Hitmonchan (Bulk Up)

NightShadow

I was looking at the NU list and I came across Hitmonchan, which I saw was rather neglected and had some rather subpar sets, namely SubPunch. Then I saw its reasonably high attack and its low defense, and that it got bulk up. idea. If someone can please help me tweak the EVs or something (i'm not that good with them:/). credits to arkeis for the pics :)

hitmonchan.png

Hitmonchan

[SET]
name: SubPunch + Bulk Up
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Bulk Up
move 3: Focus Punch
move 4: Ice Punch / ThunderPunch
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Iron Fist
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 200 Atk / 52 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on site:
- Hits quite hard with one Bulk Up. Hits incredibly hard with Focus Punch.
- Most people expect Agility, switching to a Pokemon with priority.
- Has decent special bulk (and physical with one Bulk Up).
- Gets great coverage.
- Gets more freedom than CB set, but hits as hard and also gets defense boost (after one BU).
- Not outclassed by other set-up Pokes, like Toxicroak because most of the times the difference in bulk and offenses is very noticeable.

Additional Comments:
- Ice Punch hits more Pokemon, but is walled badly by Moltres, so ThunderPunch is an option.

Teammates and Counters:
- Entry hazards, preferably 3 layers of spikes and SR are perfect to get as much damage on the opponent as possible. SR is incredibly important.
- Bulky Fighting resisters which are neutral/resist Hitmonchan's secondary move. Nidoqueen and Claydol work if it has T-punch, Ice punch would be a bit trickier but Weezing handles it excellently and can get a WoW on it.
- Status absorber is a good teammate, to absorb WoWs.
- Strong special attacker to dispatch physical walls, like Mismagius or special LO venusaur, etc.
 
I don't think you'll be needing Thunderpunch to hurt bulky Waters since Close Combat would do more anyway (eg vs Milotic CC = 216 BP while Thunderpunch is 180 BP factoring in STAB or x2 with Iron Fist). Hitmonchan really needs the extra power, IMO, so CC is probably a better option (Screw the Defense boost, just treat it like Meditate or something). I think Stone Edge is probably a better slash option in the last spot so you still hit Flying types while being a reasonably strong attack to hit Fighting immunes with (eg Mismagius)
 
I remember some Youtuber making a set like this. I think it was Xenon. The main difference was the main STAB attack was Drain Punch, which had nice synergy with bulk up and Iron Fist (still a gimmick). I'll let the CQ staff judge whether or not this is a gimmick, but just remember that Hitmonchan has better options for stab than Brick Break. Sky Uppercut gets the boost from Iron Fist and is probably this set's best bet.
 
I can't believe I'm saying this but I think Drain Punch would actually have some utility (not as the main STAB but as a secondary option to Mach Punch or in AC because it gets a decent 72 power with iron fist not taking STAB in to account) and helps restore HP on the bulky Fighter theme. Mach Punch doesn't seem to be doing much anyway. Also what do the speed evs accomplish? Personally I would dump some in SpD so I can take hits from that side, dump a few in speed enough to beat Milotic or something and dump the rest in HP and call it a day. Also you need to emphasize it's advantages over it's big brother Hitmontop who runs a similar set.
 
I think hitmonchan is too frail to survive more than 2 (at most) bulk ups without a reliable recovery option.
 
shrang said:
(eg vs Milotic CC = 216 BP while Thunderpunch is 180 BP factoring in STAB or x2 with Iron Fist)
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Close Combat doesn't benefit from Iron Fist.

On paper I'm seeing good Atk, good SpD and decent priority so it's all good so far but in reality Mach Punch is just too weak in this case. At +1, whilst holding a Life Orb, Mach Punch fails to OHKO Swellow (90% on avg). Now yes, I know 'Stealth Rock' but that's just an example of how weak Mach Punch is and with that in mind, I can't see the appeal of this set anymore. It simply doesn't do a good enough job at protecting him from revenge kills - Alakazam, Rotom, Scyther, Mismagius, Venusaur, Moltres and many more just don't care about it and they can all end his sweep with their standard sets.

Outclassed as a boosting Fighting type with priority by Toxicroak.
 
Outclassed as a boosting Fighting type with priority by Toxicroak.
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I was following you at first, but statements like these make me want to slam my head on something. They're weighted, way too general, and obviously untrue. Let's start with the biggest differences here: which Pokemon of these two is weak to EQ (and by extension, Dugtrio)? Which of these two is weak to Fire courtesy of its best and most common ability? Which of these two has Iron Fist and a reliable physical STAB boosted by said ability?

Toxicroak is the better Pokemon, that much is true, but in the context of this set, it's irrelevant and undermines their obvious disparities as Pokemon in general.

In fact, I'd actually be more concerned with what this set offers over Hitmontop. Their typing is the same and their stat spreads are awfully similar, with Hitmontop possessing markedly better defense. Technichian gives the bigger boost to Mach Punch, meaning Top is going to have the higher damage output even with Chan's higher base attack considered. Hitmonchan may be able to outspeed and Sky Uppercut defensive Milotic before it Hazes without wasting too many EVs on speed, but other than that, this set moves dangerously close to Hitmontop's territory.

Set-wise, CC doesn't make any sense here, so I'd advise you to get rid of that right away and replace it with Sky Uppercut or Drain Punch (both boosted by Iron Fist). The main STAB option of boosting sweeper sets should never be something that negates your boosts.

Unfortunately, Hitmonchan sits just below the base 80 benchmark, meaning going full speed is less practical. You should run just enough to outspeed certain walls (like Milotic), and put the rest in your attack and defenses.

For example, if you run 252 HP/52 Speed/and 200 Att @ Leftovers, +1 Fire Punch KOs offensive Venusaur after SR (86.4% - 101.7%), while Leaf Storm maxes out at ~89% (75.3% - 88.8%). Hitmonchan is not a standard sweeper by any means, so if you were to go along this route, go with the bulk.
 
I was following you at first, but statements like these make me want to slam my head on something. They're weighted, way too general, and obviously untrue. Let's start with the biggest differences here: which Pokemon of these two is weak to EQ (and by extension, Dugtrio)? Which of these two is weak to Fire courtesy of its best and most common ability? Which of these two has Iron Fist and a reliable physical STAB boosted by said ability?
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I didn't say 'completely inferior in every possible way,' I said outclassed and it's true.

outclass - to surpass something or somebody else, so as to appear to be in a higher class
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Much like how Garchomp 'outclasses' Zangoose. Sure, I could sit here and tell you that Zangoose resists Ghost, has Immunity and STAB Return but none of that changes the fact that Garchomp outclasses him as a Swords Dance sweeper. I cannot begin to think of a team where I would think to myself 'Hmm, Bulk Up Hitmonchan would be a better choice than Swords Dance Toxicroak in this slot.'

Aside from that, the supposed advantages of Hitmonchan that you posted are all easily refuted. Toxicroak KO's Duggy with Sucker Punch unless it's running Sub (rare) so I don't know why you're bringing up Duggy. Hitmonchan isn't exactly setting up on any Fire Pokemon as they all tend to hit ridiculously hard (Moltres, Blaziken, Magmortar, Arcanine)...maybe if he resisted Fire we could talk. And which 'reliable' STAB is this that you speak of? Sky Uppercut? At 90% it's barely reliable and shows just how much you're grasping at straws to list Hitmonchan's advantages here.

tl;dr Toxicroak still outclasses this so get back to slamming your head on something.
 
I agree that Hitmonchan is outclassed as both a bulk up sweeper and a fighting type in general by both Toxicroak and Hitmontop. But that's the main reason why you might consider something like this; Hitmonchan is NU. I don't know if it is Smogon's policy to recognize NU as a playable tier, but that seems to be where Hitmonchan's usefulness is. It makes sense to focus on that on it's analysis.
 
Much like how Garchomp 'outclasses' Zangoose. Sure, I could sit here and tell you that Zangoose resists Ghost, has Immunity and STAB Return but none of that changes the fact that Garchomp outclasses him as a Swords Dance sweeper.
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Zangoose and Garchomp aren't and never were in the same metagame, so there's no competition for a team slot to consider. If SD Zangoose had to go through QC, it would get in without question because it's the best way to use Zangoose.

Along the same vein, we should be thinking about the best ways to use Hitmonchan. It's tiering already tells us that Toxicroak is the better Pokemon, so statements like "Toxicroak outclasses it" are useless and gives no insight to the capabilities of this set. Toxicroak does not run this set, its typing and defenses make it less efficient at this role, and it doesn't have access to a lot of the tools Hitmonchan has that could make this set work.

Again:
Toxicroak is the better Pokemon, that much is true, but in the context of this set, it's irrelevant and undermines their obvious disparities as Pokemon in general.
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The only hurdle that really needs to be jumped here is whether or not Iron Fist and its higher base speed give it enough leverage to justify using this set over the extremely similar Hitmontop.
 
Zangoose and Garchomp aren't and never were in the same metagame
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Early DP, Zangoose was BL so the only metagames he could compete in were OU and Ubers, so yeah 'never were' is incorrect but I digress...this whole issue is derailing the thread. I've already listed why I thought this set wasn't worthy. The Toxicroak comment was not the crux of my post, more of a nail in the coffin.

The only hurdle that really needs to be jumped here is whether or not Iron Fist and its higher base speed give it enough leverage to justify using this set over the extremely similar Hitmontop.
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Surely the more important hurdle is whether this set functions well enough for us to reccomend it to the community? Whatever, I'll leave it to the QC guys but to reiterate what I said before: my main problem is that Mach Punch is the core of the set but it doesn't prove all too useful in preventing revenge kills from the Pokemon that would look to revenge Hitmonchan so I don't see the point in basing a set around it.
 
I agree with Lee about it seeming that Mach Punch is the main focus of the set, when the title states that this is a Bulk Up set. Mach Punch isn't that great, and Hitmontop does it better with Technician. One issue that you need to address is how this set has advantages over Hitmontop's Bulk Up set. I also have a couple of suggestions. I would put Drain Punch on your set, as it gets STAB and a boost from Iron Fist, in addition to giving Hitmonchan a way to recover damage. Additionally, I personally believe that Ice Punch and Thunderpunch should be on the set together, giving Hitmonchan great coverage. Therefore, the set that I'm proposing is something like this:

Hitmonchan@Life Orb/Leftovers/Expert Belt (keeping your item choice)
Iron Fist
Jolly/Adamant Nature
252 HP/200 Atk/56 Spe
-Bulk Up
-Drain Punch
-Ice Punch
-Thunderpunch

This set may be acceptable, as it has great coverage while allowing Hitmonchan to use its Iron Fist and Bulk Up boosts effectively. If someone wants to test this set to see how effective it is, feel free to do so. Otherwise, I hope my comments helped!

EDIT: I agree with SJCrew's comment below this post that you need to invest in HP. I've changed the EVs on my set to match SJCrew's earlier spread, because...well, because his spread has more bulk while giving Hitmonchan the opportunity to put the hurt on the opponent.
 
You really, really need to invest in HP. I cannot stress enough how important it is for a slow Pokemon like Hitmonchan to survive attacks. That way you get better mileage out of Bulk Up, and don't have to skim on any of its offense. The spread I posted earlier is probably the best you can do.

name: Bulk Up
move 1: Bulk Up
move 2: Sky Uppercut/Drain Punch
move 3: Mach Punch
move 4: Ice Punch
item: Leftovers
ability: Iron Fist
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP/200 Att/52 Speed

52 speed is just above Milotic, who is probably the biggest obstacle for Curse/Bulk Up sets will encounter in UU. Ice Punch is mandatory for not getting walled by Venusaur, and Mach Punch is necessary for not losing to the likes of Swellow, and almost any other fast and powerful sweeper.
 
thank you everybody, and shrang sorry i listed brick break because I forgot CC only decreased defense and sp.def :/

i will change the EVs to SJcrew's spread, looks a lot better. I'm not so sure about lefties being the primary item, lack of power?
 
NightShadow said:
thank you everybody, and shrang sorry i listed brick break because I forgot CC only decreased defense and sp.def :/

i will change the EVs to SJcrew's spread, looks a lot better. I'm not so sure about lefties being the primary item, lack of power?
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Well, you should be. Remember how a lack of recovery will kill this set? Lefties is Hitmonchan's only source of recovery. Not to mention you have an attack boosting move, so hitting power should not worry you too much
 
The problem with that analogy is that you don't get STAB on Shell Bell and it recovers a pathetic 1/8th of the damage dealth when you could be using Leftovers to get a consistent 6% return regardless of whether or not you attack.

Between Drain Punch and Sky Uppercut, it's a tossup based on whether your looking for more power or more longevity. Both are boosted by Iron Fist and don't have any major drawbacks to offset their perks, so there isn't really a clear winner here.

Truthfully, the only reason I haven't personally tried this set out is that Moltres completely and utterly blocks it with Ice Punch and you won't KO Venusaur without. You could run a Careful nature and Sp. Def EVs to not get OHKOed by Air Slash, but that's just getting ridiculous. It's on my to-do list, though, and I'll have a few words once I've tested it.
 
What advantages does this have over Hitmontop? And no, "Iron Fist" is not an advantage, Technician is much better given the moves you have.

Unless you can post those advantages, I will probably have to reject this. If I were you, I would think about making this a SubPunch Bulk Up set, since that would be better than Hitmontop due to Iron First making Focus Punch insanely powerful (+1 Lefties max Atk Focus Punch against Milotic: 88.5% - 104.6%). The current substitute set is kinda terrible anyway. Sub/Bulk Up/Focus Punch/Ice Punch would be nice. Note that Iron First-boosted Ice Punch nicely dents Venusaur too, although unfortunately it doesn't KO without two SR switchins or a round of Life Orb.
 
lets see some subpunch calcs:

LO Hitmonchan +1 Focus Punch vs 248/252 Milotic: OHKO with SR on field.
LO Hitmonchan +1 Focus Punch vs 252/100 Registeel: OHKO
LO Hitmonchan +1 Ice Punch vs 0/4 Venusaur: OHKO
LO Hitmonchan +1 Ice Punch vs 252/4 Venusaur: OHKO with SR on field.
LO Hitmonchan +1 Focus Punch vs 120/152 Arcanine: OHKO with SR on field.
LO Hitmonchan +1 Ice Punch vs 252/252 Rotom: About 40% (?) chance to 2HKO with SR on field.

wow. focus punch does hit ridiculously hard O.O

Highlights importance of SR. best counters are Uxie (takes pitiful damage from Ice Punch, even at +1, and Moltres (depending on Ice Punch or ThunderPunch).

I decided to change the set to SubPunch + Bulk Up (any other names ppl lol).
 
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