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Hitmonlee

porky said:
red12345 said:
SubLiechi+Mach Punch + 2 Moves. GG

120 Base attack and Base 87 Speed with those boosts is GG
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people keep forgetting priority.
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I'm not sure why you quoted him when you said that, as he specifically mentioned Mach Punch for a set like that. :0 Few priority users resist Mach Punch (ExSpeed Dragonite being one of the few, but with defensive Multiscale sets common, I wouldn't expect to see much of this).

Then you just have CC and Stone Edge for the last two moves, I guess (theoretically Sucker Punch could work instead of Stone Edge, but is too easily gotten around). I personally think it's a great idea and excellent use of Unburden.
 
Has anyone mentioned something similar to the old Drifblim CM set?

Bulk Up, Rest, HJK, and Stone Edge - with a Chesto Berry?

Come in on something not so threatening - Bulk Up as much as you can, rest off the damage/burn and try and sweep? I'd imagine with Hitmonlee's above average Special Defense, this could be a viable set.
 
Hitmonlee @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Unburden
Nature: Careful
EV: 200 Hp, 52 Atk, 100 SpD, 156 Spe
-Bulk Up
-Rest
-HJK
-Sucker Punch/Blaze Kick/Bullet Punch/Utility Move

Evs are for max bulkiness when resting, while the Speed Evs allow you to outspeed +1 positive natured base 100s after unburden boost. With a few Bulk Ups, Hitmonlee wrecks everything, and is very very hard to take down, especially if it OHKOs the opponents counter with it's own priority
 
The problem with the above two sets is that hitmonlee has 50 HP and 53 defense. Although you could probably get a bulk up on the switch, but they're probably bringing in a ghost that will burn you.
 
Rest gets rid of the burn though, that's the point of the set.

Sent in Hitmonlee on something it will scare out. Bulk Up and if they bring in, say, a Dusknoir, just keep bulking up as they Will-o-Wisp. Rest when health gets pretty low and then sweep away.
 
Hitmonlee @ Normal Gem
Ability: Unburden
Nature: Jolly/Adamant
EV: 252 Atk 252 Spe 4 HP
- Fake Out
- High Jump Kick/Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Mach Punch/Earthquake
 
Pseudosaur said:
Hitmonlee @ Normal Gem
Ability: Unburden
Nature: Jolly/Adamant
EV: 252 Atk 252 Spe 4 HP
- Fake Out
- High Jump Kick/Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Mach Punch/Earthquake
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Just no. When will people realize that Normal Gem + Fake Out is a terrible combination? It will just go from a paltry 40 BP to a still pathetic 60 BP. Honestly, Gems in general are outclassed, only being useful in doubles and triples. If you want to activate Unburden, you are better off using a pinch berry or hell, you may as well use Fling since you have it.

And if you MUST use a gem, use a fighting one. Also, remove HJK because Close Combat is better. It won't miss and you won't get raped by Protect.
 
No, Fake Out+Normal Gem has merit as a basically guaranteed speed boost (since Gliscor, Vaporeon, Politoed, and Blissey/Chansey are the only even remotely common pokemon that run Protect on their standard sets), and Hitmonlee will never muscle through Gliscor anyway. Close Combat is inferior since he won''t have any chance at all to survive priority then, since at -1 Def Conk's unboosted Iron Fist Mach Punch 1hko's after SR, meaning that other unboosted priority at that strength level will also 1hko. Also, the extra 10 BP is actually noticeable for guaranteeing some KO's, as is shown here:

Jolly HJK vs. 4/0 Ludicolo: (89.70% - 105.65%) (guaranteed 1hko after SR)
Jolly CC: (82.72% - 97.67%) (50% chance to KO after SR)
Jolly HJK vs. 4/0 Kingdra/Serperior: (72.16% - 84.88%) (guaranteed KO after Fake Out+SR, likely KO after switching into SR twice)
Jolly CC: (67.01% - 78.69%) (almost impossible to KO after switching into SR twice)
Jolly HJK vs. 4/0 Genesect: (74.47% - 87.59%) (basically guaranteed 1hko after SR twice or SR+Spikes)
Jolly CC: (69.15% - 81.21%) (50% chance of the same 1hko)
Jolly HJK vs. 252/64 Ferrothorn: (85.80% - 101.14%) (40% 1hko chance with just SR)
Jolly CC: (78.98% - 93.75%) (impossible to 1hko with just SR)
Jolly HJK vs. 4/0 Latios: (39.87% - 47.18%) (potential 2hko with 1 hit of SR)
Jolly CC: (36.88% - 43.85%) (requires sandstorm+SR to guarantee a 2hko)
Jolly HJK vs. 4/0 Infernape: (90.44% - 106.83%) (guaranteed KO after SR)
Jolly CC: (83.96% - 98.63%) (not guaranteed)

Against things in roughly the same class of bulk as the above, HJK grants guaranteed KO power, whereas CC falls short.
 
^Pretty much that. And using pinch berries to activate unburden is a bad idea with sandstorm everywhere. Hitmonlee isn't exactly the fastest thing around to get away with spamming substitute. And the idea of using endure is laughable.
 
Although useless in OU, I've been using Hitmonlee in UU just to dick all over sun teams. After Unburden it outspeeds every major sweeper (they ALL invest in bulk so stuff like Sawsbuck cant do shit) and OHKOs the regular sweepers after SR with Hi-Jump Kick / Stone Edge / Blaze Kick. Still horrendously walled by Dusclops though but hey just use CM entei or something

Trust me try it out its fairly solid anti-metagaming
 
I may use the "Anti-Lead" set in OU just because I get sick of hearing people talk about how "This Pokemon is useless in OU herp derp!"
This is going to be fun.
 
This isn't related to Smogon, but Hitmonlee is a great anti-rain pokemon as well, if you run HJK+QuakeEdge and a Jolly nature, since nothing common on a rain team will top 600 speed even with SwSw, only thing that is even remotely common being floatzel (lol). Or SwSw Luvdisc.
 
Uncommon? More like nonexistant. Funny how people believed the drizzle+swift swim ban was going to bring that playstyle back!

Hitmonlee even after an unburden boost is outsped by lilligant, leafeon, and leavanny. Sure, those guys are all uncommon, but still.
 
By the way it looks... Hitmonlee would enjoy Screens.
My question is, with Screens up, can Hitmonlee survive a non-boosted EQ from Excadrill? Because if it can, and assuming Normal Jewel Fake Out + HJK kills Excadrill...
 
82.6% - 97.5% is the amount hitmonlee takes from LO Adamant Excadrill.

Since this (far superior) build isn't used too often, 58.5% - 68.9% is the amount hitmonlee will be taking from jolly balloon excadrill. Both calcs were done factoring in reflect.

Personally, I do not see the point of using an unburden pokemon against a poke who will still outspeed you after the unburden boost regardless.
 
alphatron said:
82.6% - 97.5% is the amount hitmonlee takes from LO Adamant Excadrill.

Since this (far superior) build isn't used too often, 58.5% - 68.9% is the amount hitmonlee will be taking from jolly balloon excadrill. Both calcs were done factoring in reflect.

Personally, I do not see the point of using an unburden pokemon against a poke who will still outspeed you after the unburden boost regardless.
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Hm... that's true. If the calculations above are what he takes behind Screens, then he'd just die to Sandstorm...

Okay, so if I do decide to use Hitmonlee, I'll have to find a good counter to Excadrill. Thanks for the calcs.

Also, what would be the best speed to run for him?
 
Kenshiro said:
No, Fake Out+Normal Gem has merit as a basically guaranteed speed boost (since Gliscor, Vaporeon, Politoed, and Blissey/Chansey are the only even remotely common pokemon that run Protect on their standard sets), and Hitmonlee will never muscle through Gliscor anyway. Close Combat is inferior since he won''t have any chance at all to survive priority then, since at -1 Def Conk's unboosted Iron Fist Mach Punch 1hko's after SR, meaning that other unboosted priority at that strength level will also 1hko. Also, the extra 10 BP is actually noticeable for guaranteeing some KO's, as is shown here:

Jolly HJK vs. 4/0 Ludicolo: (89.70% - 105.65%) (guaranteed 1hko after SR)
Jolly CC: (82.72% - 97.67%) (50% chance to KO after SR)
Jolly HJK vs. 4/0 Kingdra/Serperior: (72.16% - 84.88%) (guaranteed KO after Fake Out+SR, likely KO after switching into SR twice)
Jolly CC: (67.01% - 78.69%) (almost impossible to KO after switching into SR twice)
Jolly HJK vs. 4/0 Genesect: (74.47% - 87.59%) (basically guaranteed 1hko after SR twice or SR+Spikes)
Jolly CC: (69.15% - 81.21%) (50% chance of the same 1hko)
Jolly HJK vs. 252/64 Ferrothorn: (85.80% - 101.14%) (40% 1hko chance with just SR)
Jolly CC: (78.98% - 93.75%) (impossible to 1hko with just SR)
Jolly HJK vs. 4/0 Latios: (39.87% - 47.18%) (potential 2hko with 1 hit of SR)
Jolly CC: (36.88% - 43.85%) (requires sandstorm+SR to guarantee a 2hko)
Jolly HJK vs. 4/0 Infernape: (90.44% - 106.83%) (guaranteed KO after SR)
Jolly CC: (83.96% - 98.63%) (not guaranteed)

Against things in roughly the same class of bulk as the above, HJK grants guaranteed KO power, whereas CC falls short.
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Even with HJK, you still need Rocks support for those OHKOs and 2HKOs. Unburden will not work for a sweeper set. Hitmonlee is just TOO WEAK without an item too boost his offenses. Once you do add that Life Orb or Choice Band, then all those guaranteed OHKOs after rocks with HJK become guaranteed OHKOs without rocks with Close Combat. In addition, Protect is very common on Ferrothorn, the #1 pokemon in the metagame. And if Ghost comes out on a HJK, you are screwed. And statistically, CC is better after factoring in the miss chance, unlike Fire Blast and Hydro Pump. 130 x .9 = 117.

On to Fake Out. It is still useless with Unburden. Not having a Band or Life Orb really hurts Hitmonlee's damage output, leaving its only use being a revenge killer. It will mimic the power of a Scarf set, except it can only be used a single time. Basically, a one-use revenge killer with 3 moveslots. Also known as complete garbage. Not to mention that if you are forced out (maybe by a Scizor), Hitmonlee will be useless for the remainder of the match because Unburden only works once.

Thus, the only niche use for Unburden at all would be with an attack boost for a late game sweeper using Leichi Berry. Hopefully, you can get your Leichi boost and still have a sub up, protecting you from priority. Even then, however, its still too weak to really work.

Conclusion:
Don't use Fake Out+Unburden because its outclassed
Use CC over HJK for more reliability and statistically better damage output. Not worth sacrificing to live a specific attack from a specific pokemon (Conkeldurr). Besides, Lucario and Nite's Extremespeed and Scizor's Bullet Punch still 1HKO.
 
Your arguement against hi jump kick has been heard before. Actually, it was used a lot by the anti-ban blaziken group (who used hi jump kick not only because it was strong, but because he didn't have anything better). If playing with team preview, you can see if your opponent has a ghost type. If you play against a pokemon whom you suspect may have protect, then use your prediction.

Yeah, HJK is the more risky option, but Hitmonlee is made of paper and can't afford his opponents living through his attacks anyway.
 
alphatron said:
Your arguement against hi jump kick has been heard before. Actually, it was used a lot by the anti-ban blaziken group (who used hi jump kick not only because it was strong, but because he didn't have anything better). If playing with team preview, you can see if your opponent has a ghost type. If you play against a pokemon whom you suspect may have protect, then use your prediction.

Yeah, HJK is the more risky option, but Hitmonlee is made of paper and can't afford his opponents living through his attacks anyway.
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I am NOT saying that HJK is a bad move. I acknowledge that it is a fantastic move with high power and great accuracy. What I am saying is that Close Combat is superior almost all the time. There is a reason why you never see Lucario using High Jump Kick for example. Something like 8% (I'm not sure and I'm too lazy to find out) more damage is not worth it with all the drawbacks, including 10% less accuracy.

Like I said, at least Fire Blast and Hydro Pump have better damage on average than their 95 BP counterparts.
 
Do Tyrouge's Dream World Moves include Mach Punch?(Is it even released yet?) If not, than it's illegal with Unburden. And Sucker Punch is a 4th Gen Tutor move, so that's not legal either (Tyrouge can't learn Sucker Punch, so I'm not even going to ask it it has that as a DW move)

Off Topic, it's funny how people think it's weird that Hitmonchan can't learn Sucker Punch, but Hitmonlee and Hitmontop can. This is because its Japanese name is Ambush, and thus has nothing to do with punching and doesn't give an Iron Fist boost if you hack the move onto it.
 
SupaChinChin said:
I am NOT saying that HJK is a bad move. I acknowledge that it is a fantastic move with high power and great accuracy. What I am saying is that Close Combat is superior almost all the time. There is a reason why you never see Lucario using High Jump Kick for example. Something like 8% (I'm not sure and I'm too lazy to find out) more damage is not worth it with all the drawbacks, including 10% less accuracy.

Like I said, at least Fire Blast and Hydro Pump have better damage on average than their 95 BP counterparts.
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problem with this is that he actually needs the extra 8% to actually sweep. You keep saying "he's too weak to sweep, he needs a boosting item", and I'm showing you calcs that show he actually CAN sweep without a boosting item, but that it requires hjk because close combat is just a tiiiny bit too weak to handle things.

We're not on the same page because you keep saying he needs an attack boost to sweep, whereas I'm saying that all he needs to do to clean up in the late-game is keep a switch-in to priority alive (or get the jump on their priority user by hitting them with fake out+mach punch), and that his lower speed is the bigger barrier to sweeping since he can get the 1hko's he needs without a boosting item as long as he has some entry hazard support.

Also, I haven't seen a lot of ferro using protect, since they generally like to hazard stack rather than stall for leech seed recovery, but that's a playstyle preference and isn't the most common choice. On top of that, one protect doesn't ruin his sweep.
 
Kenshiro said:
We're not on the same page because you keep saying he needs an attack boost to sweep, whereas I'm saying that all he needs to do to clean up in the late-game is keep a switch-in to priority alive (or get the jump on their priority user by hitting them with fake out+mach punch), and that his lower speed is the bigger barrier to sweeping since he can get the 1hko's he needs without a boosting item as long as he has some entry hazard support..
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You didn't get the main point, which was that he can only use Unburden a single time. This means that if you are forced out, (which ANY physical wall can do, even Vaporeon) you will NEVER regain your sweeping ability, instead being slow and weak. Its much better to use a damage boosting item for extra power OR a choice scarf, which completely outclasses Fake Out + Unburden.
 
Isn't the Fake out + normal gem + unburden supposed to work as a clean up sweeper? I mean, most stuff would be low enough at that point anyways. 120 base attack running at 600 speed is... absolutely fine for a clean up sweeper who basically sets up its speed boost for free.

I mean, if you're bringing in this Hitmonlee, you figure its going to be late in the game and youre not going to switch him out.
 
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