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Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]
- Thread starter Snaquaza
- Start date
Keldeo and Landorus-Therian will be suspected right now.
Keldeo is just hilariously strong. It has two main sets, but can probably run more to lure its checks. It can inherit from Primal Kyogre to gain Primordial Sea and Water Spout to destroy everything that doesn't resist it and is extremely bulky. It even gets Thunder and Ice Beam coverage, in addition to a strong stab when its worn down in Origin Pulse. Its other set is from Mega Blastoise. It gets Rapid Spin to support its team, but the main advantage are the pulse moves. It still has strong water STAB, but it's Fighting STAB gets ridiculously strong with Aura Sphere and a 1.5 boost. It also gets great coverage in Dark Pulse and Dragon Pulse. Other sets it could run might be Sheer Force with Scald, Focus Blast, Ice Beam and something like Ancient Power; a special Protean set from Kecleon or even an Unburden Calm Mind set from Slurpuff!
Landorus Therian isn't as hard to stop, but it's still a huge threat, especially to offense. Its Brave Birds are extremely strong and it has Flare Blitz as coverage on a Gale Wings set. This allows it to at least 2HKO most things on offense, especially with a band. It can even threaten most things on balance and stall because it has a 120 BP Priority STAB of a 145 Base Attack. Even some resists get demolished if they switch in, even Zapdos if it doesn't have enough defensive investment or switches in on Rock! It's also hard to revenge as it'll always attack with priority and has decent bulk. Your best bet is Mega Glalie, but that can't switch in and the things taht can switch in ruin your momentum.
You may post your votes in the thread, but you'll be required to give some explanation at each vote to show that you know the metagame. Any uninformed votes won't be counted. After this vote there'll probably be a council who will decide, but we'll still ask in the thread first.
I'd also like to see discussion on: Simple, Protean and Contrary
Keldeo is just hilariously strong. It has two main sets, but can probably run more to lure its checks. It can inherit from Primal Kyogre to gain Primordial Sea and Water Spout to destroy everything that doesn't resist it and is extremely bulky. It even gets Thunder and Ice Beam coverage, in addition to a strong stab when its worn down in Origin Pulse. Its other set is from Mega Blastoise. It gets Rapid Spin to support its team, but the main advantage are the pulse moves. It still has strong water STAB, but it's Fighting STAB gets ridiculously strong with Aura Sphere and a 1.5 boost. It also gets great coverage in Dark Pulse and Dragon Pulse. Other sets it could run might be Sheer Force with Scald, Focus Blast, Ice Beam and something like Ancient Power; a special Protean set from Kecleon or even an Unburden Calm Mind set from Slurpuff!
Landorus Therian isn't as hard to stop, but it's still a huge threat, especially to offense. Its Brave Birds are extremely strong and it has Flare Blitz as coverage on a Gale Wings set. This allows it to at least 2HKO most things on offense, especially with a band. It can even threaten most things on balance and stall because it has a 120 BP Priority STAB of a 145 Base Attack. Even some resists get demolished if they switch in, even Zapdos if it doesn't have enough defensive investment or switches in on Rock! It's also hard to revenge as it'll always attack with priority and has decent bulk. Your best bet is Mega Glalie, but that can't switch in and the things taht can switch in ruin your momentum.
You may post your votes in the thread, but you'll be required to give some explanation at each vote to show that you know the metagame. Any uninformed votes won't be counted. After this vote there'll probably be a council who will decide, but we'll still ask in the thread first.
I'd also like to see discussion on: Simple, Protean and Contrary
Keldeo should be quickly banned because it is just outrageous. Keldeo has the ability to OHKO basically every mon in the game with its primordial sea set, and we are literally forced to run water absorb to have a reliable counter to it (desolate land has no recovery). So we should run water absorb on every team? I really don't think so. Its easy to pair it with a mon that walls revenge killers (unaware rhyperior) and it becomes pretty difficult to stop. It also has the coverage and power to beat some water absorb mons as well, and a coverage move could even beat those.
Testiment to this: I had a keldeo with no EVs last night and was still able to sweep a team with specs spout. Please, lets get this thing the hell out of the tier, with a little team support water absorb is its only answer, proof of the overcentralization.
Lant is a pretty good mon thats a big time threat, I am on the fence and some convincing arguments will get my vote. It has amazing power to sweep teams, but plenty of good counters; most bulky rock types (which are much better since they get recovery) can hard counter it.
Keldeo: Ban
Landorus-T: Abstain
Testiment to this: I had a keldeo with no EVs last night and was still able to sweep a team with specs spout. Please, lets get this thing the hell out of the tier, with a little team support water absorb is its only answer, proof of the overcentralization.
Lant is a pretty good mon thats a big time threat, I am on the fence and some convincing arguments will get my vote. It has amazing power to sweep teams, but plenty of good counters; most bulky rock types (which are much better since they get recovery) can hard counter it.
Keldeo: Ban
Landorus-T: Abstain
Keldeo for ban. In standard OU, Keldeo manages to be S-Rank despite having both a mediocre ability and movepool. Keldeo has no such restriction here, and despite the powered up nature of the metagame, manages to be both overpowering and overcentralizing. Keldeo has the ability to easily smash through stall teams with it's insanely strong moves, as the only pokemon I've found that can manage to avoid a 2hko from either of it's most popular sets(assuming it runs Flash Cannon) is water absorb Florges.
It's two best sets are Mega Launcher and Primordial sea, the first one being designed to blast through the counters of the other one. Mega Launcher can 2hko Chansey, 2hko Blissey, and mos twater absorb mons, including Doublade and any other ghosts (with dark pulse.) It can also hit fairies with flash cannon (although it's unfortunately not boosted), and still have a powerful STAB in water pulse. The first set, though, is the more dangerous one, being extremely strong with a Primordial Sea boosted water spout, and powerful bolt-beam coverage. Keldeo also has a third very dangerous set (which I haven't tested) in quiver dance from Masquerain, but that set should be easier to stop due to it's lack of coverage, and the prominence of water absorb.
It's two best sets are Mega Launcher and Primordial sea, the first one being designed to blast through the counters of the other one. Mega Launcher can 2hko Chansey, 2hko Blissey, and mos twater absorb mons, including Doublade and any other ghosts (with dark pulse.) It can also hit fairies with flash cannon (although it's unfortunately not boosted), and still have a powerful STAB in water pulse. The first set, though, is the more dangerous one, being extremely strong with a Primordial Sea boosted water spout, and powerful bolt-beam coverage. Keldeo also has a third very dangerous set (which I haven't tested) in quiver dance from Masquerain, but that set should be easier to stop due to it's lack of coverage, and the prominence of water absorb.
Keldeo: Ban
Honestly, anything below 108 speed tier is practically unviable on offense because of this thing, and every time this thing comes in on something slower than it, that thing dies. Just that one set, primordial sea, forces people to run the most ridiculous, stupid counters just to get around this thing. I've had to resort to RegenVest Blissey on my "stallish" team, and some people run water absorb sylveon, or even stuff like regenvest ludicolo. That's the definition of overcentralizing.
Landorus-Therian: Do not ban
Honestly, it's just a talonflame on steroids, but nothing more than that. Sure, the gale wings set wrecks offense, but as long as you have 1 decent rock type switch-in, that Landorus-T suddenly isn't as big and scary as it used to be. Then there's the other sets; aerilate/delta stream. Now landorus-t loses out on a lot of speed, so it's suddenly incredibly easy to deal with on offense, and stall has ways of getting past it anyways.
Simple:
This isn't too problematic, until someone finds a simple pokemon that can reliably set up and easily sweep, I don't see how this will be doing anything anytime soon. Slowbro's bulk is underwhelming, victini's typing isn't too great for bulky sweeping purposes, and stored power is simply stopped cold by dark types or bulky unaware.
Protean:
Really unpredictable, and can be extremely good if used correctly. The power and defensive capabilities allow this to be one of the best abilities. However, lack of the extremespeed or set up protean pokemon is what keeps it from reaching the broken levels aaa reached.
Contrary;
Mediocre. The best pokemon to steal from are serperior, and malamar/spinda, and all you get it superpower or leaf storm, nothing more. Sure contrary leaf storm is pretty good, especially with something like mega sceptile, but it's not exactly good enough to come close to being broken, and contrary superpower was just bad in my experience using it.
Honestly, anything below 108 speed tier is practically unviable on offense because of this thing, and every time this thing comes in on something slower than it, that thing dies. Just that one set, primordial sea, forces people to run the most ridiculous, stupid counters just to get around this thing. I've had to resort to RegenVest Blissey on my "stallish" team, and some people run water absorb sylveon, or even stuff like regenvest ludicolo. That's the definition of overcentralizing.
Landorus-Therian: Do not ban
Honestly, it's just a talonflame on steroids, but nothing more than that. Sure, the gale wings set wrecks offense, but as long as you have 1 decent rock type switch-in, that Landorus-T suddenly isn't as big and scary as it used to be. Then there's the other sets; aerilate/delta stream. Now landorus-t loses out on a lot of speed, so it's suddenly incredibly easy to deal with on offense, and stall has ways of getting past it anyways.
Simple:
This isn't too problematic, until someone finds a simple pokemon that can reliably set up and easily sweep, I don't see how this will be doing anything anytime soon. Slowbro's bulk is underwhelming, victini's typing isn't too great for bulky sweeping purposes, and stored power is simply stopped cold by dark types or bulky unaware.
Protean:
Really unpredictable, and can be extremely good if used correctly. The power and defensive capabilities allow this to be one of the best abilities. However, lack of the extremespeed or set up protean pokemon is what keeps it from reaching the broken levels aaa reached.
Contrary;
Mediocre. The best pokemon to steal from are serperior, and malamar/spinda, and all you get it superpower or leaf storm, nothing more. Sure contrary leaf storm is pretty good, especially with something like mega sceptile, but it's not exactly good enough to come close to being broken, and contrary superpower was just bad in my experience using it.
With lanturn being such a good donor to keldeo checks (thundy being one of the better ones in my opinion, as it resists aura sphere and outspeeds), blobs in general (since it no longer has secret sword) and general weakness to offensive priority spam, I think keldeo is fine for the moment. I vote no ban.
Lando T as others have said is good (and certainly centralizing) there will always be top dogs in any tier, and landoge is just a strong mon in a format like this. Things like rhydon and magnezone (w/levitate) make it look pretty dumb, and offensively espeed/ate spam etc keep it in check. No ban. It's just a powered up tflame, and this whole tier is powered up.
Simple: Requires set up, doesn't have too much coverage on the donors, seems fine.
Protean is kept in check mostly by it's movepool (be it kecleon or ninja). I think it's fine. Yes theres a ton of coverage, but honestly it's not overpowering.
Contrary: Nah. There's like 1 abuse move on either mon. Not necessary.
Lando T as others have said is good (and certainly centralizing) there will always be top dogs in any tier, and landoge is just a strong mon in a format like this. Things like rhydon and magnezone (w/levitate) make it look pretty dumb, and offensively espeed/ate spam etc keep it in check. No ban. It's just a powered up tflame, and this whole tier is powered up.
Simple: Requires set up, doesn't have too much coverage on the donors, seems fine.
Protean is kept in check mostly by it's movepool (be it kecleon or ninja). I think it's fine. Yes theres a ton of coverage, but honestly it's not overpowering.
Contrary: Nah. There's like 1 abuse move on either mon. Not necessary.
On another note...
Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Growth
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power
We got a terrifying wallbreaker over here (though walled by FF Skarm/Ferro). Camerupt is a cool donor for this thing, allowing it to set up to +2 then nuke stuff with a powerful Fire Blast.
Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Growth
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power
We got a terrifying wallbreaker over here (though walled by FF Skarm/Ferro). Camerupt is a cool donor for this thing, allowing it to set up to +2 then nuke stuff with a powerful Fire Blast.
+2 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 321-378 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Sylveon in Sun: 484-571 (122.8 - 144.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges in Sun: 385-454 (106.9 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 540-636 (133.6 - 157.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 250-294 (78.3 - 92.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Sylveon in Sun: 484-571 (122.8 - 144.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges in Sun: 385-454 (106.9 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 540-636 (133.6 - 157.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 250-294 (78.3 - 92.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Delphox @ Choice Specs
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Eruption
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast
It's the closest thing to a Fire!Keldeo that exists. It's about 91.6% as powerful, it misses out on speed tying with the Swords of Justice and Infernape, hates Stealth Rock (Eruption still beats Fire Blast at 75% HP), and has less Physical bulk; it is weak to U-Turn, but not Volt Switch. Its Mega Blastoise set would be mediocre. Delphox could, potentially, serve as Keldeo's replace. I dunno for sure, I'll have to test it out.
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Eruption
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast
It's the closest thing to a Fire!Keldeo that exists. It's about 91.6% as powerful, it misses out on speed tying with the Swords of Justice and Infernape, hates Stealth Rock (Eruption still beats Fire Blast at 75% HP), and has less Physical bulk; it is weak to U-Turn, but not Volt Switch. Its Mega Blastoise set would be mediocre. Delphox could, potentially, serve as Keldeo's replace. I dunno for sure, I'll have to test it out.
notably it resists fighting, a scarf set could be a good keldeo check.
Actually it doesnt even need scarf to beat Keldeo, most of which pack boltbeam coverage; since thunder is 50% accuracy outside the rain and ice beam is resisted.
ofc it still has issues switching in so something like Delta Stream Landot or Gliscwhore oughta work well if you can manage to switch in safely for the purpose of resetting weather.
Here's something to think about when considering banning / unbanning a Pokemon in this meta. There are only 3 things that matter about a Pokemon in this meta since moves and abilities are inherited.
1. Base stats
2. Type
3. What it mega evolves into (if applicable)
Let's start with Landorus-T. Landorus-T has the highest attack of all Flying types, so it is the most popular abuser of Talonflame's Gale Wings set. But even if Landorus-T were banned, Archeops, Salamence, and Dragonite could pull off the set almost as well as Landorus-T. Landorus-T does have an advantage over these Pokemon because it can run an Aerialate set with STAB Earthquake, but getting STAB on EQ is not that big of a deal when you are mostly going to be spamming Return anyway (and you could still use Landorus-I even if its therian form were banned if you really want STAB EQ). If anything should be suspected here, it's Gale Wings or Aerialate, not Lando-T. So do not ban Landorus-T.
Now let's look at Keldeo. The main reason it is so powerful is Drizzle / Primordial Sea + Water Spout coming off of its high special attack and speed tier (It can also do the Mega Launcher set, but even a super effective Mega Launcher Aura Sphere does only slightly more damage to Chansey than a full power rain boosted Water Spout). If Keldeo were banned, the next best abuser of this combo would be Starmie (Greninja would be slightly better than Starmie if it were unbanned). Starmie has significantly less special attack than Keldeo, so it can't just 2HKO Chansey with Specs Water Spout like Keldeo can, but it can still blast the shit out of anything that lacks priority or does not resist Water Spout. I say ban Keldeo for now because its raw power allows it to kill some defensive threats and resists that Starmie can't, but we may have to suspect Drizzle, Primordial Sea, and/or Water Spout if Starmie becomes broken too. Also, just Water Absorb and Storm Drain can be used to check / counter rain boosted Water Spouts does not mean they aren't broken. In a meta where every Pokemon can have abilities like Adaptability, Protean, Sheer Force, Prankster, Magic Guard, Magic Bounce, etc., people using niche shit like Water Absorb or Storm Drain just proves that the combo is over-centralizing.
1. Base stats
2. Type
3. What it mega evolves into (if applicable)
Let's start with Landorus-T. Landorus-T has the highest attack of all Flying types, so it is the most popular abuser of Talonflame's Gale Wings set. But even if Landorus-T were banned, Archeops, Salamence, and Dragonite could pull off the set almost as well as Landorus-T. Landorus-T does have an advantage over these Pokemon because it can run an Aerialate set with STAB Earthquake, but getting STAB on EQ is not that big of a deal when you are mostly going to be spamming Return anyway (and you could still use Landorus-I even if its therian form were banned if you really want STAB EQ). If anything should be suspected here, it's Gale Wings or Aerialate, not Lando-T. So do not ban Landorus-T.
Now let's look at Keldeo. The main reason it is so powerful is Drizzle / Primordial Sea + Water Spout coming off of its high special attack and speed tier (It can also do the Mega Launcher set, but even a super effective Mega Launcher Aura Sphere does only slightly more damage to Chansey than a full power rain boosted Water Spout). If Keldeo were banned, the next best abuser of this combo would be Starmie (Greninja would be slightly better than Starmie if it were unbanned). Starmie has significantly less special attack than Keldeo, so it can't just 2HKO Chansey with Specs Water Spout like Keldeo can, but it can still blast the shit out of anything that lacks priority or does not resist Water Spout. I say ban Keldeo for now because its raw power allows it to kill some defensive threats and resists that Starmie can't, but we may have to suspect Drizzle, Primordial Sea, and/or Water Spout if Starmie becomes broken too. Also, just Water Absorb and Storm Drain can be used to check / counter rain boosted Water Spouts does not mean they aren't broken. In a meta where every Pokemon can have abilities like Adaptability, Protean, Sheer Force, Prankster, Magic Guard, Magic Bounce, etc., people using niche shit like Water Absorb or Storm Drain just proves that the combo is over-centralizing.
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Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Simple
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Heat Wave
- Air Slash/Roost
This thing is pretty fun. Simple Calm Mind to get double boosts. And the three remaining moves are literally all Swoobat can offer apart from Hidden Power. And since Heatran doesn't run Flash Fire anymore, Heat Wave can take care of it, as that's one of the few things that wall this completely. After a Calm Mind or two, no special attacker can do a lot of damage to this. EVs are simple though you could invest some more in bulk. You'll have to be ware of Physical Attackers though, base 100 speed isn't as great as it once was.
Unrelated question, does the game really detect move illegalities through custom game or something? If not, how does this get coded? Does the game need to know what poke to inherit to detect move illegalities?
Basically checking if the set is legal with every Pokemon, or more specifically every Pokemon that can have that ability.
Woah. Wouldn't that require a huge amount of coding?
You seem to be missing the main thing that makes simple good here wich is stored power. Unaware is quite common in this meta since most unaware mons have reliable recovery. But stored power lets simple mons muscle past unaware.
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Simple
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Heat Wave
- Air Slash/Roost
This thing is pretty fun. Simple Calm Mind to get double boosts. And the three remaining moves are literally all Swoobat can offer apart from Hidden Power. And since Heatran doesn't run Flash Fire anymore, Heat Wave can take care of it, as that's one of the few things that wall this completely. After a Calm Mind or two, no special attacker can do a lot of damage to this. EVs are simple though you could invest some more in bulk. You'll have to be ware of Physical Attackers though, base 100 speed isn't as great as it once was.
I kinda forgot that Stored Power existed. Thanks for the tip!
I don't think I quite understand this set's niche.
The Stored Power issue aside, is there any particular reason to use Mew over Jirachi? I mean, if your team really can't afford another Fire / Ground neutrality (in which case you should really consider getting FF or Levitate to have a reliable switch-in), or if you're really worried about Magnet Pull, I can see it, but Jirachi's typing is just better in almost every other situation.
And for that matter, I can only presume that the reason to use Mew over Slowbro is that Mew has a usable speed (Megabro has crit immunity, stellar Defense, and 130 SpA) -- in which case, why not run Timid? Is there some benchmark you want to hit at +2 Modest?
Even then, if you're looking for speed, the Alakazam set posted upthread does that better, with a great Special Attack too.
I guess what I want to know is what Mew brings to the table over Alakazam, Jirachi, and Slowbro, which provide more power and speed, better typing at the same state, and a mega, respectively. Sure, it's the only one that has a decent speed with usable bulk and a Fighting resistance, but it doesn't excel at any of these.
Also, I can't help but wonder whether there's a market for Unaware Tyranitar. It's immune to Stored Power, resists Heat Wave and Air Slash, and at 252/172+ with Leftovers, it even avoids the 3HKO from Timid Alakazam's Signal Beam (at 252/252+, there's a 30.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock). Of course, it's annihilated by anything inheriting from Lucario, but it counters the Simple users in this thread -- it can run Taunt to wear them down while healing itself is simple. It begins to have issues if the opponent is running HP Fighting, though...
if you have troubles with ttar
Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Simple
-Curse
-Waterfall
-useless
-useless
if you don't you probably should never use this set because it's practical shit.
I don't you read think you the post fully. How is Curse any more or less relevant to an Unaware user? It will just Toxic you and proceed to Recover/Stall.
I didn't want to use Alakazam as I felt it was too frail. As for Megabro, I was under the impression it was banned. You have a point about Jirachi though.
To me, keldeo is not currently the problem. Although it is extremely powerful, the reason people are pushing for a ban is because of the primordial seas set, for it forces you to run completely niche sets in order to counter it (thick fat laitas ftw), which does make it overcentralizing and banworthy. This in mind, if keldeo is banned, that will not solve the problem of excess water absorb mons. Just when you think you can make a team without preparing for water spout spam, some jerk will do this.
252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia in Heavy Rain: 276-325 (62.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The truth is that its not keldeo that has a lack of switch ins, the problem is primordial seas. Primordial seas is centralizing (for reasons already mentioned), and therefore i would rather see a ban on inheriting from kyogre, than a ban on keldeo itself. I think that things like mega launcher and sheer force are far from broken, and in fact provide offense with some healthy options in a stall heavy meta.
Landorus is also very strong, but stall and offense both have consistent ways of beating it. The amount of espeed in offense, and the fact that many levitate/flash fire mons on stall/balance counter many other pressing threats will save this thing from being banned.
252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia in Heavy Rain: 276-325 (62.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The truth is that its not keldeo that has a lack of switch ins, the problem is primordial seas. Primordial seas is centralizing (for reasons already mentioned), and therefore i would rather see a ban on inheriting from kyogre, than a ban on keldeo itself. I think that things like mega launcher and sheer force are far from broken, and in fact provide offense with some healthy options in a stall heavy meta.
Landorus is also very strong, but stall and offense both have consistent ways of beating it. The amount of espeed in offense, and the fact that many levitate/flash fire mons on stall/balance counter many other pressing threats will save this thing from being banned.