I think we've kind of stumbled upon a much more discussable issue here rather than the atheism/agnosticism vs. theology debate that always seems to crop up and never really go anywhere...
Snipping a bit to highlight what I want to reference
I think the thesis I want to pull from this(and hopefully discuss) is "regardless of whether or not God is real, is the world better off because of religion?"
I'm kind of torn on this. I was born into a very religious family, but even as a kid I don't think I ever really bought in. I spent most of my life believing in kind of the idea that you got at originally there - that regardless of why people were doing it, religion probably made people behave better. If people weren't motivated by common sense(ie, that everyone is better off if everyone is more kind/respectful/generous with everyone else), what is the harm in them being motivated by fear? If at the end of the day people are (trying) to behave better, it's a net gain, right?
There's some definite inconsistencies there though, which Tangerine(kind of amusingly since he was replying to a different post) hit pretty well with:
I think that is by a wide margin the biggest issue with religion right now. It is something that, regardless of your denomination or base religion, should be inherently good, since all the major religions (in addition to threatening to damn you eternally for disbelieving) are trying to get you to be a better person and to make communities more welcoming and effective. The problem, though, is that in a way that's surprisingly similar to the issues judges have with whether or not the constitution should be a living document, I think the holy books really need to be considered such as well. The words written are probably not important so much as the idea behind them(which I think you can basically boil down to good will and community service and generally being accepting of others). The terrible, ironic thing with religion is often that when things aren't interpreted that way, the very sources of those admirable ideas are used to work against the causes they represent.
I still think that, in general, people behave better because of religion, but I think at times it becomes a very dangerous safety blanket. I don't think there should ever be anything in life that you just read and think "well (x) says this, so it must be." Religion has a funny way of making people accept things without questioning it, and I don't think that's ever a good thing -- regardless of how that same trait probably benefits society by encouraging people to avoid committing deeds that are largely crimes nowdays(and thus there's an already an appeal to fear going) anyway.
I think people are probably slightly kinder because of religion, but slightly more closed minded too, and I'm not sure if that trade-off is worth it.
Snipping a bit to highlight what I want to reference
Although i sort of agree with you on the moral basis, I don't believe it hurts to be kind out of fear or Pleasing God. In turn, morals come back. Maybe the world would be more honest without religion, but not better. You talk about atheism as a self control, as if you don't want God to affect what you think. That's not really the right attitude to take. And you can't go round assuming everyone religious is nice because they don't think they have a choice.
No doubt that Religion is just a sometimes seemingly pathetic set of ideals, but it does have it merits. If I was going to be happier and a better person as a Christian I would become one. I supose I'm contradicting myself here, but I feel as long as you've got you're morals in the right place, and you enjoy life...
I think the thesis I want to pull from this(and hopefully discuss) is "regardless of whether or not God is real, is the world better off because of religion?"
I'm kind of torn on this. I was born into a very religious family, but even as a kid I don't think I ever really bought in. I spent most of my life believing in kind of the idea that you got at originally there - that regardless of why people were doing it, religion probably made people behave better. If people weren't motivated by common sense(ie, that everyone is better off if everyone is more kind/respectful/generous with everyone else), what is the harm in them being motivated by fear? If at the end of the day people are (trying) to behave better, it's a net gain, right?
There's some definite inconsistencies there though, which Tangerine(kind of amusingly since he was replying to a different post) hit pretty well with:
Religion dictates that we break ourselves on the rules, rather than break the rules because "we find them irrelevant". Doing so would be arrogance. The issue is that society has changed a lot, but religion has not adapted fast enough - hence what we need to do is find WHY the rules were there to begin with and live by such reasons.
I think that is by a wide margin the biggest issue with religion right now. It is something that, regardless of your denomination or base religion, should be inherently good, since all the major religions (in addition to threatening to damn you eternally for disbelieving) are trying to get you to be a better person and to make communities more welcoming and effective. The problem, though, is that in a way that's surprisingly similar to the issues judges have with whether or not the constitution should be a living document, I think the holy books really need to be considered such as well. The words written are probably not important so much as the idea behind them(which I think you can basically boil down to good will and community service and generally being accepting of others). The terrible, ironic thing with religion is often that when things aren't interpreted that way, the very sources of those admirable ideas are used to work against the causes they represent.
I still think that, in general, people behave better because of religion, but I think at times it becomes a very dangerous safety blanket. I don't think there should ever be anything in life that you just read and think "well (x) says this, so it must be." Religion has a funny way of making people accept things without questioning it, and I don't think that's ever a good thing -- regardless of how that same trait probably benefits society by encouraging people to avoid committing deeds that are largely crimes nowdays(and thus there's an already an appeal to fear going) anyway.
I think people are probably slightly kinder because of religion, but slightly more closed minded too, and I'm not sure if that trade-off is worth it.