Metagame Hot Potato

Alright, neat post, TDA, if you’re gonna let anyone in the council you have my vote for this dude who’s name I can’t spell.

Onto the discussiion of banning stuff, well, I’m not really sure. As I mentioned 2 posts ago, Victini is horribly hard to switch into, the closest thing to a check I can think of is Heatran which has litttle or no viability apart from checking Victini. Even then, Victini can always use trick on Stealth Rock, and slowly wear down. It can 2KO every switch with the defense passing, you have to sack to get rid of it, or else use priority / faster scarf. This thing is absolutely insane. While it’s insane, I do not think that it merits a ban. GOTTEM. V-Create is what makes it broken, so ban V-Create.

On the subject of Serperior, I’m just like, what type of loser would resort to this? Messing with evasion is the only reason I don’t become a full on Anything Goes player man. Still, a Defog ban is trash, because everyone hates hazards and this would certainly increase its usage. Still, SERP is not broken. Defog is what makes this unhealthy. With no way to avoid this combo except to ban serperior, I think don’t ban, because the foe can actually benefit if they don’t attack. On the other hand, one of the most common tactics is stat-lowering moves, and it can swithc into one of these and benefit. Therefore, my opinion is #BanSerp as it truly messes up one of the most common/ best strats in the meta. Or, ban contrary, as this is the only reason it is broken.

Give batterbotto Monsareeasy's teams

I’m really enjoying the meta TDA! Great idea!
I agree with the contrary ban instead of Serperior outright
 
If people want more teams on BatterBotto feel free to go on DH and ask me to add them.

I haven't actually played this meta but Victini becoming faster and more powerful after a 180 bp STAB move does not seem healthy.
 
Alright, neat post, TDA, if you’re gonna let anyone in the council you have my vote for this dude who’s name I can’t spell.

Onto the discussiion of banning stuff, well, I’m not really sure. As I mentioned 2 posts ago, Victini is horribly hard to switch into, the closest thing to a check I can think of is Heatran which has litttle or no viability apart from checking Victini. Even then, Victini can always use trick on Stealth Rock, and slowly wear down. It can 2KO every switch with the defense passing, you have to sack to get rid of it, or else use priority / faster scarf. This thing is absolutely insane. While it’s insane, I do not think that it merits a ban. GOTTEM. V-Create is what makes it broken, so ban V-Create.

On the subject of Serperior, I’m just like, what type of loser would resort to this? Messing with evasion is the only reason I don’t become a full on Anything Goes player man. Still, a Defog ban is trash, because everyone hates hazards and this would certainly increase its usage. Still, SERP is not broken. Defog is what makes this unhealthy. With no way to avoid this combo except to ban serperior, I think don’t ban, because the foe can actually benefit if they don’t attack. On the other hand, one of the most common tactics is stat-lowering moves, and it can swithc into one of these and benefit. Therefore, my opinion is #BanSerp as it truly messes up one of the most common/ best strats in the meta. Or, ban contrary, as this is the only reason it is broken.

Give batterbotto Monsareeasy's teams

I’m really enjoying the meta TDA! Great idea!
Banning V-create sounds better way to do it same overall goal make victini not unhealthy I prefer this approach although.

I really in practice have no problem with serp it a over centralizing but imo no where close to ban worthy. for my full thoughts on serp i posted something on page 3 going more in-depth about this stuff if you have not seen it.

More of an edit on serp/contrary, banning contrary also restricts the metagame from being as fun. If we ban anything maybe sweet scent because all its good for is evasion. I refuse to remove defog and 2bh i don't even think banning sweet scent is needed

YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME MONS(ABR. FOR POKEMON ARE (CONNECTS STUFF) EASY (TRYHARDWORD) copy and paste also works thankyou lol.
lol
 
Victini honestly looks terrifying. I can see why it get banned. I don’t really have argument for that.

But Serp? Tbh if anything, it’s a necessary check to the meta full of stats lowering moves so if anything I’m into DNB route. Like in Fortemons. Priority is everywhere (before the ban), but one single mon (Lele) shuts them down completely. Does that makes Lele broken? No. This is the same case. Serp is necessary to prevent the meta from getting spammed by stats lowering moves.
 
~~say it right or dont say it~~ lol
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6619
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6620
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6621
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6623
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6624
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6625
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6626
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6627
Can we pls give the bots more teams. The team it currently has does not represent the meta. It has no diversity of teams to chose so memorizing the team becomes easy. Maybe give it samples? Also I beat the bot every game so far when half asleep. This not the fault of the person who coded the bot, It is a bot and cant think as far as we can, the bot also makes really odd predicts sometimes which dont represent plays a human would make. This is just more of a reason to do mini-tours like 8 people join and then its like an official smogon tournament, but very low in people.

I would also like to mention that I am working on a stall team to see how stall would fair, through practice, not assumptions. So far I just have the idea. If someone who like to build it with me that would be cool. Maybe we could make the stall team a sample also.

I'm really enjoying this more than I thought I would, so good job The Dark Alakazam(TDA).

My thoughts on Victini and Serperior possibly being suspected and/or Banned.
This has been brought up a little; I feel like talking about it. I first would like to address what makes them good and how can you beat them. I will start with Victini. This pokemon has the ability to spam V-create. This lets this thing go for a V-create and if your opponent would die if staying in, they have two options(lose the Pokemon or Switch). In the event of switching, they must switch into a 180 base power stab move that does good damage then lowers YOUR defense and speed making this hard to beat. Mixed and special sets can throw your opponent off. LO lets it switch moves and still abuse its coverage. For example V-Create into Bolt Strike can kill most water types. You can U-Turn out of checks. You can also learn Brick Break which screw Heatran and Tyranatar Over. Choice Scarf and Band are insane and LO is also super insane. I've found way to beat Victini, but literally most of the time Brick Break would mean a big loss. Oh just go mega latias latios or anything like that. Well V-Create Hurts Hard. Victini Kills with V-Create Into U-turn. You can U-Turn INto T-Tar and trap them. Victini can also even beat those Pokemon you would think are counters Like the Latis by itself. Altaria-M, there goes ur mega. Also Alot of Victini sets beat Altaria on the Switchin.This pokemon always finds a way to get a kill For example you can't Just bring scarf tar in on it so you sack something then kill it. Eject button is ok Vs victini but still has flaws against it. This thing is super insane. Would don't even mind a Quick ban.Not to mention you can lower there stats then switch into a contrary pokemon and get +1spe/+1spd/+1def. IMO so far #BanVictni. Now for serperior. It has cool Evasion Boosting Stuff, but it does lack effective glaring. It,s main stab is only 8 pp. To run sub you give up the ability to hit alot. Without sub its harder to rely on missing. Pokemon like toxapex haze away stat boosts. To get evasion you need your opponent to attack you. Tornadus-T and Crobat which are viable are great mons to beat it. Even if it gets a sub up crobat can deal with it and torn can get in off a u-turn from a pokemon then kill the evasion boosted serperior. Ive also found it hard to set up. Not to mention its main counters are really good besides just beating serperior. It has many more answers than Ive said so far. It is also easy to scout the coverage vs serp. I'm so far #DoNotBanSerp.
OK, my two cents on this post. First, you do realise that the team used (the one with the Zoroark and Hydregion) is actually a sample OU team from the past. I've seen Abyssal Bot from Random Other Metagames use that team when you challenge him to an OU battle. As for how to fix that, I'll say we have to wait for now as there aren't that many teams built and tested for this meta (other than the teams you have posted) as this meta is relatively new and undeveloped. All the sets and even teams done up at this point is only based on theorymoning so far. Still, if you'll wish for

As for banning, I'll say Victini or V-Create needs to be banned. The defense and speed drop being pushed to your opponent makes the move a low-risk, high-reward move, sharply reducing the number of counters this monster has. Still, I'm leaning towards a V-Create ban instead of a Victini ban, as Victini's versatility still stands, even if V-Create was banned, it would still be viable with Z-Celebrate or LO special sets. Hence, to simply ban victini would be a waste.

On banning Serperior, I'm pretty iffy. It should also be noted that Serperior can not only run 3 attacks + defog, but it also gets sub-seed, and synthesis. However, evasion-boosting serperior is rarely a new sight, while it is rare, you do see gutsy players switching in serperior into defog in standard OU ever since XY. Hence, I'm on the fence for this pokemon as even with the prospect of evasion-boosted Serperior, it still isn't considered too dangerous to be banned from OU. Solo Grass also isn't the best defensive typing in OU, and many expected coverage options can help other pokemon hit grass-types for super-effective damage (HP Ice and the likes). Hence, with careful playing, one could stop serperior before, and sometimes even after it sets up. However, with the rng behind evasion, I stand on the fence for a Serperior ban. Again, maybe wait for the metagame to fully flesh out first before banning it.
 
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Banning V-create sounds better way to do it same overall goal make victini not unhealthy I prefer this approach although.

I really in practice have no problem with serp it a over centralizing but imo no where close to ban worthy. for my full thoughts on serp i posted something on page 3 going more in-depth about this stuff if you have not seen it.

More of an edit on serp/contrary, banning contrary also restricts the metagame from being as fun. If we ban anything maybe sweet scent because all its good for is evasion. I refuse to remove defog and 2bh i don't even think banning sweet scent is needed

YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME MONS(ABR. FOR POKEMON ARE (CONNECTS STUFF) EASY (TRYHARDWORD) copy and paste also works thankyou lol.
lol
I hate having really short posts, but what the heck? ‘banning contrary also restricts the metagame from being as fun’. Messing with evasion and accuracy is NOT fun, and is very unhealthy for the metagame. I never suggested a Defog / sweet scent ban I suggested a contrary ban, to stop those being abused as they are. Messing with evasion is unhealthy and there’s a reason moves like Minimize and Double Team are banned from non-Anything Goes metas.
 
I hate having really short posts, but what the heck? ‘banning contrary also restricts the metagame from being as fun’. Messing with evasion and accuracy is NOT fun, and is very unhealthy for the metagame. I never suggested a Defog / sweet scent ban I suggested a contrary ban, to stop those being abused as they are. Messing with evasion is unhealthy and there’s a reason moves like Minimize and Double Team are banned from non-Anything Goes metas.
Serp is not broken even with evasion and a sub 2bh it's only above average not broken.I've played ou and given serp an evasion and won. Tons of good stuff beat it also it's so hard to set up evasion. You can easily hit serp too hard. Correct me if i'm wrong but if serp subs it can not receive the evasion which means you can switch into something and force it out. Even if it does not work that way there is a ton that deals with it. It may be an unpopular opinion but serp is not broken. I want to hear TDA's thoughts on serp and victini. Really though in play its super hard to set up evasion. and evasion is possible to deal with.

example of dealing with serp

serp vs hippowdon.

sweet scent on the switch to tornadus

serp switches
 
Serp is not broken even with evasion and a sub 2bh it's only above average not broken.I've played ou and given serp an evasion and won. Tons of good stuff beat it also it's so hard to set up evasion. You can easily hit serp too hard. Correct me if i'm wrong but if serp subs it can not receive the evasion which means you can switch into something and force it out. Even if it does not work that way there is a ton that deals with it. It may be an unpopular opinion but serp is not broken. I want to hear TDA's thoughts on serp and victini. Really though in play its super hard to set up evasion. and evasion is possible to deal with.

example of dealing with serp

serp vs hippowdon.

sweet scent on the switch to tornadus

serp switches
A few questions / points. Evasion is possible to deal with. I never said it is broken. I’m just gonna spell this out:

S-E-R-P I-S N-O-T B-R-O-K-E-N. It is unhealthy. Messing with evasion is unhealthy because it relies on hax, which no metagame should allow to determine the victor, also the reason why 1v1 wanted to ban sleep at one point. Contrary messes up the most common tactic completely, and abuses evasion at the same time. This is why I think it is unhealthy, not broken.
 
Now that I think of it, ZoroWarrior is completely right. Without evasion boosts, Serperior is completely fine. With evasion boosts, it becomes unhealthy and can hax its way to the win.

Also, the difference between Unhealthy and Broken.
A Pokemon that is overall better than it's competition (Like Gen 1 Mewtwo) is broken. An example of something unhealthy would be a move that has a 50% chance to instantly kill every member of the opponents team and a 50% chance to backfire and do the same thing to yours. This example isn't broken (A coin flip is fair, right?), it's just unhealthy
 
Now that I think of it, ZoroWarrior is completely right. Without evasion boosts, Serperior is completely fine. With evasion boosts, it becomes unhealthy and can hax its way to the win.

Also, the difference between Unhealthy and Broken.
A Pokemon that is overall better than it's competition (Like Gen 1 Mewtwo) is broken. An example of something unhealthy would be a move that has a 50% chance to instantly kill every member of the opponents team and a 50% chance to backfire and do the same thing to yours. This example isn't broken (A coin flip is fair, right?), it's just unhealthy
Thank you so freaking much. You said the words I struggled to get out of my mouth. Your opinion is unclear however, do you wish for a SERP ban or a contrary ban or no ban at all?
 
2bf if all of you disagree that contrary is unhealthy ban it assuming tda takes opinions which I think tda will soon. I just have never seen serp actually ever get an evasion boost because getting an evasion boost in practice is hard. all ive seen serp do is apply pressure which many pokemon do.Banning it is not the end of the world i see your point although not needed imo it is not like we are removing a Pokemon that helps the meta like landot(if landot was banned ou would be unhealthy for those people who are like BAN LANDOT OMG SO BROKEN)

edit contrary ban>serp
 
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2bf if all of you disagree that contrary is unhealthy ban it assuming tda takes opinions which I think tda will soon. I just have never seen serp actually ever get an evasion boost because getting an evasion boost in practice is hard. all ive seen serp do is apply pressure which many pokemon do.Banning it is not the end of the world i see your point although not needed imo it is not like we are removing a Pokemon that helps the meta like landot(if landot was banned ou would be unhealthy for those people who are like BAN LANDOT OMG SO BROKEN)
Or you know, we can ban Contrary and a move that reduces evasion because that's technically breaking the evasion clause. It's technically a complex ban but it's there to enforce an existing rule.
 
Or you know, we can ban Contrary and a move that reduces evasion because that's technically breaking the evasion clause. It's technically a complex ban but it's there to enforce an existing rule.
How is it a complex ban, it's just banning an ability like MnM banned shadow tag. The evasion clause is there for a reason but this meta has found a way to bypass it, so we should ban contrary.
 

TDA

corrupt auth xd
is a Pre-Contributor
I want to hear TDA's thoughts on serp and victini.
Victini: After playing against Victini and using a Victini of my own, Victini will be banned from Hot Potato. It can essentially spam V-Create with no penalty, which has proven to be far more effective than I initially thought. Switching in on this powerhouse is a nightmare, basically either forcing you to sack a Pokemon in order to make sure it actually becomes vulnerable, or give your Pokemon -1 in both defenses and speed, basically guaranteeing they die the next turn. Even if it does keep its V-Create stat debuffs, it can just switch out and come back in when the time is right once more. This, coupled with the impossibility of permanent stage hazards, gives Victini essentially a free switch in after any teammate faints and makes counterplay ridiculous or downright impossible, with only soft checks like Choice Band Pursuit Tyranitar (after a Pokemon has already fainted) and Heatran deterring its path.

Also, for those who suggested banning V-Create as the solution, I would like to keep move banning to an absolute minimum. This is the precedent set by Smogon; ban a Pokemon first before banning a move/ability/strategy/whatever. Getting into the habit of banning a move to save a Pokemon is a quick way to make a metagame with convoluted and extremely case specific bans. It's why Blaziken is banned instead of just Speed Boost Blaziken, or why we don't just ban Spectral Thief to save Marshadow. The only time a move/strategy has been banned instead of the user of said strategy was when it became abundantly clear that the sole presence of that created a broken Pokemon. Baton Pass was banned because of how broken it was to string along Baton Passed stat buffs no matter who was using BP, and how effective the strategy was. Arena Trap/Shadow Tag is banned because if you give a Pokemon that ability, that ability alone skyrockets its usability, turning a questionable mon like Dugtrio into verifiably broken.

Perish Song is banned because, in conjunction with moves like Protect or Substitute, any user of Perish Song can beat any Pokemon, and the opponent can do almost nothing to stop it. Recharge Moves are banned because any Pokemon can use a recharge move, pass the state of recharge onto their opponent, and autowin from there.

V-Create, by itself, doesn't create a broken Pokemon (or, at least, there's no way to legally prove that besides Smeargle), so it doesn't make sense by those standards to ban V-Create.

Serperior and Contrary:

I am not passing judgment for or against any of these at the current moment.

I will refer to the precedents set through the actions of Smogon concerning Z-Detect. This is an essentially free evasion boosting strategy that has relatively recently been unbanned. This is one of the exceptionally rare ways you can legitimately increase your evasion in competitive Pokemon. The reason it is allowed is essentially because the opportunity cost of running such a set was deemed too high for the reward given.

I will also refer to another strategy I have witnessed that is currently legal in Smogon Doubles. In Doubles, a relatively common low ladder strats will involve something to the effect of using Shedinja to use Mimic on an Entrainment mon so you can pass Wonder Guard onto Pokemon like Air Balloon Electivire in order to autowin. The reason this strategy is legal, even though the end result is potentially an autowin through Wonder Guard, is because not only is this strategy easy to disrupt by people who recognize what it is, but it is also easy to shut down once it has been enacted, through options like phasing, status effects, etc.

The reason both these strategies are not removed, even though they take advantage of mechanics that could be perceived as broken, unfair, or uncompetitive, is because in practice they are hard as hell to make work or pull off, and are only really effective against people inexperienced with the strategy and/or the metagame.

How does this relate to Serperior and boosting evasion through Contrary? First off, I have yet to see this done in practice, and not just talked about in theory. If the Serperior evasion boosting strategy is so relevant and effective, where is a replay showing that it works? There's nothing posted here, nor have I seen someone mention seeing that strategy in action.

If this was something that was clearly and indefensibly broken, like autowin or OHKO strategies, that would be different, but something having the potential to be unhealthy (different from broken, as we have established) needs more evidence before it should be banned.

Secondly, and more importantly, this strategy would be easily recognizable, and easy to stop. I know everyone is caught up in the hype of legal evasion, but think about this step by step. Serperior needs to set up the evasion decrease on their opponent, and then needs to get hit by their opponent to make this work. This may be also be theory on my part, but do you know hard that would be to pull off in high level play? It's different from spamming Sand Attack turn one and hoping they start missing early on; you're giving your opponent a free hit when you try and pull off this strategy.. That doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

But what I just said also hasn't really been tried out, either. I've only seen that once with Monsareeasy, when I tried to see how easy it would be for Serperior to take advantage of this strategy. In trying to create a scenario that would allow Serperior to boost its evasion, he could not find an optimal time to set up Defog/Sweet Scent with Serperior, especially when I knew what he was running. The whole point of what I am saying is that people are worried about something they've never seen work yet. And for that, I am not going to decide as of right now.

Btw, for those who wanted Sweet Scent/Defog banned (which included me at one point rofl), thats going to be a no go as well. These moves by themselves do not break a Pokemon, only potentially when in conjunction with Contrary, and as such will currently probably never be banned.

If either Serperior or Contrary where to be banned in the future, there just needs to be more actual, nontheoretical evidence. If tomorrow I see multiple replays of legitimate battles where people fought with Sweet Scent Serperior and created an unhealthy environment that their opponent had very little power in stopping, then this will be looked in to further.



On a separate note, congratulations Monsareeasy for making Tier Council! As a councilmember, from this point onward you will be involved in discussions and battles concerning what should or should not be allowed in the tier, basically. Tiering right now isn't going to consist of proper public suspects (which I would absolutely love to include), as we have literally just started existing, more just testing out and quickbanning or allowing certain Pokemon for a 'base' Hot Potato metagame.

And speaking of, I have decided to, for the time being, unban Aegislash in the Hot Potato metagame. From what has been theorized, it could be not as broken as it is in Ou, as passing the Attack Drops caused by King's Shield not only removes the negative effects of King's Shield but also shuts down any physical sets Aegislash could run. However, the only way to know for sure will be to actually use it in the metagame itself. I'm not sure when this will be implemented.

Sorry for the relatively late response, been a bit busy with stuff going on in life. Thank you to everyone who spent time discussing this metagame, it makes me genuinely excited and happy to see such enthusiasm so early on!
 
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Hello Everyone!! Happy Thanksgiving if you celebrate it.
I will be starting up a new thing called: POKEMON OF THE DAY
Q:What will happen in these?A: I will go over a Pokemon that is unexplored, but I feel could be good or A Pokemon that is insane in this metagame!!
Mega Pinsir.jpg

The first pokemon of the day is MEGA-PINSIR!!!!!

What makes this pokemon great? Well In this metagame many things are great for it.

Generally in OU it has so much to worry about but is still an insane threat. For example, Stealth Rocks. In Hot Potato Stealth Rocks are less common. This means that less teams have stealth rocks. If a team does have stealth rocks you can pass them. You can also use something like Serperior if you want to; this allows defog and pressure to be applied on one turn. With not so common and easy to deal with hazards Mega Pinsir becomes a beast. It is able to set up a Swords Dance at 100% and force a switch on alot of pokemon. This Pokemon's Speed Defenses and Attack stat are supreme.In hot potato less intimidate is spammed also. Go try M-Pinsir if you are looking for a great overall mon and offensive threat.

Good Partners

Aegislash
Great for luring in EQs and gives a free Switch. Resists Ice and Rock.

Serperior
One of the few pokemon that get defog and apply pressure with defog.

Rock, Fire, Electric, and Ice walls.
Allows Pinsir to Switch out safely.

These are only a few of the great Pokemon that pair well with M-Pinsir.

Sets
Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature or Adamant
- Swords Dance
- Quick Attack/Close Combat
- Earthquake/Close Combat
- Return/Frustration
This is a standard swords dance set. EQ is preferred over Close Combat Because of the lack of skarmory and Celesteela seen so far. Also with the Aegislash unban EQ gives a reliable way to beat Aegislash. Quick Attack for faster pokemon. Return and frustration are your hardest hitting attacks. The one you chose can change whether certain ditto can beat you or not. Adamant and Jolly are just as recommend. The both do important things. Jolly helps you outspeed a lot of pokemon while Adamant hits slower pokemon harder and faster pokemon harder with quick attack.

(For this set I am giving some credit to TDA )
Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe or EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD or EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe or In depth Ev spread your team needs
Jolly Nature / Adamant / What you want
- Rest
- Curse
- Sleep Talk
- Return/Frustration/Quick Attack
This is very unexplored but I want to bring it up! The set is meant to pass low speed and sleep. This set is very set to what you want. The only big thing I want to say is quick attack is not of the highest recommendation. This is because of Tapu Lele and it can't be an immediate threat with quick attack.

A team!!!! https://hastebin.com/bigizepage.diff . This is a newer team I built. It is still is decent, but feel free to change stuff.

TDA I want your opinion on making this a real daily thing. You are not currently on so I cant ask you rn and do not want to wait. My only concern is how much space It takes up
 
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Hello Everyone!! Happy Thanksgiving if you celebrate it.
I will be starting up a new thing called: POKEMON OF THE DAY
Q:What will happen in these?A: I will go over a Pokemon that is unexplored, but I feel could be good or A Pokemon that is insane in this metagame!!
View attachment 147003
The first pokemon of the day is MEGA-PINSIR!!!!!

What makes this pokemon great? Well In this metagame many things are great for it.

Generally in OU it has so much to worry about but is still an insane threat. For example, Stealth Rocks. In Hot Potato Stealth Rocks are less common. This means that less teams have stealth rocks. If a team does have stealth rocks you can pass them. You can also use something like Serperior if you want to; this allows defog and pressure to be applied on one turn. With not so common and easy to deal with hazards Mega Pinsir becomes a beast. It is able to set up a Swords Dance at 100% and force a switch on alot of pokemon. This Pokemon's Speed Defenses and Attack stat are supreme.In hot potato less intimidate is spammed also. Go try M-Pinsir if you are looking for a great overall mon and offensive threat.

Good Partners

Aegislash
Great for luring in EQs and gives a free Switch. Resists Ice and Rock.

Serperior
One of the few pokemon that get defog and apply pressure with defog.

Rock, Fire, Electric, and Ice walls.
Allows Pinsir to Switch out safely.

These are only a few of the great Pokemon that pair well with M-Pinsir.

Sets
Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature or Adamant
- Swords Dance
- Quick Attack
- Earthquake/Close Combat
- Return/Frustration
This is a standard swords dance set. EQ is preferred over Close Combat Because of the lack of skarmory and Celesteela seen so far. Also with the Aegislash unban EQ gives a reliable way to beat Aegislash. Quick Attack for faster pokemon. Return and frustration are your hardest hitting attacks. The one you chose can change whether certain ditto can beat you or not. Adamant and Jolly are just as recommend. The both do important things. Jolly helps you outspeed a lot of pokemon while Adamant hits slower pokemon harder and faster pokemon harder with quick attack.

(For this set I am giving some credit to TDA )
Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe or EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD or EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe or In depth Ev spread your team needs
Jolly Nature / Adamant / What you want
- Rest
- Curse
- Sleep Talk
- Return/Frustration/Quick Attack
This is very unexplored but I want to bring it up! The set is meant to pass low speed and sleep. This set is very set to what you want. The only big thing I want to say is quick attack is not of the highest recommendation. This is because of Tapu Lele.

A team!!!! https://hastebin.com/bigizepage.diff . This is a newer team I built. It is still is decent, but feel free to change stuff.

TDA I want your opinion on making this a real daily thing. You are not currently on so I cant ask you rn and do not want to wait. My only concern is how much space It takes up
OK, this is a great idea! Notice how I didn't actually say your name to not draw attention to it. I like the theory, but I feel like this metagame is realy new and we should only do this with mons that can abuse the metagame properly. Pinsir-mega can't really do this, as close combat is this only thing that can, sort of. The RestTalk set seems interesting but heavily unreliable, as it needs to get the 1/3 chance of the attacking move to pass sleep (Talk), and curse is the only good thing about the set. Great idea, but doing it with stuff like Flame Orb guts Pinsir would probably be better as this meta is very unexplored and should be used with obvious sets first.

Anyway, now for the niche of the day. A thing about uncommon mon which I think has yet to be explored, to help the meta along with being explored. An unofficial thing which I'm going to do anyway.

Dragonite @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Superpower
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

I think this set, while may be obvious, is a lot better than everyone thought it might be. Superpower, this obvious stat-lowering abuser, sets up for a Dragon Dance sweep, especially with the boosts from weakness policy. The only thing I regret about it is that DDance boosts its speed, and so if they attack, they pass the stat lowerings right back at you.

It's very brief description, I could have said a lot more, but it's not meant to be long.

So what do you all think? Viable? Unviable? Could the set be improved? (I didn't make the set perfect for a reason to spark discussion.)
 
OK, this is a great idea! Notice how I didn't actually say your name to not draw attention to it. I like the theory, but I feel like this metagame is realy new and we should only do this with mons that can abuse the metagame properly. Pinsir-mega can't really do this, as close combat is this only thing that can, sort of. The RestTalk set seems interesting but heavily unreliable, as it needs to get the 1/3 chance of the attacking move to pass sleep (Talk), and curse is the only good thing about the set. Great idea, but doing it with stuff like Flame Orb guts Pinsir would probably be better as this meta is very unexplored and should be used with obvious sets first.

Anyway, now for the niche of the day. A thing about uncommon mon which I think has yet to be explored, to help the meta along with being explored. An unofficial thing which I'm going to do anyway.

Dragonite @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Superpower
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

I think this set, while may be obvious, is a lot better than everyone thought it might be. Superpower, this obvious stat-lowering abuser, sets up for a Dragon Dance sweep, especially with the boosts from weakness policy. The only thing I regret about it is that DDance boosts its speed, and so if they attack, they pass the stat lowerings right back at you.

It's very brief description, I could have said a lot more, but it's not meant to be long.

So what do you all think? Viable? Unviable? Could the set be improved? (I didn't make the set perfect for a reason to spark discussion.)
Pinsir abuses no rocks thats what. and that is a big enough change to be good. I've used it a little imo it's insanely good. The only reason mpinsir in ou is not top 3 mega is sr. This meta is good for removing rocks. and I don't even see rocks.alot. the set seems cool lowering stats into multiscale then you get +2
 

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