliscor wall it. Ghost Bisharp can revenge it. The real letdown is that anything that can take a CC can easily KO it with its reduced defenses. Rocks are a bit of a problem too.

Also, I think Poison Assault Vest Conkeldurr deserves a mention. As walls specifically utilize Toxic, being immune to it is wonderful. Be sure to pack Ice Punch to deal with Gliscor. It's also a great check for Grass Manaphy, whom you can KO unsuspectingly.
 
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