I think the closest you can get to Blissey on the physical side is perhaps Foretress or perhaps Regigas/Slaking
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Is Blissey truly gamebreaking?
- Thread starter Pikachu of Doom
- Start date
AA said:
You're skewing things in your favor and you know it. Nobody uses Moltres, for one, because everyone uses Stealth Rock.
Max Special Attack Choice Specs Moltres using Fire Blast on min HP/min SpDef Blissey:
383 attack vs 275 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 663 max HP: 40.87% - 48.11%
Same for Heatran:
394 attack vs 275 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 663 max HP: 42.08% - 49.47%
These are hardly the most common Special threats anyway. That aside, lots of people use Obi's Blissey set-up now, which has 361 SpDef.
Same Heatran vs 361 SpDef (216 EVs + Calm) Blissey:
394 attack vs 361 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 663 max HP: 32.28% - 38.01%
Obi said:
For that Nasty Plotting Azelf:
698 attack vs 275 defense, 90 power(* 1.5), 663 max HP: 37.1% - 43.59%
698 attack vs 361 defense, 90 power(* 1.5), 663 max HP: 28.36% - 33.48%
No fucking chance.
Does it matter if Moltres is used or not? It deals with Blissey the same way Heatran does so I included it. I'm not sure you really meant to suggest that Heatran isn't used; it's number 19 in usage. Heatran is one of the most common special threats in the game. Also, how is that math disproving me? That math does a great job of making my point. Blissey can't switch in all day with that sort of stuff. If it's ever not at full health or gets critted or anything screws it at all it dies. Unless you want to give strong physical attackers free switch ins all day (doing that makes you lose to the physical threats), you can't always switch Blissey into Heatran or Moltres and then immediately Softboiled. You have to do something that will not let them get away with just sending in their best physical attackers. Then you have to go out at not full health, and Blissey can never switch into Heatran or Moltres again. The Calm Blissey does a bit better (I predicted like a year ago that Blissey would need sdef; I'm the last person you need to sell the virtues of Calm Blissey to) but that's still usually a 3HKO, especially if there is sand. Heatran is not safe for Blissey no matter how you look at it, and that's before you consider Explosion.
Seriously, I'm going to go down the list of common special Pokemon and evaluate them in terms of how well they deal with Blissey.
#4 Gengar - Specs Focus Blast beats up Blissey if he feels like doing that. Those fun Perish Song sets also screw with Blissey. He can explode so Blissey doesn't feel safe around him. If sleep clause hasn't kicked in yet, his Hypnosis can make Blissey into a free switch in for something else.
#6 Salamence - I'll give Blissey this one, but she had better hope she guesses right that it's specsmence. If she runs into a CBmence instead, well, gg Blissey.
#12 Starmie - Why is this still used so much? Anyway, yeah, Blissey owns it.
#13 Infernape - Blissey will never want to switch into this guy. He's so dangerous physical or mixed, and he savages Blissey in both of those cases. The fact that she has to wait to see all four of his moves before she can confidently switch in really limits her here.
#19 Heatran - covered in great depth
#20 Lucario - Not only might he be physical, but his special variants also trash Blissey.
#23 Togekiss - Togekiss can heal and Nasty Plot. Blissey can paralyze Togekiss, but Togekiss can win here just by Nasty Plotting to +6 satk and then wiping out Blissey. There is also flinch hax which Togekiss gets a whole lot of (if Togekiss needs to sneak in one weaker hit before Aura Sphere can kill, it can rely more often than not on getting a flinch out of Air Slash).
#26 Yanmega - loses to Blissey
#28 PorygonZ - Owns Blissey
#29 Azelf - Okay, yeah, Psychic being only base 90 is a bummer, but at least it can Explode.
#32 Magnezone - At least he can explode
#33 Jirachi - Special Jirachi are rare anymore, though if Jirachi starts running away with Calm Mind Blissey will not like it.
#36 Jolteon - I hesitate to list this as a special threat... Yes it loses to Blissey, but killing stuff has never been something Jolteon has had much success at.
#39 Spiritomb - Pain Split and can easily run away with Nasty Plot means Blissey loses.
#43 Alakazam - Specs Alakazam (which is really the only zam people should use) can 2HKO with Focus Blast. He could also totally ruin Blissey by using Trick.
And we're exiting OU now. There are 15 special threats here. How does Blissey do?
It solidly beats three of them and can switch in all day.
Two more it beats but has to watch out for physical variants.
It beats two more in general but can still be killed by them with Explosion.
Two more are ghosts that have a ton of things that can really screw Blissey up.
Two more it can beat but aren't really safe for it.
One more is usually physical and can "run away" with stat boosting if special.
One more it can beat only if it predicts very well.
The last two completely destroy Blissey.
Really, that doesn't mean Blissey sucks, and I'm not trying to assert that. That is about what you would expect from an average wall. Of the 15 special threats who are most used, it safely counters three, completely loses to two, and can deal with the rest with various reservations and potential problems that require you to play Pokemon to avoid. However, I think this does prove my point that Blissey is overrated. People think it's a god among Pokemon. That is how it is rated. That's completely false. It's really not better than the other standards, you don't need it on your team, and it doesn't make you immune to special threats. I don't think I'm being unfair to Blissey; I'm "tl;dr"ing here to really go to the greatest effort to demonstrate exactly how good Blissey is.
Seriously, I'm going to go down the list of common special Pokemon and evaluate them in terms of how well they deal with Blissey.
#4 Gengar - Specs Focus Blast beats up Blissey if he feels like doing that. Those fun Perish Song sets also screw with Blissey. He can explode so Blissey doesn't feel safe around him. If sleep clause hasn't kicked in yet, his Hypnosis can make Blissey into a free switch in for something else.
#6 Salamence - I'll give Blissey this one, but she had better hope she guesses right that it's specsmence. If she runs into a CBmence instead, well, gg Blissey.
#12 Starmie - Why is this still used so much? Anyway, yeah, Blissey owns it.
#13 Infernape - Blissey will never want to switch into this guy. He's so dangerous physical or mixed, and he savages Blissey in both of those cases. The fact that she has to wait to see all four of his moves before she can confidently switch in really limits her here.
#19 Heatran - covered in great depth
#20 Lucario - Not only might he be physical, but his special variants also trash Blissey.
#23 Togekiss - Togekiss can heal and Nasty Plot. Blissey can paralyze Togekiss, but Togekiss can win here just by Nasty Plotting to +6 satk and then wiping out Blissey. There is also flinch hax which Togekiss gets a whole lot of (if Togekiss needs to sneak in one weaker hit before Aura Sphere can kill, it can rely more often than not on getting a flinch out of Air Slash).
#26 Yanmega - loses to Blissey
#28 PorygonZ - Owns Blissey
#29 Azelf - Okay, yeah, Psychic being only base 90 is a bummer, but at least it can Explode.
#32 Magnezone - At least he can explode
#33 Jirachi - Special Jirachi are rare anymore, though if Jirachi starts running away with Calm Mind Blissey will not like it.
#36 Jolteon - I hesitate to list this as a special threat... Yes it loses to Blissey, but killing stuff has never been something Jolteon has had much success at.
#39 Spiritomb - Pain Split and can easily run away with Nasty Plot means Blissey loses.
#43 Alakazam - Specs Alakazam (which is really the only zam people should use) can 2HKO with Focus Blast. He could also totally ruin Blissey by using Trick.
And we're exiting OU now. There are 15 special threats here. How does Blissey do?
It solidly beats three of them and can switch in all day.
Two more it beats but has to watch out for physical variants.
It beats two more in general but can still be killed by them with Explosion.
Two more are ghosts that have a ton of things that can really screw Blissey up.
Two more it can beat but aren't really safe for it.
One more is usually physical and can "run away" with stat boosting if special.
One more it can beat only if it predicts very well.
The last two completely destroy Blissey.
Really, that doesn't mean Blissey sucks, and I'm not trying to assert that. That is about what you would expect from an average wall. Of the 15 special threats who are most used, it safely counters three, completely loses to two, and can deal with the rest with various reservations and potential problems that require you to play Pokemon to avoid. However, I think this does prove my point that Blissey is overrated. People think it's a god among Pokemon. That is how it is rated. That's completely false. It's really not better than the other standards, you don't need it on your team, and it doesn't make you immune to special threats. I don't think I'm being unfair to Blissey; I'm "tl;dr"ing here to really go to the greatest effort to demonstrate exactly how good Blissey is.
Regigigas/Slaking still take more damage from the physical side than Blissey takes from the special side. Barring the fact that they have more weaknesses, Regirock and Steelix are the closest to "physical-defensive Blissey" that you can get.
Let me rephrase: I think the closest you can get to a Blissey on the physical side is perhaps Foretress or perhaps Regigas/Slaking
Meaning walling on the physical side as well as a 714/306 Blissey can on the special side. Max/Max Foretress comes close (well...):
Attack Needed To OHKO
Blissey:
STABed B100 Fighting 1013
UnSTABed B100 "" 1523
STABed B120 Fire 1694
UnSTABed B70 Fire 4362
STABed B100 Rock 2033
Foretress:
STABed B100 Fighting 1367
UnSTABed B100 "" 2056
STABed B120 Fire 281
UnSTABed B70 Fire 729
STABed B100 Rock 1367
*More likely moves in bold
On their weaker sides with Max/Max Blissey versus Max/156 (Min) Foretress is a similar story with Fortress at about 2/3 of Blissey's defensive capacity.
Regigas is actually slightly more defensive than Forretress but has a vital Fighting weakness. It also has better Sp.Def than Blissey's defence
Meaning walling on the physical side as well as a 714/306 Blissey can on the special side. Max/Max Foretress comes close (well...):
Attack Needed To OHKO
Blissey:
STABed B100 Fighting 1013
UnSTABed B100 "" 1523
STABed B120 Fire 1694
UnSTABed B70 Fire 4362
STABed B100 Rock 2033
Foretress:
STABed B100 Fighting 1367
UnSTABed B100 "" 2056
STABed B120 Fire 281
UnSTABed B70 Fire 729
STABed B100 Rock 1367
*More likely moves in bold
On their weaker sides with Max/Max Blissey versus Max/156 (Min) Foretress is a similar story with Fortress at about 2/3 of Blissey's defensive capacity.
Regigas is actually slightly more defensive than Forretress but has a vital Fighting weakness. It also has better Sp.Def than Blissey's defence
They still only reach just above 80% of Blissey's Sp. Defensive stats while taking a boatload of SE hits to boot. So yeah I agree but I'm saying Foretress is probably the best physical Wall option we have avaliable.
@Downshift: My opinion except I do use Blissey occasionally.
I hate blissey and refuse to use her, but really plays an important role in the metagame, and that is stopping overpowered special sweepers. Specs luke ftw!
Can't Magnezone technically murder Blissey just fine as well in that list mentioned? It doesn't necessarily need to explode to beat Blissey. If Blissey switches into a Metal Sound Magnezone, then it's totally screwed.
I'd definitely say that Steelix is the best physical walling option available right now. It only has 5 less base HP than Regirock with 75/200 physical defense, not able to get toxiced, 4x resistant to stealth rock, and a buttload more resistances than Regirock in general with 9 resistances and 2 immunities to come in on. Unlike Regirock, Steelix resists some of the most common attacks in the game, although he still retains the ground/fighting/water/fire weaknesses shared between the two. Steelix does a better job than Skarmory as well since it doesn't get countered hard by Magnezone/Probopass.
Forretress is a much better utility pokemon, even though Steelix is no slacker in that area, but IMO, Steelix does physical walling better, although Forretress is no slacker either.
I'd definitely say that Steelix is the best physical walling option available right now. It only has 5 less base HP than Regirock with 75/200 physical defense, not able to get toxiced, 4x resistant to stealth rock, and a buttload more resistances than Regirock in general with 9 resistances and 2 immunities to come in on. Unlike Regirock, Steelix resists some of the most common attacks in the game, although he still retains the ground/fighting/water/fire weaknesses shared between the two. Steelix does a better job than Skarmory as well since it doesn't get countered hard by Magnezone/Probopass.
Forretress is a much better utility pokemon, even though Steelix is no slacker in that area, but IMO, Steelix does physical walling better, although Forretress is no slacker either.
396 SpDef, not 361.
Steelix, Forretress, and Regigigas don't have a reliable recovery move.
Fire Blast has 8 PP and 85% accuracy. This is an average of 6.8 hits per game max. The odds of getting a critical hit in that time is about 35%, and that's ignoring the possibility of Protect on Blissey, or them switching to something like Suicune, Starmie, or Tentacruel.
Skarmory beats up Steelix hands down. It can do BOTH Stealth Rock and Spikes, it phazes better because it gets rid of Soundproof dudes, it has a more powerful attack, actual good recovery and it isn't weak to Earthquake and Close Combat. It can't get Toxiced either. I'd gladly trade the Spikes immunity for taking a little more from Stealth Rock.
I agree with this. Something you missed is the secret to its success: Ice Fang. As the best outrage resistor in the game (that is it takes the least damage) Ice Fang is excellent on it. Just 68 Attack EVs ensures a 2HKO on all the Dragons, even with Leftovers.
These days, I can't make a team without Steelix.
I do and Blissey does not like taking a FB to the face.
I might try Steelix.
To tell you the truth, I find it hard to believe only 43% of teams use Blissey lol. I'd think at least 75% lol.
Is Blissey game-breaking? No, IMO. It will resist all your special attacks, yes (though I have heard from Anti that a Sniper critical hit Specs Draco Meteor Kingdra can OHKO Blissey, so Blissey isn't even safe from all Special hits).
But, get in a fighting type, and its gone. In fact, forget fighting type, as that might be too obvious. Get in a mixed set. Mixmence for example. Most will probably expect a Draco Meteor, but you can give it a good ol' brick break.
Blissey is an amazing Pokemon, that cannot be denied. Colossal HP and Sp. Def.
It also has very few weaknesses, but...
Many Pokemon can carry its weakness (fighting moves/physical moves)! So its not unbeatable at all!
But, overall, I wouldn't go as far as game-breaking....many many Pokemon can counter it with ease.
Is Blissey game-breaking? No, IMO. It will resist all your special attacks, yes (though I have heard from Anti that a Sniper critical hit Specs Draco Meteor Kingdra can OHKO Blissey, so Blissey isn't even safe from all Special hits).
But, get in a fighting type, and its gone. In fact, forget fighting type, as that might be too obvious. Get in a mixed set. Mixmence for example. Most will probably expect a Draco Meteor, but you can give it a good ol' brick break.
Blissey is an amazing Pokemon, that cannot be denied. Colossal HP and Sp. Def.
It also has very few weaknesses, but...
Many Pokemon can carry its weakness (fighting moves/physical moves)! So its not unbeatable at all!
But, overall, I wouldn't go as far as game-breaking....many many Pokemon can counter it with ease.
You need 394 Attack to OHKO Blissey with Focus Punch.
Well, it doesn't have to be 1HK0'ed. It could be 2HK0'ed. And if Softboiled is an issue, you can use prediction skills (which I unfortunately lack) to power up (Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, w/e) on the turn it SoftBoils, so that by the next turn, its gone by w/e decent fighting move you got for it (Brick Break, etc...lets not even talk about Close Combat).
Thats just my opinion though.
Thats just my opinion though.
So you're saying that in a Bliss vs. Dragonite, Blissey would choose to heal itself to get owned by Outrage instead of crippling Dragonite with Ice Beam? And Brick Break from CB Mence does like 90% at most, it would do less from MixMence, and Blissey would OHKO it with Ice Beam.
Didn't think of that...
But with 10% HP left, whatever comes in can kill it.
But anyway.
But thats only in 3 cases (Dragonite, Garchomp, and Salamence).
What if its a different Pokemon that won't get 1HK0'ed with Ice Beam?
But with 10% HP left, whatever comes in can kill it.
But anyway.
But thats only in 3 cases (Dragonite, Garchomp, and Salamence).
What if its a different Pokemon that won't get 1HK0'ed with Ice Beam?
Final thought:
I classify Blissey as very amazing, very overused, and very useful.
But...not game-breaking..
I classify Blissey as very amazing, very overused, and very useful.
But...not game-breaking..
