Is Blissey truly gamebreaking?

[Kabuto Mushi]

What about Heracross? Is it that he doesn't enjoy being Sing'd? Is it that the Blissey user can take a Pursuit and switch in Gliscor? Is it that everyone who uses Obi's Bliss hits Hera on the switch with Flamethrower? Be more specific.

You make valid points, these are all things that could happen. However, I would lol if a Blissy didn't OHKO from a close combat...

 

[Bourbon]

Uhhhhhhh, Metalfam, no offense, but I was listing alternatives, as in saying that there are other special walls in the game. Blissey may be the best, but there are others. Oh yes, and when you said Blissey can be an offensive threat, I don't really think 273 sp. atk (MAXIMUM) and no offensive STAB is pretty crappy.

Yes, Blissey is good, but anything can set up on it with a substitute. At least Regice can actually do something while he is out there... boltbeam. Cradily can swords dance and stone edge as well.

Also, screech + pursuit is a somewhat common strategy on Blissey. Magnezone also sometimes carries metal sound. You can't do that to Regice, and Cradily can't get hazed out... so yes, Natural Cure is sweet, but Restalking works as well... and you don't have to run away to make it work.

I also noticed all the offensive physical moves I listed you just said "no" to. I don't think Blissey can subpunch people, and it also cannot explode when it's about to die. Blissey can't really Hammer Arm stuff either. Having STAB on the more important move in the Boltbeam combo is nothing to sneer at, coming off 100 base sp. atk.

Considering Regice can do at least something on both ends of the spectrum is actually quite impressive... when you waste 504 EVs and your nature making blissey survive physical hits, it's offensive is severely weakened.

I haven't even barely touched on what Cradily can do yet, either. Instant recovery, sandstorm immunity, STAB stone edge, can't be hazed... the list goes on.


So yeah, in conclusion, going through a list of stuff another special wall can do and saying "no" and "blissey does this too" and "so what" doesn't really prove your point. Maybe if you made your own post of what blissey CAN do that's so special, people would be impressed.

 

[Infernape_Kong]

Uhhhhhhh, Metalfam, no offense, but I was listing alternatives, as in saying that there are other special walls in the game. Blissey may be the best, but there are others. Oh yes, and when you said Blissey can be an offensive threat, I don't really think 273 sp. atk (MAXIMUM) and no offensive STAB is pretty crappy.

Yes, Blissey is good, but anything can set up on it with a substitute. At least Regice can actually do something while he is out there... boltbeam. Cradily can swords dance and stone edge as well.

Also, screech + pursuit is a somewhat common strategy on Blissey. Magnezone also sometimes carries metal sound. You can't do that to Regice, and Cradily can't get hazed out... so yes, Natural Cure is sweet, but Restalking works as well... and you don't have to run away to make it work.

I also noticed all the offensive physical moves I listed you just said "no" to. I don't think Blissey can subpunch people, and it also cannot explode when it's about to die. Blissey can't really Hammer Arm stuff either. Having STAB on the more important move in the Boltbeam combo is nothing to sneer at, coming off 100 base sp. atk.

Considering Regice can do at least something on both ends of the spectrum is actually quite impressive... when you waste 504 EVs and your nature making blissey survive physical hits, it's offensive is severely weakened.

I haven't even barely touched on what Cradily can do yet, either. Instant recovery, sandstorm immunity, STAB stone edge, can't be hazed... the list goes on.


So yeah, in conclusion, going through a list of stuff another special wall can do and saying "no" and "blissey does this too" and "so what" doesn't really prove your point. Maybe if you made your own post of what blissey CAN do that's so special, people would be impressed.

Okay then, I'll go ahead and list the advantages Blissey has.

First of all, Cradily has an Ice weak. You mentioned how important Bolt-Beam is when discussing Regice, so that really hurts Cradily's walling capabilities.

Second of all, Regice has a Stealth Rock weak, meaning it takes 25% every switch-in to SR. That cuts off on its walling capabilities. Combined with the fact that it has no reliable recovery move, it's gonna be tough staying alive.

Thirdly, you have to take into account their ability to take special hits, you can't just say "no offense=bad!". Blissey has one of the best SpDef stats in the game, beaten only in standards by Regice, Registeel, Shuckle, Probopass, Mantine, and Bastiodon, and at least half of those aren't seeing much use as a special wall. And Regice and Cradily have "meh" HP (80 and 89 respectively) compared to Blissey's 225.

And what exactly can stat-up on Blissey? Only 55 standard Pokemon in the game can create Subsitutes that Blissey can't break with a single Seismic Toss. That means that "Subsitute beats Blissey" doesn't apply to 421 Pokemon in the game (unless you count ubers, where almost every Bliss is CM).

 

[Bourbon]

Sigh... once again, if you people would actually read what I write instead of reading merely this:

Blah blah blah, there are other pokes that can special wall too, blah blah blah, and can do stuff blissey cannot... blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Maybe you would actually get something from it. Yes, blissey is the toughest special wall in the business, but there are other pokes that can special wall as well, and do other stuff that Blissey can't. You can't possible argue with that statement...


PS: Have you ever used Cradily or Regice? I've tried all three, and all of them play differently... Rest isn't as good as softboiled, but clever timing can make it startlingly effective... (such as sleeptalking as a breloom spores and ice beaming it) and Cradily can counter and mirrorcoat, or double either of it's defenses with no fear of being phazed. And yes, all three of them get Seismic toss : )

 

[Infernape_Kong]

Oh yes, and when you said Blissey can be an offensive threat, I don't really think 273 sp. atk (MAXIMUM) and no offensive STAB is pretty crappy.

Yes, Blissey is good, but anything can set up on it with a substitute. At least Regice can actually do something while he is out there... boltbeam. Cradily can swords dance and stone edge as well.

I don't think Blissey can subpunch people, and it also cannot explode when it's about to die. Blissey can't really Hammer Arm stuff either. Having STAB on the more important move in the Boltbeam combo is nothing to sneer at, coming off 100 base sp. atk.

Considering Regice can do at least something on both ends of the spectrum is actually quite impressive... when you waste 504 EVs and your nature making blissey survive physical hits, it's offensive is severely weakened.

Maybe if you made your own post of what blissey CAN do that's so special, people would be impressed.

So please, DON'T pull a "I wish people read my posts instead of saying crap" out of your rear.

 

[prettyboiswagggg]

Actually, Skiddle, while perhaps I'd been JUST A BIT vague in my Bliss v Regice arguments, InfernapeKong summed it up pretty tangibly. I think you're missing out on who isn't paying attention.

 

[Taylor]

I wouldn't say gamebreaking. It obviously keeps the Meta stable, if you're making a team that is not balanced to take special hits, then you use a special wall, Blissey.

When you're using it for it's use, you're not exactly game breaking. Sure you set up a Toxic/SR on your opponent, but other than that, it just walls for you.

Gamebreaking is something like Infernape who has a wide viriety of moves making it impossble to get a solid counter.

 

[merubin]

And what exactly can stat-up on Blissey? Only 55 standard Pokemon in the game can create Subsitutes that Blissey can't break with a single Seismic Toss. That means that "Subsitute beats Blissey" doesn't apply to 421 Pokemon in the game (unless you count ubers, where almost every Bliss is CM).

Those numbers are more than a little misleading. We're not talking about all the Pokemon in the game; take out NFEs and you get down to 273ish depending on your criteria. Now, the number of standard Pokemon with Base 100 HP or Ghost typing is 63 (No NFEs), but I'm too lazy to look at who learns Substitute, so using your same 55 number, that means 20% of Pokemon can theoretically set up on Blissey, and that percentage is dropped by things like all the Wormadam varieties and Luvdisc in my numbers.

 

[StarmanXL]

Quite honestly, though, I still don't fully understand how Blissey is "game balancing". I mean, sure, it's the best special wall and stops tons of special attackers, but how exactly does that translate to the metagame being broken if it's not there?

I mean, to begin with, there are special sweepers who can threaten Blissey with special attacks (Lucario, Porygon-Z, etc.). If Blissey can't competently stop these pokemon in the first place, then shouldn't they be walking all over the metagame or something?

And then there are the special sweepers Blissey stops, such as Sceptile and (I think) Starmie. I know they're powerful, but it doesn't seem like they're killing teams should Blissey not be there.

And then there are the other 47% of teams who don't use a Blissey. If special sweepers are so broken, shouldn't these other teams be at a huge disadvantage or something, or have teams that are over-centralized to take on Blissey? Mekkah said earlier that, " Without Blissey, you're going to get swept by about any Special Attacker," but shouldn't you be able to take it down by other means?

I know I'm missing something, but I just can't see how Blissey is just that "game balancing," y'know?

 

[seds]

Sure maybe blissey is tough and stuff, but i use things i think are a whole lot cooler. There really isnt much to like about blissey... :[ it isnt much fun to battle.. i dont know why sOOO many people support the thing, you couldnt possibly like it...

As far as special walls go, well, i use stuff that ups defense. On shoddy you wouldnt believe how bad i can own people with... WHISCASH. it is my "wall" and cannot be OHKOd by grass knot! believe it!
whiscash @ chesto/leftovers
adamant/careful
252 attack 252 def 6 hp
or
252 sp. def 252 hp 6 attack
EQ
aquatail/waterfall/spark??
EQ
rest
amnesia- sleep talk is OK too.


IN GAME i use gastrodon: @ leftovers
modest--- not done EV training him, i plan on max special defense, some sp. atk, rest in defense.
muddy water/ surf
mud bomb/ice beam/HP ground :P
recover
stockpile

Gastrodon is FANTASTICLY tough after a stockpile or two. the one I use is sort of accuracy hax. It can survive pretty much any hit after 2 stockpiles that isnt choice specs'd leaf storm or a critical hit. I also have cradily as a special "wall" i tried to get recover (and fantastic IVs) from gastrodon. then i found out i need corsola... -_- ... both these Water Ground types have an immunity, SR resistance and over 404 HP, along with only 1 weakness. they aint no Blissey but good enough for me...

 

[Little Green Yoda]

If they have Taunt and Sub, that means they have only one attack. Either Shadow Ball (aka can't touch Blissey) or HP Fighting (aka can't touch Ghosts).

And whatever you send out to set up, they bring something that forces it out. Those cheap bastards! >=[

What's the point of having Substitute when you have Taunt? 81 HP Subs?

 

[Infernape_Kong]

Those numbers are more than a little misleading. We're not talking about all the Pokemon in the game; take out NFEs and you get down to 273ish depending on your criteria. Now, the number of standard Pokemon with Base 100 HP or Ghost typing is 63 (No NFEs), but I'm too lazy to look at who learns Substitute, so using your same 55 number, that means 20% of Pokemon can theoretically set up on Blissey, and that percentage is dropped by things like all the Wormadam varieties and Luvdisc in my numbers.

This is who can set up Sub without it being broken by Seismic Toss: They must have 100 Base HP or be a Ghost type. I think my counting was a little off, how's this:

First we start off with 57 Pokemon with Base 100 HP or higher.

We subtract 11 from that because there are eleven ubers with that qualification. 46.

We subtract 7 from that because there are seven NFE Pokemon with that qualification. 39.

Then we add 19 because there are nineteen potential Ghost-types. 58.

Then we subtract 2 because there are two ubers meeting that qualification. 56.

Then we subtract 7 because there are seven NFE Pokemon meeting that qualification. 49.

Then we subtract 1 because Drifblim met both qualifications and was listed twice. 48.

So yeah. A little off of my previous number. And you're right, it's wrong to say that it's out of 400 something because I didn't count NFEs who could potentially create unbreakable Subs. But since they aren't really used we shouldn't count them anyways.

 

[TVboyCanti]

2 words: Focus Punch