Looks like this thread needs a little more input from above!
PikachuOfDoom said:
However, Choice Band Adamant Trapinch does 85-100% damage to Max/Max Blissey which could make useable since it doesn't need any Speed EVs.
I'm not saying it beats Dugtrio but its interesting, especially in Trick Room Where it's min speed is 22
328 attack vs 130 defense, 100 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 714 max HP: 57% - 67.09%
328 attack vs 119 defense, 100 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 714 max HP: 62.32% - 73.39%
If you had another 50% boost it would, but as it is with just STAB and Choice Band that is not the case.
Interesting, yes, significant, not really. In Trick Room it outperforms Dugtrio, but the other 90% of the time it won't.
skiddle said:
I love how you're giving them both Toxic as a pro. The only things that cannot be given Toxic as a pro are Caterpie and Beldum and friends.
The key in comparing Pokemon is looking what one has over the other. They both get Counter, "Siesmic" Toss and Thunder Wave. Therefore, adding them to your list only gives the reader more work for the brains and the eyes, and we don't want that.
For Blissey vs Regice defensively, I would pull a Dragontamer and go with Defense tiers and shit, but instead I will go with something that is much easier to read.
Before we take into play that Blissey's type is much better than Regice when it comes to defense, we'll just take a random attack they're both neutral to. That means we'll spare Regice for the fact that he won't take Metagross Meteor Mash or Tyranitar Stone Edge if he values his life, so we'll instead take a Swampert Earthquake from 270 Attack.
Random Swampert Earthquake on max HP/max Def Bold Blissey:
270 attack vs 130 defense, 100 power(* 1.5), 714 max HP:
31.37% - 36.97%
Random Swampert Earthquake on max HP/max Def Bold Regice:
270 attack vs 328 defense, 100 power(* 1.5), 364 max HP:
24.73% - 29.12%
Regice is beating Blissey by a very small margin. We'll wave our hands downwards at claims that Blissey can recover instantly with Softboiled and doesn't eat Stealth Rock damage, and move on to the likely scenario that both Pokemon aren't maxing out their physical durability. They are Special walls, after all.
Random Swampert Earthquake on min HP/max Def, Bold Blissey:
270 attack vs 130 defense, 100 power(* 1.5), 651 max HP:
34.41% - 40.55%
Random Swampert Earthquake on max HP/max Def neutral-in-Def Regice:
270 attack vs 299 defense, 100 power(* 1.5), 364 max HP:
26.92% - 31.59%
I just gave Blissey 63 stat points to spare by completely minimizing HP, whereas all I did for Regice was taking off the favored nature. And Regice still wins by a very small margin.
I should do the same for both Pokemon? Ok. Here's minimum Def Regice with Bold:
270 attack vs 259 defense, 100 power(* 1.5), 364 max HP:
31.04% - 36.54%
So, we have like an 8% difference in damage receiving in favor of Regice when it comes to taking
physical hits,
without taking into account that Regice gets an auto-2x on his damage receiving on:
- Stone Edge
- Rock Slide
- Flare Blitz
- Meteor Mash
plus 25% extra damage from Stealth Rock, and no easy Softboiling/Wishing it off for Regice either. But nevermind that all, Regice must be better at taking physical hits, right?
I don't think it's a contest for taking Special hits since Blissey has only one weakness whereas Regice has three and Blissey has like twice as much HP in addition to slightly less SpDef. That leaves offense.
Stop saying Blissey's offense is nonexistent. Seismic Toss does 100 guaranteed damage on anything that is not a Ghost, and that's just one attack, no prediction involved, and 2 moveslots (not counting recovery move) left for other attacks/utility. Something like Regice needs 2 moveslots alone to have remotely acceptable offense, and then he still isn't guaranteed that 100 damage - usually he will do less.
Finally,
No thanks, Curse is novelty and Amnesia is awful.
If you were to submit a new, beautiful look of Blissey to Gamefreak and they would implement that image over the old one, would that change her battling effectiveness in the slightest?
Tauros said:
I think a good EV trained Breloom with spore Sub and Focus Punch could haandle a blissey very well I mean 150+STAB40+very efectiv=380
I never tried it but I think it should work if not reply
Here's the list of things that are wrong with your post:
- STAB gives a 50% boost, not a 40BP boost, wherever you picked that up. Focus Punch would in fact have 450 base power on Blissey.
- You seem to be assuming that people have a problem countering Blissey. That is not the point. The point is that Blissey centralizes the metagame by walling so much shit.
- You seem to be assuming that handling a Pokemon equals countering a Pokemon. That is not true. Every Blissey under the sun carries Ice Beam or Flamethrower. Breloom is nearly OHKOed by both.
- You seem to be assuming that you will ever Focus Punch a Blissey with Breloom. The day that happens is the day Jumpman16 makes a one-word post outside of TDC/Firebot. Coincidentally, that very same day Misty will lose weight.
Tauros said:
but could that focus punch theoratecly 1hko it?
Double post and the above counter to all your assumptions ignoring, yes.
Chris is me said:
It would, yes, but Spiritomb is nowhere near the "2nd" Special wall. Empoleon's 11 resistances and one immunity and only one Special weak (Electric) makes it an effective stopping force.
Naming random pro's does not make a Pokemon good. If Spiritomb isn't the 2nd Special wall then Empoleon isnowhere near #40 with his gazillion weaknesses and lack of a paralyzing move.
Salamaster said:
i wish the likes of blissey fans would stop treating her like some god or something. we dont need blissey
I wonder what gives you the idea that we don't need Blissey at all, because the way I see it without Blissey we really would be in a hyperoffensive metagame. But that's something we can't know, so moving on...
Salamaster said:
i just resently started using one (for far different reasons mind you) and i did just fine if not great without her. bronzong works wonders.
Different reasons? I would like to know what
a) the not-reason is that you use Blissey, since different implies that there's a reason to use Blissey that is not the reason for you to use Blissey
and if that reason is Special walling,
b) what the hell you're using Blissey for
Bronzong is nowhere near Blissey as a Special wall. Special Attackers that beat Blissey are far and far inbetween without losing a ton of versatility. Depending on what trait you picked Bronzong loses to Fire or Ground Special Attackers by default.
Salamaster said:
she's not the end all be all. like said above, any physical attack makes her cry, and even if it doesnt OHKO (which some do) then it still leaves a huge dent. walls are not supposed to take huge dents. they're supposed to "wall" them. as i recall, no smart player would leav a blissey in on a physical attack. even if it doesnt OHKO
Physical attacks...that's like 50%, perhaps even 60 or 70% of the attacks used in the metagame, by estimation. That would imply about everything rapes Blissey, but such is not the case as damage calculations have shown. In fact, she fares better than a ton of frail sweepers out there, but nobody sane weeps about their usability.
LGY said:
Don't forget Electivire. And T-Wave Blissey wasn't exactly safe in ADV either, what with SubGar and various Guts users roaming around.
There's a grand total of one OU Gutser in Advance and his name is Heracross, and he doesn't even like being paralyzed. SubGar wasn't popular in late Advance.
Salamaster again said:
the only problem with that is that that may work in game, but only a fool would leave ANY attack unboosted online and still hope to kill things. like 90% of the attacks are boosted now.
You don't "boost" early in the game before you know what's up, so Blissey can be of use against things like DDmence already. You are also conveniently ignoring that Blissey takes boosted Special Attacks better than about anyone - the fact that she takes some physical hits as well is just a nice bonus.
Salamaster said:
i've had some success with blissey. she is not a bad poke at all i respect her for that. i'm just saying we dont NEED her. sure, no one comes up to her level, but alot of other pokes work very well too.
blissey is the best in the business no doubt. but the definition of gamebreaking is to be so good that everthing underneath is made unusable. many pokes are very usuable as special walls, even with blissey. so that means blissey may be very powerful (maybe a little over powered even) but that doesnt make her game breaking.
Game breaking and overpowered are so vastly different now? I would disagree. We do need Blissey in this metagame, because otherwise everyone's defenses would be crummy. It's pretty much impossible to build a team with both solid defense and still threatening offense at the same time - without Blissey you need even more different resistances on your team just to handle some specific Special threats.
