Hitmonlee

[Katakiri]

Bumping this up because Hitmonlee's getting no love right now. Reposting a general summary I just wrote elsewhere:

Hitmonlee @ Normal Gem
Trait: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- Hi Jump Kick
- Fake Out
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Hi Jump Kick is used over Close Combat as, outside of the chance of missing & doing nothing the whole turn, losing 50% for your HP & getting -1 Defense every attack is basically the same thing to a Pokemon like Hitmonlee. With some residual (even just Sandstorm is enough), a -1 Defense Hitmonlee will be OHKO'd by and unboosted Hitmontop Mach Punch while Hitmonlee Close Combat will fail to OHKO Hitmontop even after residual. In the same situation, Hitmontop will fail to OHKO Hitmonlee if it's using Hi Jump Kick for STAB and Hi Jump Kick will OHKO Hitmontop after residual. Now, I'm just using Hitmontop as an example, there's plenty more Pokemon like Arcanine, Entei, & Ambipom that will KO Hitmonlee at -1 Defense with little to no issue. Every time you use Close Combat, you're basically losing 25% of your HP each turn and for a Pokemon that is forced to stay in or lose it's speed boost forever, you really don't want to do that to yourself. But it is a bit preference based. It's judgement call between 90 Accuracy or making yourself weak to priority.

Fake Out should ALWAYS be used. It lets you revenge nearly ANY sweeper for free.
Don't even think of it as Fake Out, think of it as a +3 Priority Agility that flinches the opponent. Sounds a lot better doesn't it?

Earthquake lets Hitmonlee take care of Poison-types that otherwise laugh at him as he fails to KO them with Stone Edge or just flat-out missed because...Stone Edge. A Fighting-type using Earthquake. That's blasphemy here on Smogon.

Stone Edge is unfortunately neccesary as Rock Slide is just missing so many KOs since Hitmonlee can't run Life Orb.

Don't ever use Sucker Punch. Realize this: Once a Ghost-type blocks Fake Out, it's job is done. Will-O-Wisp if you have it, but otherwise just switch to your Hitmonlee counter as Lee is suck without a Speed boost until he switches out & tries again.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

sucker punch is illegal with unburden

Fake Out sucks imo. It's a one-trick pony and if the opponent protects you have to switch out and back in again to redo the strategy.

 

[BeastMode2010]

Try Fighting Gem and Mach Punch. STAB, gem boost and way more damage than Fake Out...Just saying

 

[Katakiri]

You're not going for damage. If you're staring down a Tornadus or a Scarf Darmanitan, it doesn't matter how much damage you do because you're dead before you can even use your Unburden boost.

Mach Punch is entirely useless and defeats the point of using Hitmonlee. He's an amazing revenge Pokemon as he can get a free +2 speed boost right in front of any sweeper & KO it next turn.

If you want Mach Punch, use Hitmontop. If you want one of the best revenge Pokemon in the game, use Fake Out Hitmonlee.

 

[alexwolf]

Blaze Kick is still Lee's only way of killing Venusaur,which you outspeed in the sun and also Lee's only way of ohkoing Scizor on the switch,which can survive a HKJ even after SR.

Also if you are using Lee in the sun Blaze Kick is definitely the way to go as it hits every single steel type in ou not weak to fight(read:almost every steel)for better damage than HJK.
In sun you can murder Ferro with Blaze Kick instead of having to play the little Protect game of his.
In sun you can murder every Forretress looking to ko you with Gyro Ball and so on...

I think you get the point!

Blaze Kick is definitely viablE in Unburden Lee!

 

[Xephyr]

If you want one of the best revenge Pokemon in the game, use Fake Out Hitmonlee.

...So, what you're saying is that "one of the best revenge Pokemon in the game" is a generic fighting type with mediocre speed who only really gets one chance at revenging and has to rely on a poor move to SET UP (revenge killers that need to set up? lol?) and if your opponent switches to a good counter then you're screwed and can do absolutely nothing and you've basically wasted a team slot.

Yep. Best. Ever.

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

...So, what you're saying is that "one of the best revenge Pokemon in the game" is a generic fighting type with mediocre speed who only really gets one chance at revenging and has to rely on a poor move to SET UP (revenge killers that need to set up? lol?) and if your opponent switches to a good counter then you're screwed and can do absolutely nothing and you've basically wasted a team slot.

Yep. Best. Ever.

first of all, the fact that you are stating that fake out is a bad move makes me want to disregard everything you said...but whatever.

Let me put it this way, your opponents Heatran kills your latios, so you send in landorus.

Good chance that guy is going to switch his heatran, into his whatever pokemon with ice beam.

Point is, if you judge a revenge killer souly because your opponent may switch, then the entire concept of revenge killing is pointless, because it wouldn't exist.

But it does, so hitmonlee may not be the "best" but it's far from being useless. And if you say "well it made him switch out" well, hitmonlee can do the same thing, and scaring the shit out of a pokemon enough to make them switch is referred to as a counter.

It uses fake out, gets a free turn of damage, and then uses the appropriate move. What part of that, makes him a terrible revenge killer at 400+ speed and 372 attack?

 

[Katakiri]

...So, what you're saying is that "one of the best revenge Pokemon in the game" is a generic fighting type with mediocre speed who only really gets one chance at revenging and has to rely on a poor move to SET UP (revenge killers that need to set up? lol?) and if your opponent switches to a good counter then you're screwed and can do absolutely nothing and you've basically wasted a team slot.

Yep. Best. Ever.

Ooooo~ A bit spiteful are we?

Well consider this:
Would Salamence love to get a free Dragon Dance against a +1 Dragonite? Absolutely it would!
Is it ever going to? Hell no!

Hitmonlee is one of the only revenge sweepers that is even capable to setup in the face of other sweepers for free. If your opponent's sweeper switches out because of Hitmonlee, it's done it's job. Now keep it from setting up again.

Removing the opponent's "good counter" to Hitmonlee should be no problem at all with team preview and his that fact that his counters in UU are generally weak to Pursuit or Ice Moves anyway. (Sup, Weavile?) Hi Jump Kick, EQ/Blaze Kick, & Stone Edge is pretty tough to crack in terms of coverage. And in all honesty, you'd be a fool to base your team entirely around Hitmonlee as all Hitmonlee needs to be effective in UU is Stealth Rock & for Ghosts & Bulky Ground-types to be removed. And teams should have Pokemon for that in the first place without even considering Hitmonlee.

Best. In. UU.

The OU revenge throne belongs to LO Deoxys-S, but nobody's smart enough to use that. No, we need Spikes & Screens like addicts need crack.

 

[alexwolf]

But isn't this thread supposed to talk about Lee in OU?
Since Lee has its own thread in the UU subforum...

 

[Xephyr]

Spiteful? The hell?

and lol, if you wanna talk about UU, try the UU forum. And the best revenge killer in UU is without a doubt Stoutland. What is Hitmonlee revenging in UU anyway? Raikou? I honestly don't even know what that set accomplishes. The revenge killer "setting up" idea still just makes me laugh.

 

[Missingno. Master]

I've been using a Hitmonlee on PO today, with generally good results.

Hitmonlee@Normal Gem
Adamant nature
Unburden
252 Atk/252 Spd/4 HP
~Fake Out
~Hi Jump Kick
~Stone Edge
~Earthquake

Besides the usual Stone Miss issues, it did pretty damn well.

 

[tehy]

Excuse me, but to all the "Best revenge killer ever" people, i have to point out the obvious flaw in your plan:

Choice scarfs aren't single-use. Granted, it becomes harder to get in after the first time, but the fact remains that, arguably, i could use a choice scarfer infinitely. Even with hazards support, things like terrakion and landorus will take a while to kill off by indirect damage alone. The reason that hitmonlee is a lame revenge-killer is that it can only do so once, and therefore has to either sweep an entire team(With a medium-good attack and a speed that gets beaten by many scarfer, not to mention a massively exploitable primary STAB move), or become totally useless.

And by the by, zephyr, a revenge-killer that relies on weather is almost as bad as hitmonlee, as it requires you to carry that weather and keep it up-good luck switching hippowdon into abomasnow, a pokemon that has 2 STAB moves SE against it.

 

[Kindrindra]

Spiteful? The hell?

and lol, if you wanna talk about UU, try the UU forum. And the best revenge killer in UU is without a doubt Stoutland. What is Hitmonlee revenging in UU anyway? Raikou? I honestly don't even know what that set accomplishes. The revenge killer "setting up" idea still just makes me laugh.

I think what you're missing is that you don't need to 'set-up', per se. Fake Out forces your opponent to flinch, so unless your opponent has a Steadfast or Inner Focus pokemon, you can disregard the entire first turn. Your opponent switched? Doesn't matter, unless it was to a ghost-type. You still just got your free +2 without having to do anything.

 

[Xephyr]

I think what you're missing is that you don't need to 'set-up', per se. Fake Out forces your opponent to flinch, so unless your opponent has a Steadfast or Inner Focus pokemon, you can disregard the entire first turn. Your opponent switched? Doesn't matter, unless it was to a ghost-type. You still just got your free +2 without having to do anything.

And then you never get to do it again. Your opponent then realizes that this Hitmonlee is absurdly easy to counter as they switch to something, and now Hitmonlee can no longer revenge kill. Your opponent gets their sweeper set up again and now what is Hitmonlee going to do?

 

[NoUserName]

I completly agree with Katakiri.

Of course this pokemon has a lot of faults, but is not useless by any means, can't you see how fearsome a pokemon is which can outspeed all metagame?

So, this pokemon is useful against Hyper Offensive, lategamer or hazard support.

And if it is not required in X situation obtain the Unburden boost, don't use Fake Out yet, and keep it until the most needed situation.

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

And then you never get to do it again. Your opponent then realizes that this Hitmonlee is absurdly easy to counter as they switch to something, and now Hitmonlee can no longer revenge kill. Your opponent gets their sweeper set up again and now what is Hitmonlee going to do?

Are you...retarded?

Fighting/Rock covers a lot of weaknesses, and is known for having good neutral coverage, add blaze kick and you get even more.

Their salamence DD's? Fake out! then kill it with stone Edge!

Multiscale DD dragonite at full health? Fake out! Murder with stone edge!


Choice band terrakion ruining your day? If you haven't already, use fake out! Or if you have, use your 130 based power stabbed super effective move on his ass!


Even if their stat upper switches out, well now they don't have their boosts at the very least, and they are siginificantly less threatening.


Simply put, anyone who says he's the best revenge killer ever is wrong, anyone who says he is useless (aka you) as one, should lurk more.

I have both provided context, and situations in which he can be effectively used, many others have attested to him being at least useful, if not an MVP

 

[Xephyr]

it's funny when people with 101 posts that joined this site 10 months ago tell me to lurk more. lol?

The problem with all of those situations, is that you use fake out...then your opponent just switches to a counter and you just wasted your fake out and you can never revenge anything again and you'll just get killed. What makes a real revenge killer a good revenge killer is the fact that it can revenge many things throughout the entire battle. Hitmonlee gets one chance and isn't even very good at it.

and lol "many others have attested to him being useful." Until I see someone that's actually an established battler comment on his usefulness against other good players, maybe I'll be convinced that he can be useful. Go climb to the top of the ladder and try your Hitmonlee out there.

 

[waterwarrior]

So, this pokemon is useful against Hyper Offensive

And if it is not required in X situation obtain the Unburden boost, don't use Fake Out yet, and keep it until the most needed situation.

HO? You mean that playstyle where priority abusers and pokes constantly boosting their Speed come to party? Sure, why not.

Also, if you're revenging anything, you have to be faster or hit it with strong priority (base 40 BP unSTAB move? Woooooow!), so you will need to lose the Normal Gem, so it's kind of a moot point.

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

it's funny when people with 101 posts that joined this site 10 months ago tell me to lurk more. lol?

The problem with all of those situations, is that you use fake out...then your opponent just switches to a counter and you just wasted your fake out and you can never revenge anything again and you'll just get killed. What makes a real revenge killer a good revenge killer is the fact that it can revenge many things throughout the entire battle. Hitmonlee gets one chance and isn't even very good at it.

and lol "many others have attested to him being useful." Until I see someone that's actually an established battler comment on his usefulness against other good players, maybe I'll be convinced that he can be useful. Go climb to the top of the ladder and try your Hitmonlee out there.

The lurk more meant "shut the fuck up, and concentrate on the pokemon, or fuck off" but in a nicer way.

I could care less about how many posts you/I have, and I could care less about your status. Why don't you concentrate on what I said about hitmonlee, and not you acting butt hurt?


Seriously, try "acting" like the "amazing" and "all knowing" battler you are, and try to add something more useful then "lolz he sucks"

If it's a 20 page essay on how much he sucks and every single reason why, that's what we want to hear, but the whole point is to debate his uses, if any, not "lulz he sucks here is one reason why"

Maybe, during your time here, you've forgotten this is all a debate?

HO? You mean that playstyle where priority abusers and pokes constantly boosting their Speed come to party? Sure, why not.

Also, if you're revenging anything, you have to be faster or hit it with strong priority (base 40 BP unSTAB move? Woooooow!), so you will need to lose the Normal Gem, so it's kind of a moot point.

Which is a valid point, what if were trying to revenge kill a chlorophyll user like venasaur?

You wouldn't want to fake out first, you'd want to blaze kick, but without using fake out he wouldn't be faster. Maybe a focus sash potentially? Blaze kick would murder vena in the sun if you were using a jolly nature to make sure you out sped.

But at that point you're assuming no entry hazards (he's weak to all of them) or previous damage, because if he gets hit and somehow survives then he's stuck with a focus sash that he can't get rid of unless he gets a wish pass. Because you would need that focus sash to activate to get rid of it, and be able to out speed him when you take that +2 earthquake or whatever.

so fake out, blaze kick would be your only real opition.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

If you want a nice way to get some speed boosts, why not use a white herb? Close Combat 1 turn, get your defenses back up and a free x2 speed. What could go wrong?

EDIT: you could also use something like a shell bell, I'm not sure if unburden activates if a shell bell is used though...

 

[tehy]

Look, any revenge killer that can only do it once has massive problems. And what can he do, in terms of revenging, that some scarfed fighting-type like primeape can't?

 

[MMX]

If you want a nice way to get some speed boosts, why not use a white herb? Close Combat 1 turn, get your defenses back up and a free x2 speed. What could go wrong?

EDIT: you could also use something like a shell bell, I'm not sure if unburden activates if a shell bell is used though...

Shell Bell doesn't work as it's a hold item. It activates when the holder deals damage.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Shell Bell doesn't work as it's a hold item. It activates when the holder deals damage.

Great, my mistake.

Point is, there are a huge amount of great items to use on this guy, and we are forgetting about a lot of them.

 

[NoUserName]

HO? You mean that playstyle where priority abusers and pokes constantly boosting their Speed come to party? Sure, why not.

Also, if you're revenging anything, you have to be faster or hit it with strong priority (base 40 BP unSTAB move? Woooooow!), so you will need to lose the Normal Gem, so it's kind of a moot point.

What priority? There are only commonly seen in OU Bullet Punch from Scizor and Mach Punch from Conkeldurr, easy predictable.

I know Fake Out and Normal Gem suck by themselves, but not taking into account an assured doubled speed by no drawbacks, bar carrying no item and losing a moveslot.

 

[waterwarrior]

What priority? There are only commonly seen in OU Bullet Punch from Scizor and Mach Punch from Conkeldurr, easy predictable.

-Dragonite's ExtremeSpeed
-Lucario's ExtremeSpeed (and the fact that he's immune to flinching)
-Deoxys-S's ExtremeSpeed (not as common, but not rare at the same time)
-While Gengar isn't a priority abuser, you can't use Fake Out on it, so you're going to lose against it
-BandApe's Mach Punch
-Metagross's Bullet Punch
-Mienshao's opposing Fake Out
-Terrakion, like Gengar, can outspeed you if it gets an RP off (which isn't hard at all)
-Toxicroak's Sucker Punch
-Reuniclus laughs at your speed if its a TR variant
-The fact that many other pokes can get to +2 Speed