Imminent Big Change: Keldeo

[doughboy]

Keldeo

Well I realized that it is almost upon us! In 9 days Keldeo is going to be released. Information about her new form, the Resolution Form, has been dug up by our friends in the Orange Islands. With that in mind (and realizing how close we were to June 23rd) I got curious about the competitive aspect of Keldeo. Since there hasn't been any big discussion (I have seen) in regards to what will occur when it is released, I thought I might as well bring it up.​

• How powerful is Keldeo?
• Is Keldeo going to bring something out of the lower tiers into OU like what occurred with Gastrodon?
• Is Keldeo even going to be a big change?

 

[Katakiri]

This should probably just be discussed here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79099

 

[Birkal]

This should probably just be discussed here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79099

Nope! This topic is unique enough that I'm going to allow it. The thread you linked to is pretty old anyways; let's do something fresh!

For the record, non-competitive discussion of Keldeo Resolution Forme can be found in the Orange Island B2W2 thread here.

On topic, Keldeo is a pretty strong force in the Dream World metagame and is pretty much a staple on most Rain-based teams. Secret Sword is a cool move that lets it bypass a lot of its would-be counters. I'm excited to see what tools B2W2 gives it; perhaps it will finally get Ice Beam.

 

[alamaster]

Might see an increase of Jellicent, but there aren't very many counters to Keldeo that don't involve the Dragons of some kind (Latis, Dnite, Mence I guess). Possibly broken in rain since Hydro Pump and Fighting coverage just wreck everything except for those mentioned above. Should be a lot of fun, pony so cute <3

 

[Joeyboy]

Yeah I see a spike in Jellicent and Latias in the future. Also I plan on using Toxic Spikes to tackle this lil guy. Keldeo and Terrakion teams are definitely gunna be a huge force as well as so few pokemon can take their powerful hits.

Also those two checks up there, both Pursuit weak. Just sayin

 

[Metal Bagon]

• How powerful is Keldeo?
  Not powerful enough to be confined to ubers but I think it'll stay in OU.
• Is Keldeo going to bring something out of the lower tiers into OU like what occurred with Gastrodon?
  Some things may come up, but then that may cause some new versions of Keldeo to emerge which will only be good.
• Is Keldeo even going to be a big change?
  No, I don't think so. Through the current research week in ubers I found through my experiences that Keldeo won't be game changing but'll still find a knack that it can fill in the metagame. This may change in OU but considering that ferrothorn can take on pretty well - even with the fighting moves - it won't be that big a change.

Just my honest answers to the questions.

PS: I also Jellicent having resurgence of sorts because of people wanting to try out Keldeo.

EDIT: Jellicent bit = ninja'd

 

[Jaetheho]

i think some of the lesser used ou pokes like tentacruel will rise in usage.

i genuinely hope that stuff like amoonguss will rise in usage. a defensive venusaur would also be cool

 

[Glory Blaze]

I guess keldeo will be something big in wifi OU. Infernape usage will go down and now sun has a big threat :O Jellicent would be a big counter, excluding calm mind sets with hidden power grass/electric. Dragons would be a problem to that set and will have to choose between HP ice, grass and electric to be able to hurt a counter.

 

[I Am]

Ice Beam would be an amazing coverage move for Keldeo.

These, off the top of my head, are the current OU pokes that resist Keldeo's STAB options:

-Gyarados
-Jellicent
-Tentacruel
-Starmie
-Dragonite
-Salamence
-Latios
-Latias
-Celebi
-Venusaur

That's a total of 10 pokes. Keep in mind that not all of them are solid Keldeo checks or counters - I don't think that Starmie would enjoy switching in on a rain boosted Specs Hydro Pump, for example. The addition of Ice Beam would grant Keldeo super effective coverage on 60% of its current OU STAB resistors, in addition to providing neutral coverage on Gyarados.

New possibilities aside, I think that Keldeo will unfortunately kick OU back into a more weather dominated metagame, as we saw in its early days. A rain boosted specs hydro pump is just that powerful, and we haven't had a truly potent OU abuser before this point. Choice Band Terrakion already makes short work of a lot of "physically bulky" OU pokes. Keldeo is the special version of that, but has the added benefit of gaining a huge boost when it is raining, at the cost of less effective STABs. I think it is potent enough to shape the metagame to some degree, and turn OU away from its current non-weather majority, because weather makes all the difference both using and battling against Keldeo.

EDIT: I suppose Toxicroak is also a STAB resistor due to Dry Skin, forgot about that.

 

[alamaster]

Keldeo doesn't learn Ice Beam.

 

[breh]

The problem is that Keldeo has Jellicent, which is as 100% of a counter as something can be.

Conversely, Terrakion has... what again? Nothing likes switching into one of Terrakion's STABs at worst (bar stupid crap like Golurk or Nidoqueen); things like Gliscor (+2 Rock Gem Stone Edge can OHKO with a bit of damage beforehand), Slowbro (same situation as Gliscor but a bit better), and Tangrowth (which is even better, but doesn't want to eat too many Close Combats with significant prior damage) all have difficulties countering Terrakion and, well, they're the things that are supposed to be countering it.

On the other hand. 252/252 + Jellicent takes LO HP Ghost for about 40%, avoiding a KO with SR or two layers of Spikes (in sand). Specs does better, but needs SR to have a chance at 2HKO.

Latias is another solid counter that also has the benefit of even better special bulk and Calm Mind + Psyshock to win any CM wars against Keldeo (one should tread carefully with Sacred Sword, though).

Keldeo will make an impact on the metagame, but I don't think it'll be a huge one. Still, it's hard to deny that 129 SpA tied with 108 Spe is good.

 

[SJCrew]

Why do people keep saying Jellicent is a counter? He learns Calm Mind and he will be using HP Ghost. 90% of players will just keep setting up on Jellicent or 2HKO your ass at +1. Meanwhile, your best countermeasure is...Energy Ball. Don't bring him up in a serious discussion unless you're talking about Specs.

 

[Cinccino]

I can see Scarf Heracross as a potent teammate for Keldeo although the two share Psychic and Flying weaknesses.
Heracross loves burn, has the bulk to take Scalds and can Pursuit Jellicent to death.
I'm sure it's also bulky enough to take Psyshock from Latias (thus doesnt invest that much in SpA) and kills with Megahorn or Pursuit and some good prediction.

 

[WaterBomb]

Mantine is the best Keldeo counter :D :D

Seriously though Water+Fighting isn't THAT great. Both are resisted by Dragon/Flying, Water/Flying, Grass/Flying, Water/Ghost, Bug/Grass, Grass/Poison, Water/Poison, Water/Psychic, Dragon/Psychic, Dragon/Ghost...of which there are NUMEROUS pokemon. HP electric or HP Ice might be your best coverage option, and that still leaves a significant number of pokes that resist it. I don't know what other coverage Keldeo has access to, but it sounds like there will be more counters than we think at this point.

 

[alphatron]

Why do people keep saying Jellicent is a counter? He learns Calm Mind and he will be using HP Ghost. 90% of players will just keep setting up on Jellicent or 2HKO your ass at +1. Meanwhile, your best countermeasure is...Energy Ball. Don't bring him up in a serious discussion unless you're talking about Specs.

What about Keldeo's other counters who aren't bothered by hp ghost. So far, it's only venusaur (who isn't all that common) and bulky gyarados, but still.

I agree on jellicient not being that big of a deal though. Toxic is about all he can do.

 

[kokoloko]

Yeah, I'm agreeing with most of the above posters.

On paper, Keldeo is amazing, but it seems to be that its being over-hyped. Between Dragonite being as popular as it is, (Scarf) Mence existing, Latios, Latias, and Starmie commonly running Psyshock nowadays, and all the other things listed a couple posts above being nice checks / counters as well, Keldeo will likely fit OU like a glove.

 

[Harsha]

Well, I don't think Keldeo is going to be broken, but I must say, a lot of you guys are bringing up some bad checks. From I Am's list, Dragonite, Salamence, Starmie, and Gyarados are not close to checks. Maybe Starmie because of its access to Psyshock, but the rest are all 2HKOed by Hydro Pump in the rain. Remember, just because something resists and attack does not mean it becomes a good check. In addition, offensive Celebi or those that use Thunder Wave will really be the only ones stopping Keldeo, as it can just rack up Calm Mind boosts, while Celebi does not have access to Psyshock to stop anything from happening.

Obviously as soon as it comes out, there will be a spike in Keldeo usage; that's a given. I think it can be potentially metagame changing. Its best counters are in fact Latias and Jellicent, but Jellicent is weak to Hidden Power Ghost as SJCrew said. Latias can always use Psyshock so it keeps Keldeo in check, while Jellicent fights Choice Specs and SubCM variants nicely. However, this may not be the only change; I've found that Keldeo works extremely well in rain. Rain usage might spike from Keldeo's power immediately. I think that using Keldeo on any other team isn't exactly playing to its strengths -- you lose a lot of 2HKOs you would have otherwise.

Also, someone brought up Ferrothorn as a counter to Keldeo earlier... Fighting STAB decimates Ferrothorn, I'm not sure where that was going.

I've experimented with a double dance Terrakion and Keldeo core that someone brought up earlier, and we are actually using that same core in the Dream World CCAT -- it's highly effective, and, because suspects will probably be unbanned with the release of B2W2, it will fight even the likes of Excadrill fairly well.

Something needs to be said about how this is probably the best special attacker that can actually get by both Blissey and Chansey -- imagine what a hit stall teams will take when their special sponge cannot switch into a special sweeper. That's something!

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

So what Im getting here is Latias with psychoshock is the best Keldeo counter right. Ok I better start making a stall team with a Blissey/Chansey + Latias special core. Someone please stop me right now if that's not right.

Also, what about Celebi? Just wondering it seems pretty solid as well, but IDK I have never played dream world.

 

[WaterBomb]

I think a couple of other counters like Mantine and Tentacruel need to be considered, because their resistance to both STABs is further aided by extremely high Special Defense. Mantine even has Water Absorb, which means that Rain-boosted Hydro Pimp is useless. Even with CM to boost its SpD, its physical defenses aren't good enough to withstand strong physical SE attacks without significant EV investment, which would require taking some away from either SpA or Spe. Any faster or CS Brave Bird user with decent Attack could OHKO Keldeo, as well as mons with STAB Psyshock or Seed Bomb. Hell, even Wild Charge puts a dent in it, but the only mons that would have enough power to do it would be CB/LO Zebstrika, CB Tauros, CB/LO Thundurus, CS Electivire, and CS Luxray, only one of which are even usable in OU.

I think I'm just echoing the sentiments of others. Keldeo looks good on paper, but there's enough pokemon that can counter, check, or revenge kill it that it won't become a Standard staple. It will see plenty of use, but there won't be a drastic change to the metagame, at least not on the scale of Terrakion.

 

[Rakan]

And what exactly is Tentacruel going to be doing back? Burn it with Scald? Lol

Keldeo uses Tentacruel as set-up bait, and a +2 Secret Sword is going to hurt - hell even Hydro Pump in the rain will hurt. The only thing it can hope to do is Toxic Keldeo, but if Keldeo carries Substitute it's gg.

As a frequent player of Dream World, despite the metagame's numerous unbanned threats, Keldeo still stands out as one of the most dangerous Pokemon to face. It can single-handedly destroy every weather inducer with its STAB moves alone - that should already speak for itself just how powerful this pony is. While I don't know if it'll be powerful enough to be deemed über, it will certainly have a large impact on the OU metagame.

And Pokemon who are 2HKOed by Hydro Pump in the rain should not be considered counters at all, especially of they are wrecked by an HP of some sort.

 

[alexwolf]

Keldeo is definitely going to shake up the metagame! Between the Specs set, the CM +3 attacks set with LO, and the SubCM lefties set, Latias seems as the only true counter to Keldeo. Many of the pokes that resists its stabs can't do anything in return (Jellicent and Tentacruel), and some others simply get 2hkoed by rain boosted Hydro Pump or are demolished by the right Hidden Power (Mence, Gyarados, offensive Celebi, and Dragonite).

I can't be sure if it will be broken or not, but i am almost sure that it will be brought up as a suspect in the future, and for good reasons!

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Mind if I ask but what does this Latias set actually look like. Is it just like the standard Latias set with psychoshock over dragon pulse? Ive been looking all over the dream world section of the site and the only Latias set with psychoshock is an offensive calm mind one, which isn't to my tastes.

 

[alexwolf]

Standard CM Latias (252 HP / 252 Spe), with Psyshock instead of Dragon Pulse / HP Fire is the best set to use against Keldeo, imo. It beats every single Keldeo set (except the underrated SubToxic Keldeo)!

 

[Manaphy]

Keldeo looks like one the biggest threats that'll be around when BW2 rolls around.

Wouldn't Celebi work well as a counter? Yeah it doesn't like Hidden Powers but it resists both his STABs and can hit back.

 

[WaterBomb]

Now that I look at it, I forgot that Secret Sword attacks the target's defense, which removes Mantine completely even with the resistance. I think Keldeo will ultimately be packing HP Ghost to take care of Jellicent and Latias, because Jellicent with Water Absorb is completely immune to both STAB moves, and Latias heavily resists them with her bulk. The necessity for 3 attacks to gain coverage leaves the only viable sets being CM+LO and Specs varieties, which forces Keldeo to forgo Sub and opens it up to Toxic and TWave and therefore increases its potential counters. Any pokemon with Water Absorb/Storm Drain and enough defensive bulk to take a resisted or neutral Secret Sword could come in on Hydro Pump and phaze/haze/status Keldeo, at worst removing its boosts and at best crippling it completely. I believe Keldeo is not going to be uber or broken, and I believe it is actually even below Terrakion as far as power considering its inferior offensive type coverage.

EDIT: To address the above poster, Celebi is probably not the best counter for Keldeo. Sure he resists both STABs, but he still won't like taking multiple Rain Dance+STAB+CM boosted Hydro Pumps. Not to mention Celebi commonly runs Giga Drain or Grass Knot anyway, which wouldn't do as much damage to Keldeo if it has any CM boosts. The best Celebi can do is status or leech seed it, but I think Keldeo would overwhelm it eventually with the sheer power of Hydro Pump.