Is Splitting the Pain Worth It?

[mtr]

Discussion on the merits and demerits of Pain Split in the context of Forretress and Rotom-A.

Although the changes wrought by the HGSS metagame update were definitely not on the level of those of Platinum, there are certainly new, somewhat useful moves that it brought, including Aqua Jet for Feraligatr, Bug Bite for Scizor, and others. But what interests me is the addition of Pain Split to Forretress' and Rotom-A's movepools.

Note: In the poll, Spikes, Rapid Spin, and Payback are assumed as a required part of the set.

Forry:
Forretress used to suffer somewhat as a Spikes because it had no means of recovery outside Rest, which in this metagame needs to be backed either by Aromatherapy or Sleep Talk. The addition of Pain Split lets it gain potentially up to ~40% of its health back in a turn in common battle conditions, which can make it easier to get up 3 layers of Spikes.

To maximize the potential of Pain Split, I suppose you need to go up against an opponent incapable of dealing over ~30% to you in a single turn. A Lead Metagross (barring Explosion) is a good example of this. You switch in on the Meteor Mash (~31% counting SR), and set up a layer of Spikes, taking the Earthquake for 25%. At this point, you are vulnerable to a 2HKO by Earthquake, so you use Pain Split, and you recover back to ~60-65% health, which lets you Spike or Spin further. In the event that your opponent switches out, you Pain Split a healthy foe anyways, recovering to about the same amount of health.

Does it negate the need for Wish support?
No one in their right mind would call Pain Split fully reliable. Handy, maybe, but not reliable. Ever hit an opponent low on HP? Because of concerns like these, I would argue that you still need Wish support from Blissey, although the pressure to Wishpass is eased somewhat.

Is it worth the opportunity cost?
The current standard for Forretress is
Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP/6 Def/252 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Payback
---
Forretress is quite a sturdy (no pun intended) Spiker, but it is quite difficult to get up all 5 layers and spin. So I'm arguing that Pain Split has a rather low opportunity cost, because Forretress rarely realizes the full potential presented by this set in common battle conditions without judicious Wish support, and even then, it is difficult. Pain Split can help ensure that quite a few layers go up. So I would put it over Toxic Spikes, which should be used on less sturdy Spikers because it takes less turns.

The role of Toxic Spikes can be relegated to another Pokemon. In OU, the only viable defensive* Toxic Spikers are Tentacruel and arguably Nidoqueen (sorry, Drapion). The only viable defensive Spikers are Skarmory and Forretress, and it is generally considered inadvisable to have both of them on the same stall team. Nidoqueen can counter Lucario and phaze, while Tentacruel can counter Infernape and Heatran (IMO, Haze as a means to stall out Crocune with Blissey to help is underrated, but let's not go there).

*Yeah, this is mainly about stall teams. On offensive teams, use Roserade/Smeargle/Froslass.

I haven't tested Pain Split on Rotom, but I guess it would work a lot like it did on Dusknoir. Not sure about how useful it is, because it's been a while since I used poor Dusky.

So what do you think about Pain Split? Useful? Gimmicky? Has mtr12 lost his marbles?

 

[Lee]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/pain_split (for reference sake)

I'm not a big fan of Pain Split; it's far too unreliable and can be quite dangerous if your opponent sees it coming - it not only offers a free switch to a counter but it also allows you to switch in a severely injured Pokemon and gain a little bit of health back.

Another problem is that the Pokemon we're focusing on here (Forry and Rotom) have quite the bad case of 4 moveslot syndrome already. Forry has to pick from Stealth Rock/Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Rapid Spin/Gyro Ball/Earthquake/Payback/Explosion/Screens and Rotom has a boatload of useful moves too...Electric attack/Shadow Ball/forme move/Will-o-wisp/Thunder Wave/Screens/Trick etc. I would think long and hard before I gave up an invaluable moveslot for a move with the shortcomings of Pain Split.

Rotom could get some decent use out of it though if the opponent is too happy to go throwing Blissey at him everytime. It's almost assured to fully heal him provided Blissey is at around 40% health or more.

 

[xBLUEx]

I think that Pain Split can prove to be useful. Rest is good with a Chesto Berry but fails if you want to use it again. With Pain Split, like you said above, Forretress benefits from switch-ins. It can also be used continuously unlike Rest, is better at stalling out Pokemon than Rest and give more turns to Forretress to set up Spikes.

 

[Witnessed]

Well, Pain Split is just to unreliable. My opinions here:

Rotom
Rotom already has a good movepool, both Offensive and supporting. Picking between it's special move, it's electric STAB, ghost STAB and Hidden Power (or even Charge Beam, although thats STAB), it's pretty hard. On the support side, it can dual screen or spread status. Although it lacks a reliable recovery move, it can ResTalk very well, and can even revenge kill to an extent.

Forretress
It's in the same boat as Rotom: No reliable recovery, but an excellent support movepool really bumps this thing up. The ability to Rapid Spin and set down all three forms of entry hazards, as well as Explode and have a decent attack stat (90 iirc). Plus it's steel typing nets it many handy resistances.

 

[twash]

The problem with Pain Split to me is how useless it is at certain points in a game. As soon as you start weakening the opposing team, Pain Split has far less of a utility because they can use it to heal their pokemon, whilst weakening yours. But then, at the start of the game, when everything is near full HP, it may be more useful if you take a big chunk of damage. On defensive teams, the opponent is often low HP due to entry hazard damage. This means you can't utilize your "healing" move to help you defend. But of course, it helps early game when you are setting up your entry hazards.

Another problem with Pain Split is the pokemon who can actually use the move. Many of the pokemon with Pain Split simply learn better recovery moves: Starmie has Recover, Cradily has Recover, Porygon2 has Recover, and so on. Forretress can probably make use of it moreso than other pokemon, though. Something really nice about Pain Split Forretress is that it can strip away a lot of Rotom-A's HP with more ease.

I am interested to see how an offensive Pain Split user would work out. Blissey will hate non-Explosion Life Orb Gengar healing itself up with ease, and depleting Blissey's HP. It would also mean Gengar can hurt switch-ins like Scarf Heatran or Spiritomb heavily with lessened prediction when at low HP!

edit: I know I didn't really focus too much on Forretress and Rotom-A...I just spoke about Pain Split in general really. The last bit just fits this thread to an extent!

 

[mtr]

Is it worth testing then? Setting Gengar to 0 HP IV's and using Pain Split in the slot over Explosion?

Also, in Ubers, where everyone's base HP is pretty high, it might be somewhat more useful. It would help defeat Giratina-O's switching in. But in Ubers, Forry is the only viable Spiker, Toxic Spiker, and Spinner, and I wouldn't give any of that up on a stall team.

All in all, from an economical perspective, the move is probably best on Dusknoir (or Sucknoir, as some call it) simply because there's not much it can do otherwise, so the opportunity cost is quite low. In some time, it might be UU, then BL anyways.

 

[Flashstorm1]

Although I have yet to test Pain Split Forretress myself, I just don't see the move being very reliable. My main concern is that any smart opponent can easily play around it and switch in an already weakened Pokémon to make Pain Split useless. I prefer Rest on Rotom-A as well because it gives it more (ensured) durability than Pain Split ever would.

 

[RegalStar]

Nobody should ever lower HP for the sake of making pain split does more damage. Pain Split is used mainly to heal and not to hurt, and well... if you have a lot of HP you shouldn't be using Pain Split to begin with, and if you have less HP (Dusknoir comes to mind) it's not worth giving up the significant increase in bulk by investing in HP just so Pain Split can do a bit more damage.

 

[itsbigfoot]

Although I have yet to test Pain Split Forretress myself, I just don't see the move being very reliable. My main concern is that any smart opponent can easily play around it and switch in an already weakened Pokémon to make Pain Split useless. I prefer Rest on Rotom-A as well because it gives it more (ensured) durability than Pain Split ever would.

but at the beginning of the game switching to something weaker isn't much of an option, and luckily that's also the best time to set up spikes

 

[Random Pizzaman]

Eh, Pain Split is an ok move in my opinion, but it's better on low base HP ghost types than Foretress, although it'll have use over rest. Personally, I think Pain SPlit is a great move to sort of stall out a Pokemon that doesnt hit very hard for a few turns for a few turns.

 

[pkmn1000]

Forry is too slow and is too easily Ohko'ed by the best attacks in the game(special fire) to make good use of PS especially with all the random hp fires directed at scizor.

 

[blasphemy1]

On Rotom-A I will definitely be using this move. One of my biggest issues with Rotom is the lack of a recovery move outside rest and having a huge problem with Toxic. Pain Split helps with both of these, and allows me to run an extra support move over the slot where Sleep Talk would have been. Plus, it makes bringing down Tyranitar easier.

 

[mtr]

Yeah, having to use both Rest and Sleep Talk isn't fun, so Pain Split definitely helps there.

For all the Ubers fellows: this new move help in beating Giratina-O, but is it worth losing Spikes or Toxic Spikes?

 

[Colonel M]

I dunno. Using the set you proposed as an example, I never imagine Forretress carrying more than one set-up attack (Stealth Rock, Spikes, or Toxic). It gives him a marginal amount of durability, but probably not up-to-snuff as far as being a Physical Wall. Rotom-A? Yeah, his major flaw is that movepool syndromne but magnified. Probably not a bad idea though since Pain Split can easily take over Rest and Sleep Talk.

Not the greatest, but not the worst either. These two can se Pain Split alright.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

i think the move at the very least brings forretress closer to skarmory in terms of pure spiking. spikes/rapid spin/pain split/gyro ball or payback is probably what i'd run. wish is quite difficult to properly execute in dpp so i'd say any form of recovery outside of rest is better than none.

 

[Earthworm]

For the purposes I use Forretress for, I doubt that Pain Split will go over any of my Forretress' moves. I might even use Protect or something if I wanted recovery, but that has a few disadvantages as well (Magnezone for example!).

I think Payback is somewhat replaceable as well, given that the ghosts Payback hits get screwed over by Pain Split anyway due to them themselves not having any good recovery moves. I'll probably try it out!

edit: After thinking about it more, the ghosts you will want to hit with Pain Split will still be able to recover if you don't have Payback anyway so I'm pretty sure Payback is better! I might not try it after all.

 

[Batl Skard]

Pain Split

Hmm...has it's inevitable problems, but I hope that it doesn't catch on for those who DO use it. If people see it coming, then they will be able to avoid it with ease. If not, as with my experimentation with Dusk, this will turn into a very long lasting pokemon. (Assuming Forry) Forretress has more then enough to do with spikes and spinning. It needs some way to gain back health, and if used soon, can allow healing pretty quickly. I do not think it will lose much this way, as some teams (such as ones with Blissey) like to have Twave anyway. It might lose it's kick once spikes and spinning are over, however, so hopefully Payback's going to pay off.

A move such as recover would be gold, but Forretress should be able to do it's job indefinitly now. Zone still screams problems though.

 

[Marzbar]

Another problem is that the Pokemon we're focusing on here (Forry and Rotom) have quite the bad case of 4 moveslot syndrome already. Forry has to pick from Stealth Rock/Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Rapid Spin/Gyro Ball/Earthquake/Payback/Explosion/Screens

I would think long and hard before I gave up an invaluable moveslot for a move with the shortcomings of Pain Split.

This.

Why would you run Pain Split over Explosion anyway? Use Forry to lay one set of spikes and spin, or lay two sets of spikes, then Explode or fire off some Gyro Balls. None of this healing nonsense.

 

[Whoopee!]

Have to agree with Lee and mazbar on forry. you lay some spikes, spin away some, and then it takes something down with it on the way out. then you bring your spin blocker out. no healing nonsense, as maz said.

i don't know, maybe because we haven't tried it out yet. but despite my objections i will still test it out when i have the chance (i battle as gk777 in smog university server, see ya there forry).

as for rotom-a, i think pain split can go over restalk anyday. decent speed allows it to split before the opponent's move, which is good in a lot of situations where rotom already has low hp left.

BUT THEN. a spin blocker exists to block rapid spin, for the most part. ATM, i don't see much difference between an awake rotom-a that can pain split and a restalking rotom-a that has a 66% chance to do the same things painsplit rotom can do in sleep mode

 

[mtr]

This.

Why would you run Pain Split over Explosion anyway? Use Forry to lay one set of spikes and spin, or lay two sets of spikes, then Explode or fire off some Gyro Balls. None of this healing nonsense.

The problem is that every team has a Forry counter with a Fire move or whatever, so you might have to leave the field instantly after one layer without Exploding, hoping to come back later.

Forretress is supposed to be a supporting Pokemon throughout the match. I don't think its supposed to be played like a suicide Spiker, though Explosion can be useful if your Gyara check ends up in a body bag or whatever. At least for me, I only ever use Explosion as a last resort. Since I like me Forry to come in lots of times to get up lots of layers, healing is helpful.

On another note, why don't we see Screens being used on Forry? Bronzong is better at Dual Screening, but a quick Light Screen or Reflect here and there can help a stall team wall threats better, at least temporarily.

 

[iKitsune]

Forretress role unlike other members on stall teams whose role is to wall specific threats is to sit there and get as many entry hazards up as possible while spinning away the opponents. The appeal of using Forretress is that it can perform the most useful support tasks for a stall team without having to spread the options through other Pokemon which are better equipped to wall the multitude of threats stall faces. Spreading these support moves around the team reduces its overall ability to wall and that is why I and I'm sure many other stall players choose to just load all the moves onto Forretress and call it a day making sure they play conservatively throughout the match to keep it alive.

The other thing to mention is that to fulfill its role on a stall team that of "Ultimate Supporter" it needs all those moves so there is just no way it can drop a move. There is no real need to keep forry alive other than to support which while crucial only take 2-3 moves to accomplish when Forretress is threatened it does not need defense as it can merely use the resistances of the walls on its team. If one wants to keep their Forretress alive wish support is probably more reliable in any case and likely the preferred method to do so.

 

[blasphemy1]

Have to agree with Lee and mazbar on forry. you lay some spikes, spin away some, and then it takes something down with it on the way out. then you bring your spin blocker out. no healing nonsense, as maz said.

i don't know, maybe because we haven't tried it out yet. but despite my objections i will still test it out when i have the chance (i battle as gk777 in smog university server, see ya there forry).

as for rotom-a, i think pain split can go over restalk anyday. decent speed allows it to split before the opponent's move, which is good in a lot of situations where rotom already has low hp left.

BUT THEN. a spin blocker exists to block rapid spin, for the most part. ATM, i don't see much difference between an awake rotom-a that can pain split and a restalking rotom-a that has a 66% chance to do the same things painsplit rotom can do in sleep mode

If you want a pure spin-blocker, go use Dusknoir or Spiritomb, as in theory they can do the role better(only spinner that Rotom-A does better against is Donphan). Teams use Rotom-A in order to counter steel types effectively, spread status, maybe set up a screen, etc. His role isn't as simple as anti-spinner. Rotom has a nice set of resistances that allow him to switch in, but as a spin blocker, these don't matter nearly as much since you will likely switch into Rapid Spin. Taking attacks from common spinners like Forretress, Starmie, and Donphan help, but Spiritomb and Dusknoir do a better job against Starmie and Forretress, who are far more common than Donphan.

The point is Pain Split opens up another supporting option, which is huge for a support pokemon like Rotom-A. On Forry, I doubt it will be used much, since stall teams always keep that thing alive as best as they can.

 

[13Random37]

i think, forrys hp are way to high to make real use of pain split.
rest and a cleric provides status and 100% healing, while not only being able to restore health against an opponent with more hp than you.
Toxic spikes is also better than pain split for me, because the move is just great. having forry on the same team with cruel als seems weird for me.
sacrifinga move slot (forry's movepool is just amazing) isn't worth imo

 

[Azule]

-stops lurking-

I wanted to comment on this topic.
Firstly; I noticed that Rotom-A doesnt have pain split in it's movepool on Shoddy anyway, but yeah.

Rotom-A could replace Rest/Sleep Talk with Pain Split, allowing you to run an extra supporting move, and if it runs 0 HP IV's, as we can do on Shoddy, it would allow Rotom to heal itself more often that not. I dont think it has much use on the attacking/sweeping Rotom, as you would need to remove one of its STAB's; Trick and the other move which is valuable for your team.
In most cases, Trick would be the choice for the player who dislikes predicting, but removing one of it's STAB's if its attention move such as hidden Power provides the coverage it needs anyway, making the STAB kinda uneeded, it could be replaced in that case.


However, on Forretress, Pain Split would be nothing more than a gimmick in most cases, and wouldn't be overly useful for Ladder matches, but if it's just one match, say in a competition, having the surprise with Pain Split could buy you the extra time you needed to get that last layer of spikes up, and possibly win you the match.

Just my two cents on the matter

 

[blasphemy1]

-stops lurking-

I wanted to comment on this topic.
Firstly; I noticed that Rotom-A doesnt have pain split in it's movepool on Shoddy anyway, but yeah.

Rotom-A could replace Rest/Sleep Talk with Pain Split, allowing you to run an extra supporting move, and if it runs 0 HP IV's, as we can do on Shoddy, it would allow Rotom to heal itself more often that not. I dont think it has much use on the attacking/sweeping Rotom, as you would need to remove one of its STAB's; Trick and the other move which is valuable for your team.
In most cases, Trick would be the choice for the player who dislikes predicting, but removing one of it's STAB's if its attention move such as hidden Power provides the coverage it needs anyway, making the STAB kinda uneeded, it could be replaced in that case.


However, on Forretress, Pain Split would be nothing more than a gimmick in most cases, and wouldn't be overly useful for Ladder matches, but if it's just one match, say in a competition, having the surprise with Pain Split could buy you the extra time you needed to get that last layer of spikes up, and possibly win you the match.

Just my two cents on the matter

In general, Rotom's HP will be low enough, even with investment, to heal back some health. It is also not recommended to lower a defensive pokemon's HP, especially one with such a low base HP stat(and above-average defenses). Pain Split should be run on his standard tanking set, as otherwise you are making him much less durable.