Hidden Type

[IronicNinja]

Anyone find a reliable Steel Dnite counter yet?

Yeah Flying Heatran...I dont really understand why Steel Dnite is S. Roost, DDance, Dragon claw, (wot Iron Head)?

 

[Pikachuun]

Yeah Flying Heatran...I dont really understand why Steel Dnite is S. Roost, DDance, Dragon claw, (wot Iron Head)?

Steel typing gets rid of its Weakness to SR, reduces its weakness to Ice to a 2x weakness (which is now its only weakness in most circumstances), and overall nets it a far better defensive typing for it to set up with.

 

[DinaIsha]

Yeah Flying Heatran...I dont really understand why Steel Dnite is S. Roost, DDance, Dragon claw, (wot Iron Head)?

Stone Edge dents Flying Heatran. Dragonite has such a huge movepool it's very hard to find a reliable counter. It can even run Surf + Thunder + Hurricane under Rain if it chooses to. It's counterable only if there's a commonly agreed good move set, which is never going to happen.

And yeah, as mentioned it runs Steel purely due to Defensive advantage, not offensive.

 

[Ghoul King]

I think that it is fair to put Clefable to A+.
Due to its amazing Ability in Unaware, Clefable is one of the exceedingly few checks to the many Dragon Dance sweepers in this meta game, and in many cases the most reliable. With the addition of Water type Clefable is able to wall Grass Manaphy, Steel Dragonite, Ground (Mega)Gyarados, Dark Mega Charizard X, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Altaria and even the premier wall breaker SD Fighting Crawdaunt. Water Type Clefable is almost a staple on stall and extremely handy on Balance to stop these threats from sweeping and help wear them down. Clefable also has an outstanding support move pool with reliable recovery, wish, heal bell, SR and thunder wave. You can even go for a CM set with Flamethrower or Stored Power.
I've actually seen CM LO Magic Guard Clefable with Fire typing for the secondary STAB. Not nearly as valuable as Unaware Clef but still retains solid bulk and gains some respectable offensive presence. Not to mention it is nice to have a fire type immune to SR damage.
With these traits together I think it is easily fair that Clefable is deserving of A+.

252 SpA Grass Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Water Clefable: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

No.

252+ Atk Steel Dragonite Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Water Clefable: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Better. Still risky, due to Flinching, and Clefable can't actually do anything back at it unless it tries to Calm Mind up, which just exaggerates the Flinch risk.

252+ Atk Ground Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Water Clefable: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Well, at least you don't have to worry about a Flinch. Acceptable. Nobody runs Mega Gyarados though, and even if they did Mold Breaker ignores Unaware so that doesn't work.

Dark Mega Charizard X: fair enough.

252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

Bad plan. And note that Sandstorm cripples Moonlight, and if you're running Unaware you don't have Softboiled. Only even slightly functional if its Sandstorm has run out, and if that's already happened it's probably already done damage and doesn't mind switching out on you to do it again later.

252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Water Clefable: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Risky.

Crawdaunt: Given Clefable's Moon Blast is a OHKO without Crawdaunt being Fighting type and nothing Crawdaunt can do hits even at 50% against it, it is absolutely possible to switch in on it and scare it out, if not outright killing it. Fair enough.

Also I think Quagsire should be at least A-.
It isn't quite as well rounded as Clefable but it does have superior Physical Bulk and retains a really nice typing, even without a third typing. Quagsire is still extremely useful to have to stop the many physical set up sweepers and also has access to Scald and SR. The biggest things holding Quagsire back from Clefable's level are its poor special bulk, lack of offensive presence and vulnerability to Grass Manaphy regardless of what type you add.

It's really hard to argue for Quagsire being all that good when Grass is such a popular type to punish a ton of other Pokemon and normally Quagsire relies on Toxic to get in damage, which tons of things are just flat-out immune to.

Yeah Flying Heatran...I dont really understand why Steel Dnite is S. Roost, DDance, Dragon claw, (wot Iron Head)?

In addition to the above points, Heatran has no recovery beyond Leftovers or Wish support, takes appalling damage from even Dragon Claw once Dragonite gets going, and Heatran cannot actually kill Dragonite.

+6 252+ Atk burned Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 139-164 (36 - 42.4%) -- 93.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 90-106 (27.8 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage (So just Roost right through the Fire Blast PP, worst case scenario)

Heatran can certainly be used to prevent a completely uncontrolled sweep (Assuming Dragonite isn't running some other moveset), but at most it can delay (Roar) or cripple (Burn) Dragonite, not actually arrange to KO it -and if nothing on your team can wipe out Dragonite, even Burning it isn't necessarily adequate. I've actually had a match where the enemy Burned my Dragonite and the fact that they did so meant they weren't able to Paralyze it and therefore could not kill it. So they lost.

 

[IronicNinja]

Steel typing gets rid of its Weakness to SR, reduces its weakness to Ice to a 2x weakness (which is now its only weakness in most circumstances), and overall nets it a far better defensive typing for it to set up with.

Of course that's what Steel type is used for...

Stone Edge dents Flying Heatran. Dragonite has such a huge movepool it's very hard to find a reliable counter. It can even run Surf + Thunder + Hurricane under Rain if it chooses to. It's counterable only if there's a commonly agreed good move set, which is never going to happen.

And yeah, as mentioned it runs Steel purely due to Defensive advantage, not offensive.

Stone edge does dent flying Heatran. Maybe Choice Band Kyurem-Black? (As I mentioned before). Outrage+Teravolt+CB KO? Well yea I see how its S.

EDIT: Can Quaggy/Clefable Wall Dragonite?

Double EDIT: Focus Sash Topsy Turvy? (From Smeargle or Malamar)

 

[Ghoul King]

Quagsire can't touch Dragonite (Immune to Toxic and Earthquake), and Clefable isn't a reliable wall because Flinching. The best Quagsire can do is hope to Burn it with Scald.

 

[Red Cat]

Quagsire can't touch Dragonite (Immune to Toxic and Earthquake), and Clefable isn't a reliable wall because Flinching. The best Quagsire can do is hope to Burn it with Scald.

All Quagsire has to do is burn Dragonite and then Dragonite cannot touch Quagsire. Unless Dragonite has Roost, it is as good as dead at that point. If it does have Roost, it is missing a coverage move and can likely be walled by something else on your team if you are using a stall team. Dragonite is not much of a problem for a well built stall team because it is vulnerable to being burned.

 

[Isa Simple]

Firstly I'd just like to remind people that I've already stated I forgot to add the water typing in my Manaphy vs Clef calc so that's my bad.

and secondly
252+ Atk Steel Dragonite Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Water Clefable: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4.7% is hardly a chance to 3HKO meaning 95% of the time you are going to have to get 3 flinches in a row in order to take down clef, which you'd have to get pretty shit luck being the clef user. Also MoonBlast still hits for decent neutral damage so if the D-Nite is running coverage over roost clef wins 9 times outta 10.

Also I put 'mega' in brackets next to gyarados, I was mainly talking about normal Gyarados just mentioned the mega in case that was common cause idk this meta fully yet.
Of which this replays shows Clef to an extent stopping a gyarados and a dragonite:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/hiddentype-215173286

So at the end of the day water Clef still walls D-Nite, Dark Zard-X, Gyarados, Gatr, and Crawdaunt which is a very significant feet in a meta nominated by these sort of set ups sweeper.

I believe Quagsire can take on a few of these too and perhaps Mega T-Tar and Altaria as well but I don't have time to calc atm.

He's one more replay for good luck and because this meta is fun :)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/hiddentype-215171514

 

[skies]

Porygon-Z @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 Def / 30 SpD

- Tri Attack
- Shadow Ball
- Ice Beam / Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot

I'm not exactly a pro at Hidden Type, but I've been having tons of fun playing it so far. Every single match, this Porygon-Z has been my most valuable member. Normal / Ghost coverage hits so much it's unreal, and Porygon-Z has insane power to back it up thanks to Adaptability. Porygon-Z works well against the defensively oriented metagame thanks to its ability to set Nasty Plot against a lot of Pokemon that lack offensive presence themselves. One example is Chansey, who is easily set up and smack it with Ice Beam, which has the ability to 2HKO Chansey at +6. Even at just +2, nothing likes switching into this thing. If I were to rank it, I'd place it in the B Ranks, somewhere, but I'm not exactly sure where!

 

[IronicNinja]

Stall Teams may be really good, or I just suck. Here is me vs. Kl4ng's Stall Team (very nicely built, I must admit).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/hiddentype-215301640

Here is him in the finals aganist Betathunder :http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/hiddentype-215315379

Chansey (pretty sure Ghost) - Heal Bell support and excellent Special Wall. Chansey as always is pretty efficient at it's work. I don't know what to think about it (because it didn't too much vs. me), but maybe B+ rank.

Skarmory (Poison) - Being weak to Fire and Electric and resistant to so many things (Immune to Poison and Ground, *8 resistant to Bug and Grass, *4 resistant to Fairy, *2 resistant to Dragon, Flying, Normal, Steel, and Fighting). It gives in defog support, spikes support, and whirlwind/roar support. I again didn't really face this thing (mainly due to the fact I never got Stealth Rocks up because Sableye was griefing O_O) but it seems to be B/B+ rank based on its amazing resists.

Sableye-Mega (Water) - Amazing stall user (as always). Once the opponent's Clefable is gone (or isn't there), this thing wrecks the meta. Weak to Electric, Grass, and Fairy, he literally had a wall for both weaknesses (Skarmory and Gliscor). This thing definitely deserves A-, but I can see how it could be B-/B because of the Clefable presence. It also suffers aganist setup sweepers (like Manaphy), however that is walled by the next pokemon, Clefable :/

Clefable (Steel) - Unaware is an amazing ability. It only suffers from the fact that it has to have Moonlight since Soft-Boiled is 4th gen back. It patches many of the setup sweepers (Manaphy, Dragonite) and also can dish powerful Moonlights off. Again, I'd think this is A rank.

Gliscor (Water) - I also talked about this before, being a good wall and pivot. In all honesty, I could have swept with this if I had Swords Dance (because Clefable dies from Earthquake, Sableye can't do much) when Tangrowth was eliminated. Welp to see how much it does to me, I still agree with A rank for this thing.

Tangrowth (Steel) - AV Regenerator is very good, especially when u add Decent attack and lots of Defense. It took Knock offs like it was nothing, and regenerated back with Regenerator. B rank based on its performance aganist me.

I will decipher his movesets if Kl4ng allows me to. Also, Jack Dalton please update viability threads.

 

[Heroes and Cons]

Dragonite is honestly my pick for a possible ban. Certainly he should be suspect, since nothing can flat-out kill Steel Dragonite aside from some extremely obscure and flat-out unusable things like Choice Specs Kyurem, and with Roost it can come out ahead of even Will-o-wisp users.

 

[Ghoul King]

Firstly I'd just like to remind people that I've already stated I forgot to add the water typing in my Manaphy vs Clef calc so that's my bad.

and secondly
252+ Atk Steel Dragonite Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Water Clefable: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4.7% is hardly a chance to 3HKO meaning 95% of the time you are going to have to get 3 flinches in a row in order to take down clef, which you'd have to get pretty shit luck being the clef user. Also MoonBlast still hits for decent neutral damage so if the D-Nite is running coverage over roost clef wins 9 times outta 10.

Also I put 'mega' in brackets next to gyarados, I was mainly talking about normal Gyarados just mentioned the mega in case that was common cause idk this meta fully yet.
Of which this replays shows Clef to an extent stopping a gyarados and a dragonite:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/hiddentype-215173286

So at the end of the day water Clef still walls D-Nite, Dark Zard-X, Gyarados, Gatr, and Crawdaunt which is a very significant feet in a meta nominated by these sort of set ups sweeper.

I believe Quagsire can take on a few of these too and perhaps Mega T-Tar and Altaria as well but I don't have time to calc atm.

He's one more replay for good luck and because this meta is fun :)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/hiddentype-215171514

Dragonite doesn't need three Flinches in a row, it just needs enough Flinches to keep forcing Clefable to Moonlight until it runs out of PP. If Clefable is running Wish+Protect (Which is what it needs to be Unaware and capable of avoiding being PP stalled by Dragonite, it's either lacking Calm Mind or is a mono-attacker, neither of which is a good thing to be.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

I'm voting blaziken (Flying) for A rank (If the normal OU rules don't apply).

With A massive attack and speed stat as well as access to speed boost making it an offensive monster thinks to adamant and speed wise, a demon, the only thing that could make it better would be a massive move-pool. And it has just that. Flare blitz is good in its own right but it can only hit so much. Brave bird as a STAB would completely destroy new threats. We now have a Pokemon with 3 powerful STAB moves, speed boost, life orb (optional) and coverage. NOW i see why blaziken was banned to ubers.

It says in the OP that OU clauses apply.

Also, I would like to say that Dragonite can run EQ or Thunder Punch as coverage to hit Steel and Water Clefable respectively. This is part of what makes Steel Dragonite so good--it has a wide movepool consisting of boosting (Dragon Dance), recovery (Roost), STABs (Dragon Claw and Iron Head), and coverage (EQ, Elemental Punches, Extremespeed, Stone Edge, Superpower, Aqua Tail). It also has bulky Hone Claws Dragon Tail shuffling sets, and special sets (these work very well on Rain teams, as it has Thunder, Hurricane, and Surf). This is completely ignoring the fact that it has only one 2x weakness to Ice, a new neutrality to Stealth Rock, and Multiscale, allowing it to get up at least one Dragon Dance against 90%+ of the meta. Nothing can outright wallnn it, as you don't necessarily know what coverage it is running until you are dead. This was mainly to explain why it is S Rank, and that yes it can beat Clefable consistently if you run the right coverage. I also think I have found an outright counter to Grass Manaphy that isn't 2HKOed by any of its moves. AT +6!!! Well, technically Energy Ball has a 0.4% chance to 2HKO at +6 after Rocks but honestly, if you lose because of that then RIP, the hax gods hate you. And it can 2HKO back. I'll share it after some more testing :> Also, Volcarona OP, it helped get me to #10 ;)

 

[Isa Simple]

Regardless of whether dragonite can run different coverage to kill clef, or roost to stall out moon blasts, if it runs roost or Thunder Punch is missing out on other coverage options allowing it to be walled by something else. Even if you do have Thunder Punch Clef can scout with Protect if need be. At the end of the day however not perfect, Clefable is still one of the better D-Nite checks and is just in general a fantastic and versatile pokemon in this meta.

Are the any pokemon that are a perfect full stop to all possible D-Nite sets? Because the more people argue that it can beat clef (which really doesn't hurt clef's viability given that from what I'm hearing it beats 99% of the meta), the more I'm beginning to think Dragonite is broken.

 

[Jack Dalton]

All right, I've been busy with work and there's way too much discussion to catch up with. Here is a list of what I think A rank is looking like right now:

A+

Fire Altaria(Mega)

Water Gliscor

Ground Gyarados(Mega)

Flying/Grass Heatran

Water Hippowdon

Electric Lopunny(Mega)

Ground Slowbro(Mega)

A

Grass Charizard(Mega Y)

Dark/Electric Charizard(Mega X)

Dark Diggersby

Water/Dragon/Steel Clefable

Fighting Crawdaunt

Electric/Dark Gengar

Ground/Steel Keldeo

Water/Dark Mew

Fighting/Ground Pinsir(Mega)

Steel Rotom Wash

Poison/Dragon Skarmory

Steel Tornadus-Therian

Flying/Ghost Tyranitar


A-

Ghost Chansey

Water Dragalge

Electric Gardevoir(Mega)

Water Landorus-Therian

Dark Mamoswine

Fire Manectric(Mega)

Poison Scrafty

Steel/Grass Thundurus


Some of these mons are XY Hidden Type meta threats that are still very effective in ORAS, most notably Dark Landorus/Water Landorus-T who boast Gravity + Earth Power/Quake to deal with the Flying type shenanigans. Of course, this list is tentative and you can still discuss it while we head into B rank here. I'll try to keep this list updated as last minute discussion goes on, but we should aim to have it mostly finalized by the end of this week.

In the meantime, let's talk about all those "good, not super good though" mons. B rank nominations are ready to roll, and I'm going to kick it off with a classic: Flying Excadrill.

This was a mon widely used in the XY Hidden Type meta as the best spinner you could ask for; it loses its Ground and Fighting weakness, while gaining one weakness to Ice. Scarfed Flying Excadrill has a niche in Hidden Type not only as a spinner, but as a way to revenge kill things like Mega Altaria, Electric Gardevoir, and the odd Steel Levitators like Rotom Wash, Hydreigon, and the Latis. Manaphy is a great partner to this thing, as it often lures out Water Gliscor/Hippowdon.

**EDIT**
Updated 3/20/15
Landorus has ascended to S rank, Talonflame drops to B, Mega Lopunny rises to A+ with its high speed and perfect neutral coverage. Diggersby placed in A.

**EDIT 2**
Implemented Kl4ng's changes found here

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

All right, I've been busy with work and there's way too much discussion to catch up with. Here is a list of what I think A rank is looking like right now:

A+

Fire Altaria(Mega)

Electric Gardevoir(Mega)

Water Gliscor

Ground Gyarados

Flying/Grass Heatran

Dark Landorus

Water Hippowdon

A

Grass Charizard(Mega Y)

Dark Charizard(Mega X)

Water/Dragon/Steel Clefable

Fighting Crawdaunt

Electric Gengar

Ground Keldeo

Water/Dark Mew

Fighting/Ground Pinsir(Mega)

Steel Rotom Wash

Poison/Electric/Dragon Skarmory

Grass/Ground Talonflame

Steel Tornadus-Therian

Flying/Ghost Tyranitar

Ghost Umbreon

A-

Water Dragalge

Water Landorus-Therian

Electric Lopunny(Mega)

Dark Mamoswine

Fire Manectric(Mega)

Poison Scrafty

Steel/Grass Thundurus


Some of these mons are XY Hidden Type meta threats that are still very effective in ORAS, most notably Dark Landorus/Water Landorus-T who boast Gravity + Earth Power/Quake to deal with the Flying type shenanigans. Of course, this list is tentative and you can still discuss it while we head into B rank here. I'll try to keep this list updated as last minute discussion goes on, but we should aim to have it mostly finalized by the end of this week.

In the meantime, let's talk about all those "good, not super good though" mons. B rank nominations are ready to roll, and I'm going to kick it off with a classic: Flying Excadrill.

This was a mon widely used in the XY Hidden Type meta as the best spinner you could ask for; it loses its Ground and Fighting weakness, while gaining one weakness to Ice. Scarfed Flying Excadrill has a niche in Hidden Type not only as a spinner, but as a way to revenge kill things like Mega Altaria, Electric Gardevoir, and the odd Steel Levitators like Rotom Wash, Hydreigon, and the Latis. Manaphy is a great partner to this thing, as it often lures out Water Gliscor/Hippowdon.

Wow, that's great! I do feel like a couple things should be slashed though:
Poison Rotom-W is pretty cool as it is neutral to Grass and weak to Psychic, which is less common than Fighting. It also bluffs a Steel set with it's Grass neutrality/Toxic immunity, and let's it take Mega Pinsir CCs and Burn it back. Also unmissable Toxic if you want that.
Ghost Mega Lopunny, it gives you a Mach Punch/Extremespeed/Fake Out immunity making you less prone to getting revenge killed via priority. Electric is usually only better if you run Thunder Punch imo.
Dark Gengar gives it no weaknesses, allowing it to run Sub+WoW and/or Disable sets effectively. Also gives it STAB Dark Pulse, which is a slight upgrade over Shadow Ball, as the flinch chance is nice and nothing is immune to it, making mono-attacking sets more viable.
Steel Talonflame is basically Ground Talonflame with only a 2x Water weakness, an immunity to Poison, STAB Steel Wing, and a couple handy resistances (fuck Grass types lol).
I also think that Poison Crawdaunt is worthy of mention, it gives it only 2 weaknesses to Electric and Ground, with a few other neutralities, including Grass. This allows it to set up a Dragon Dance on Manaphy and then nail it with Knock Off (I don't think it tanks a +3 one, but it is still a neat revenge killer if Manaphy simply attacked). It also nails everything hard at +1 with LO with it's adaptability boosted STABs, and if you get up a couple Dragon Dances, RIP everything outside Clefable.
I'll also nominate Volcarona for B/B- Rank (I'll do a writeup tomorrow)
Why isn't Ice/Bug Talonflame slashed, OP asf obviously o3o

 

[DinaIsha]

The more I see Stall teams slap on Steel and call it a day, the more I feel is the viability of a Specd HP Fire (Carrying the actual move) Magnezone. You can be sure to net at least 2 KOs on a Stall team, looking at the way it's going now.

 

[Isa Simple]

With the slashing of Hidden Types (e.g. Grass/Flying Heatran) on the viability rankings, is it possible for a given pokemon to appear multiple times if say one typing clearly outclassed another 8 times outta 10, but then the other given type still had a niche notable enough to land itself in another rank?

 

[Jack Dalton]

Short answer? Yes.

Long answer? Yes, if those sets are actually viable to some degree and function differently. Something like Electric Heatran isn't going to be listed because it adds no new dynamic to the mon.

A Pokemon with a lot of potential for showing up multiple times in the rankings is Mew. Its vast movepool allows it to run basically whatever the hell it wants. Need a specially offensive Psychic/Electric pivot? Roost/Volt Switch/Psyshock/Ice Beam. Want a really doofy Mega Gallade? Go for Psychic/Fighting. Mew is very unpredictable, it's just those sets aren't A rank material and would usually be very niche.

 

[IronicNinja]

My opinions on the viability rankings:

A+

Fire Altaria(Mega) - Where is steel? It only has one weakness which is Ground. Otherwise, Agreed.

Electric Gardevoir(Mega) - STAB Thunderbolt is powerful. Agreed.

Water Gliscor - Agreed.

Ground Gyarados - Agreed.

Flying/Grass Heatran - Grass is OK. I think Grass deserves A.

Water Hippowdon - Water Hippowdon = more bulky Swampert...Agreed.

Dark Landorus - Can someone Explain this for me? STAB Knock Off?

A

Grass Charizard(Mega Y) - Makes sense.

Dark Charizard(Mega X) - Makes Sense but Water Clefable sort of walls it to death.

Water/Dragon/Steel Clefable - Eh IDK about Dragon but for Water/Steel it makes sense.

Fighting Crawdaunt - Agreed. Nice STAB Superpower.

Electric Gengar - Thunderbolt? I guess because of the many electric weaknesses now. Dark seems ok with Dark Pulse. Dark seems like B/B+.

Ground Keldeo - I really don't understand. Ground? Someone Explain this too me to please (sorry).

Water/Dark Mew - OK nice typing + STAB Knock off or Scald.

Fighting/Ground Pinsir(Mega) - OK makes sense. Ground takes out Steel Clefable and Fighting is just powerful.

Steel Rotom Wash - I guess...only Fighting weakness seems OK. Agreed.

Poison/Electric/Dragon Skarmory - Definitely agreed.

Grass/Ground Talonflame - Why Grass/Ground? Why not Steel for STAB Steel Wing?

Steel Tornadus-Therian - Nice :D

Flying/Ghost Tyranitar - I'm not sure because I never use Tyranitar. Ghost makes sense and so does Flying.

Ghost Umbreon - Ghost/Dark is a nice typing so definitely.

A-

Water Dragalge- Adaptability Hydro Pump/Scald Dragalge.

Water Landorus-Therian - OK but I feel like Gyarados > Landorus-Therian.

Electric Lopunny(Mega) - Electric may not be the best typing but Lopunny (Mega) itself definitely deserves A-.

Dark Mamoswine - I guess for STAB Knock Off, but I don't understand that much.

Fire Manectric(Mega) - Ok Flamethrower/Overheat, agreed.

Poison Scrafty - Makes Sense.

Steel/Grass Thundurus - I don't know about Grass, but Steel makes sense.

Ghost Chansey - A?
Poison/Water Sableye - A-?
WHERE'S GRASS MANAPHY - A/A+
Steel Lati@s - B
Flying Magneton - B/B+? It KO's non-Fire Punch Dragonite, and KO's many of the other steel types there are (which is a crap lot).
Steel Rotom-Heat - B with STAB Overheat killing them Steels is pretty good.
Rock Breloom - A- because nice Technician Rock Tomb.
Electric Kyurem-Black - Can take care of S Steel Dragonite easily and does alot of other things that are bulky because of their ability (Mega-Venu etc.).
Steel Mega-Venusaur - Maybe B-. Haven't used it yet though.
Dark/Dragon/Fighting Blastoise (B+) and Clawtizer (B-) - Very nice Mega Launcher ability.

I'm done :D

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

The complete lack of grass types in the viability rankings is dumb (Manaphy doesn't count :/ ). Grass is a very potent typing in this meta, so I'm going to nominate this for at least A-, just to get the ball rolling.

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
Evs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 SpD (Steel)
- Taunt
- Glare
- Giga Drain
- Leaf Storm

This set might look weird but it functions quite well. Serperior didn't even make a splash last time Hidden Type was OMOTM, but this time around it has a very useful ability to give it a little extra to make it viable.

Here we have a stall breaker, wall breaker, and late game sweeper in one neat little package. With steel as a secondary typing, four weaknesses are traded for two(well one really since it's already weak to fire). Combine the effectiveness of grass in this meta with a potent powerhouse and you have a very viable mon. Sets up on chansey, paralyzes stuff on the switch, taunts dragon dancers and rock setters, creates easy switch opportunities, shuts down stall, sweeps late game, reliable recovery; what more does it need to be ranked?

 

[DinaIsha]

The complete lack of grass types in the viability rankings is dumb (Manaphy doesn't count :/ ). Grass is a very potent typing in this meta, so I'm going to nominate this for at least A-, just to get the ball rolling.

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
Evs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 SpD (Steel)
- Taunt
- Glare
- Giga Drain
- Leaf Storm

This set might look weird but it functions quite well. Serperior didn't even make a splash last time Hidden Type was OMOTM, but this time around it has a very useful ability to give it a little extra to make it viable.

Here we have a stall breaker, wall breaker, and late game sweeper in one neat little package. With steel as a secondary typing, four weaknesses are traded for two(well one really since it's already weak to fire). Combine the effectiveness of grass in this meta with a potent powerhouse and you have a very viable mon. Sets up on chansey, paralyzes stuff on the switch, taunts dragon dancers and rock setters, creates easy switch opportunities, shuts down stall, sweeps late game, reliable recovery; what more does it need to be ranked?

Why run Giga Drain? I'd run HP Rock for good coverage, especially against Heatran. Grass/Rock isn't half as bad.

One more thing I'd like to touch up on is Gatr. With its new toy Sheer Force and access to Swords Dance and Dragon Dance make it an absolutely devastating force against Stall.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

Why run Giga Drain? I'd run HP Rock for good coverage, especially against Heatran. Grass/Rock isn't half as bad.

One more thing I'd like to touch up on is Gatr. With its new toy Sheer Force and access to Swords Dance and Dragon Dance make it an absolutely devastating force against Stall.

I use giga drain over HP rock so I can use the awesome grass/steel typing, it is a form of recovery, and also because Serperior doesn't need coverage after a team is sufficiently weakened. Get rid of Serp's checks/counters and destroy. Nothing wants to come in on a +2 130 BP Stab, in a meta where grass weakness is so common. Running a coverage move sort of defeats the purpose of using this because it limits the good utility it has and makes it rely on a weak BP 60 move that also hinders a fantastic typing.

 

[Ghoul King]

A+

Dark Landorus

Like other people, I don't quite follow the logic on Dark Landorus-Incarnate. What does it get out of it? I've fought it, but I don't get it. Everything else in A+ I agree with.

A

Ground Keldeo

Grass/Ground Talonflame

Again, why Grass for Talonflame? I get Ground, overall, since it provides immunity to Electric while resisting Stealth Rock, but Grass providing resistance to Water is kind of meh when Stealth Rock rips off half your health, it adds no notable STAB, it renders you weak to Poison, Flying, and Ice... If you want Water resistance, Dragon is far more useful (Gain a Dragon and Ice weakness, stop being weak to Water and Electric) and Water works if you're OK with a double Electric weakness. (And Ground typing leaves you with a double Water weakness too, so "double weakness=awful" clearly doesn't apply)

I've also seen Ground Keldeo so I won't argue it doesn't happen, but I have always been puzzled as to the appeal. Yeah, it removes the Electric weakness, but it also leaves Keldeo cripplingly weak to Grass and the double resistance to Rock is meh while the resistance to Poison is less meh but still meh. Is there really no other type that is better for it?

A-

Dark Mamoswine

Steel/Grass Thundurus

I still don't get Dark Mamoswine. Yay double Fighting weakness, in exchange for STAB on Knock Off? Again, I've seen people run it, I just find it strange.

I'm more curious about Grass Thundurus. Why would you do that? Especially since anybody assuming Steel is likely to hit it with Fire anyway and still kill it.

In the meantime, let's talk about all those "good, not super good though" mons. B rank nominations are ready to roll, and I'm going to kick it off with a classic: Flying Excadrill.

Definitely somewhere in B. Flying Excadrill is nice, but not amazing, especially since stuff like Flying Heatran laughs at it. (It honestly surprised me how underwhelming Flying Excadrill actually is)

Kind of surprised I've never seen Ground Tentacruel used as a Rapid Spinner, or maybe Grass or something.

WHERE'S GRASS MANAPHY - A/A+

It's in S.

Flying Magneton - B/B+? It KO's non-Fire Punch Dragonite, and KO's many of the other steel types there are (which is a crap lot).

Absolutely a solid B-something, but it doesn't actually KO Steel Dragonite if it's carrying Roost.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Fire Magneton Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Steel Dragonite: 99-117 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- 49.9% chance to 3HKO

Meanwhile

+1 252+ Atk Steel Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Fire Magneton: 114-135 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO

Will usually 2HKO it. Replacing the Specs with Eviolite just means Dragonite can use a mix of Dragon Dance and Roost and ultimately kill it and everything it loves.

EDIT: Actually, why am I taking seriously the idea of Hidden Power Fire on a Flying type Magneton?

Rock Breloom - A- because nice Technician Rock Tomb.

I agree, particularly since it combos well with its defensive typing.

Electric Kyurem-Black - Can take care of S Steel Dragonite easily and does alot of other things that are bulky because of their ability (Mega-Venu etc.).

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 440-518 (110.8 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If you say so. Also, if you're Banded, you need Outrage for the reliable OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Steel Dragonite: 274-324 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

or else you have almost no shot at it.

If you're not Banded, you're Scarfed and now Outrage has that tiny chance of a OHKO, you are restricted to revenging Dragonite and only once it's wounded, and only if it hasn't gotten two Dragon Dances up. Either way, it still OHKOs you.

This is an extremely questionable "takes care of Steel Dragonite easily".

Are the any pokemon that are a perfect full stop to all possible D-Nite sets? Because the more people argue that it can beat clef (which really doesn't hurt clef's viability given that from what I'm hearing it beats 99% of the meta), the more I'm beginning to think Dragonite is broken.

Electric Mega Gardevoir murders Clefable unless it's running Steel, and potentially even then, Poison Scrafty murders Clefable no matter what set it's running so long as it doesn't horribly mis-predict, Dragalge will Sludge Wave non-Steel variants, Grass Mega Charizard Y will Solar Beam Water variants and Fire Blast anything else, Grass Manaphy annihilates it with Energy Ball as previously covered... it hard-walls some important Pokemon, but Clefable doesn't "beat 99% of the meta". It just reliably beats some of staples.

I'm also not following the logic that Clefable being unable to reliably beat Dragonite=Dragonite is broken, particularly when paired with an assertion amounting to "Clefable is broken, and that's a good thing".

Dragonite is generally brought to a screeching halt by...

-Flying Heatran. Even carrying Thunderpunch or the like only goes so far to mitigate this. (Special Rain Dragonite not so much, but it's probably obvious that it's coming)

-Grass Heatran. If Dragonite is carrying Earthquake, it can put some pain in on Heatran, but if it isn't it's got nothing it can do at all. (Special Rain Dragonite can get in some damage, but not nearly as well as against Flying Heatran)

-Quagsire, sort of. (It can't Toxic it, but it can Burn it and then either push through a lot of PP or pass the buck off to some other, non-Unaware wall, or to an Unaware Clefable)

-Non-Dragon Skarmory is unafraid of anything except bizarre, Fire Blast carrying sets, and any set carrying Fire Blast specifically to counter Skarmory is much, much less threatening. And then it can Whirlwind out Dragonite just fine.

-Water Hippowdon. Draco Meteor is basically all Dragonite can carry to seriously hurt it (No you can't carry Hidden Power Grass, because that means you're Grass Dragonite and hilariously bad. lol x8 Ice weakness), and it again severely compromises Dragonite's ability to threaten other things.

-Water Gliscor, sort of. With good prediction you can Knock Off Dragonite's HP down to Roosting levels and then catch it with Earthquake and kill it. Ice Punch is all Dragonite can carry to hurry things up, and honestly it's probably not worth it -Dragon Claw is almost as powerful and doesn't involve compromising Dragonite's utility.

-Water Ferrothorn, or Ghost Ferrothorn. Not perfect, particularly the latter if Dragonite carries Fire Punch or the like, but just the ability to throw out Leech Seed, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, etc means Dragonite really really doesn't want to stay in on it when it can't even take it down without substantial boosting.

-Steel Mega Slowbro. +6 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steel Mega Slowbro: 137-162 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Just spam Calm Mind and Slack Off and then murder Dragonite. Or spam Scald and Slack Off. Carrying Thunderpunch or Earthquake helps, but it still requires heavy boosting to work, +6 252+ Atk burned Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 229-270 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO as in Mega Slowbro has to let you get all the way to +6 to actually start dying if it gets you Burned with Scald. And even then, it can potentially Slack Off through the attacks until Dragonite Burns to death, or with good prediction get a hit in when Dragonite Roosts. Not even getting into the possibility of Iron Defense Mega Slowbro, which laughs at any Dragonite that isn't carrying Special.

I am 99% confident there's other stuff I'm not thinking of/not remembering/whatever that do a solid job too, it's just they aren't the shiny favorites of Hidden Type. The above is just a number of things I've actually seen a decent amount. (Well, less so Steel Mega Slowbro)

 

[Red Cat]

I use giga drain over HP rock so I can use the awesome grass/steel typing, it is a form of recovery, and also because Serperior doesn't need coverage after a team is sufficiently weakened. Get rid of Serp's checks/counters and destroy. Nothing wants to come in on a +2 130 BP Stab, in a meta where grass weakness is so common. Running a coverage move sort of defeats the purpose of using this because it limits the good utility it has and makes it rely on a weak BP 60 move that also hinders a fantastic typing.

After the game we just played, you might want to run some coverage moves on that thing.

 

[Jack Dalton]

Serperior is really mediocre, especially when it's mono-attacking.

It's average defenses really don't justify trying to add a defensive typing to it, especially at the cost of valuable coverage. The reason that Manaphy does Grass well is because it has literally unresisted coverage outside of some incredibly niche things like Fire Ludicolo and Steel Toxicroak. This allows it to hit basically anything in the meta for huge damage after a Tail Glow, and there really isn't much that enjoys switching in on it. Meanwhile, even offense has switchins for this thing:

Steel Dragonite and Fire Mega Altaria immediately threaten Serperior's life, and all it can really do is Glare on the switch and then run away to a more valuable teammate who can actually manage these threats. Fire Magnezone, as mentioned above, can come in on this and get an easy free kill. Heatran and Tangrowth come in on this for free, heck half the A rank mons beat this thing 1v1. The best thing it does is Glare, and revenge kill Water/Grounds(who can just switch into a counter to Serperior because there are so many). If you want Paralysis, just use Thundurus. Prankster Twave, Nasty Plot, and actual coverage moves that it can opt to have STAB for. Not to mention the capability to go mixed.