It's offical, the new formes DON'T work on wifi or union room.

STAB Air Slash. Wooo. On both battling fields, btw (free, and auto-level).

Unown Lord: Game Freak had Giratina, Shaymin and Rotoms planned since BEFORE D/P release. If that was the problem ("what the shit, Land Shaymin evaded my Rhyperior's Earthquake?"), they could have just, well, programmed Skymin's sprite and typing in D/P, don't you agree?

By the way, I really don't see any problem with this, and I know I wouldn't if I were an eight year old. I could live with Dynamicpunch Wooper, I would survive (and like) seeing Shaymin avoiding Earthquakes.

EDIT: Shit, I forgot to check Skymin on a Diamond vs Diamond battle >_> But I need to leave now, so I'll check it tomorrow. I think Air Slash won't have STAB, but who knows.
 
Arael said:
Unown Lord: Game Freak had Giratina, Shaymin and Rotoms planned since BEFORE D/P release. If that was the problem ("what the shit, Land Shaymin evaded my Rhyperior's Earthquake?"), they could have just, well, programmed Skymin's sprite and typing in D/P, don't you agree?
Click to expand...
Not having their full data in Diamond and Pearl made it possible to keep their existence a surprise for nearly two years. None of the hackers seemed to have been aware of their presence in the .pkm file, but we have all known about Arceus since the games' release; consequently, the alternate forms are being used to promote a new game, whereas Arceus will most likely not be marketed in such a fashion.

At any rate, the more important point is the one involving the uniqueness of Origin Forme and the Rotom forms. There are only meant to be one of each per a game (at the same time). The trading restrictions were set in order to ensure that; Wi-Fi and Union Room battles (and Sky Forme) ended up paying the price.

Don't get me wrong: They could have circumvented the problem. But they did purposely program the game to revert the forms upon entering Wi-Fi Club and Union Room; it is wrong to treat it as though it were a glitch.
 
As Pokebeach's webmaster posted once, Junichi Masuda looked like pretty surprised when he asked about the "mysterious forms". He didn't expect an American would know about them. If he thinks we would not know about something made public (CoroCoro), why would he and the developers hope people would hack the game and discover the new Shaymin? And why would he care, anyway? The eight year old buying the game doesn't know about it anyways. It doesn't seem pretty logical.

It could at least be like Deoxys in GBA; for D/P, the new sprite would only appear during Wi-fi battles; pretty much like Normal Deoxys only appearing in FR/LG during a Link Battle (I know there are some differences, but still).

I should test Giratina later, by the way.
 
At any rate, the more important point is the one involving the uniqueness of Origin Forme and the Rotom forms. There are all only meant to be one of each per a game (at the same time). The trading restrictions were set in order to ensure that; Wi-Fi and Union Room battles (and Sky Forme) ended up paying the price.
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Or..you know, they could've done it to 'punish' cloning

Someone try Itemless O-Tina in D/P. I suspect that upon battling Platinum, it will revert back into Another Forme in mid battle, but who knows?

(EDIT: Go MWL!)
 
So, lets get this straight...

Can we or can't we use any forme of Rotom/Giratina/Shaymin on WiFi battling Platinum v. Platinum? And if we do Platinum v. Diamond/Pearl, and say I am using a Cut Rotom. Will it show up in D/P as regular Rotom, but still preserve its base stats in battle?
 
Jibaku said:
Or..you know, they could've done it to 'punish' cloning

Someone try Itemless O-Tina in D/P. I suspect that upon battling Platinum, it will revert back into Another Forme in mid battle, but who knows?

(EDIT: Go MWL!)
Click to expand...

Origin Giratina does not revert to regular form in D/P. The person with platinum will see origin giratina, but the person using it in D/P see's the regular giratina.

Technically:
The 0x40 value of the pokemon file being that of origin giratina on D/P makes the person with platinum see origin giratina. However, since D/P is not programmed to show a different sprite when the 0x40 value is non-zero, for giratina, the person using it will see the regular giratina.

Also, it seems that to punish glitches, the appliances for rotom do not appear until you activate the event. This is as opposed to when you could use it to go get shaymin and Darkrai.
 
RaichuGuardian said:
So, lets get this straight...

Can we or can't we use any forme of Rotom/Giratina/Shaymin on WiFi battling Platinum v. Platinum? And if we do Platinum v. Diamond/Pearl, and say I am using a Cut Rotom. Will it show up in D/P as regular Rotom, but still preserve its base stats in battle?
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Well, from all the info I've gathered... You cannot even use Cut rotom in wifi to begin with, you can only use regular rotom. You can't use any of the new Rotom/Giratina/Shaymin in wifi.
 
Also, it seems that to punish glitches, the appliances for rotom do not appear until you activate the event. This is as opposed to when you could use it to go get shaymin and Darkrai.
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But the Shaymin and Giratina (well he's not even one) event already happened though.

Interesting. Leftovers Levitating O-Tina in D/P

Although these are mostly useless stuff, these are really interesting and provides an insight into how stuff are programmed. Now if only someone can try finding out if there are more formes yet to be discovered...

For the WiFi bit it appears that no one has gotten it to work. I say we wait for Nintendo's word on it
He didn't. When the members on his forum asked him if the alternate forms could be used in battles, he replied that they could without clarifying which kind of battle he meant. He also locked the thread pertaining to the subject because he was afraid of being proven wrong.
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I was the one who asked
 
Hm.... I think I have a theory.

I think Platinum works with the same WiFi database/server as D/P. Right now in the U.S., we're still only playing D/P. We don't have Platinum. To prevent a U.S. (or the rest of the world) player from seeing these new forms, they currently prevented use of these new forms. Note that it reverts RIGHT OUT of the WiFi room. It could be the WiFi database/server rejecting the new form for now.

I could be missing out from other pieces of data, like Platinum and D/P working in seperate databases/servers. It does sound like a lame theory after I read it again, so please criticize. =)
 
Two words, shress: Union Room.


Now, I've played a little with Skymin in Diamond, and Dugtrio trapped it with Arena Trap; This means that, for Diamond, ANY Shaymin is Land Form. The only difference for it is Serene Grace.

...BUT, according to my theory, if you trade (or "could" trade) a Skymin from Platinum to Diamond, it would keep Skymin's stats; once you leveled-up it, it would get a fuckload of Defense and lose Sp. Atk and Speed. No pokémon is meant to lose points when getting a level. So, we can assume that, while they DID programmed Diamond to "accept" Skymin, they did a poor job... Mostly probably because it wasn't meant to get Skymin.


My other idea is that they wanted to allow Skymin to be traded to Diamond, but ONLY as Land Shaymin. I've said that trying Skymin from Diamond to Platinum doesn't work, because the game CHANGES Shaymin's form to Land, before trading. If it were only the stats, I could say they have just been recalculated, but the game actually changes its trait to Natural Cure (Land's). This means that, somehow, Diamond DETECTED that it was communicating with Platinum, or something, and changed its form (probably because Platinum was (badly? who knows) programmed to NOT accept Skymin while in Wi-Fi/Union Room in any situation whatsoever). I'd need to test a little more, but if Diamond could do that, why didn't they just did the same thing for Platinum? That way, you'd be able to get into Wi-Fi/Union Room with Skymin, but once you tried to trade it with Diamond, it'd change its form to Land and THEN, trade.


PS: Just tested; sending Shaymin to other Diamond does NOT change anything; it's still Skymin. So, as we can see, the problem is with Platinum and Platinum only. Either Platinum or Diamond, in that trade, set up that Shaymin would need to change to Land Form, but who did it? Well, it doesn't really matter; what really counts is that this proves the games CAN detect who it's trading/battling with; so, they could have programmed the alt forms a little better in Platinum. Like, "if the game I'm trading with is Diamond or Pearl, I must change pokémon #479, #487 and #492 to first form". It wouldn't be that difficult.

But noooo, now, we have three Shaymins in 4th Gen, instead of two. At least the 100 Base Skymin would not be Uber? Whatever...
 
Arael said:
Two words, shress: Union Room.


Now, I've played a little with Skymin in Diamond, and Dugtrio trapped it with Arena Trap; This means that, for Diamond, ANY Shaymin is Land Form. The only difference for it is Serene Grace.

...BUT, according to my theory, if you trade (or "could" trade) a Skymin from Platinum to Diamond, it would keep Skymin's stats; once you leveled-up it, it would get a fuckload of Defense and lose Sp. Atk and Speed. No pokémon is meant to lose points when getting a level. So, we can assume that, while they DID programmed Diamond to "accept" Skymin, they did a poor job... Mostly probably because it wasn't meant to get Skymin.


My other idea is that they wanted to allow Skymin to be traded to Diamond, but ONLY as Land Shaymin. I've said that trying Skymin from Diamond to Platinum doesn't work, because the game CHANGES Shaymin's form to Land, before trading. If it were only the stats, I could say they have just been recalculated, but the game actually changes its trait to Natural Cure (Land's). This means that, somehow, Diamond DETECTED that it was communicating with Platinum, or something, and changed its form (probably because Platinum was (badly? who knows) programmed to NOT accept Skymin while in Wi-Fi/Union Room). I'd need to test a little more, but if Diamond could do that, why didn't they just did the same thing for Platinum? That way, you'd be able to get into Wi-Fi/Union Room with Skymin, but once you tried to trade it with Diamond, it'd change its form to Land and THEN, trade.


PS: Just tested; sending Shaymin to other Diamond does NOT change anything; it's still Skymin. So, as we can see, the problem is with Platinum and Platinum only.
Click to expand...

So you traded Skymin to Diamond, and which characteristics did it have?
 
Skymin was put in Diamond using Pokésav (before you say anything, it doesn't put any of my testing in question), and then, it was traded to another Diamond via Wi-Fi. It didn't change AT ALL. When I tried to trade it to Platinum, it was reverted to Land Form and THEN, it was sent. This means the games can detect who they're trading with somehow; so, the "oh no Skymin can't be traded to D/P it would be nonsense" argument is flawed, as they DID had the tools to avoid it without banning them from Wi-Fi/Union Room. They might have done something wrong, or have just forgotten they had a way better, and less drastic, option.
 
Arael said:
Skymin was put in Diamond using Pokésav (before you say anything, it doesn't put any of my testing in question), and then, it was traded to another Diamond via Wi-Fi. It didn't change AT ALL. When I tried to trade it to Platinum, it was reverted to Land Form and THEN, it was sent. This means the games can detect who they're trading with somehow; so, the "oh no Skymin can't be traded to D/P it would be nonsense" argument is flawed, as they DID had the tools to avoid it without banning them from Wi-Fi/Union Room. They might have done something wrong, or have just forgotten they had a way better, and less drastic, option.
Click to expand...

Honsetly, I have a real hard time believing that it was programmed into D/P at all. I wasn't here when they were released, but i would think that the base stats would have been ripped from the rom.
 
I don't think the base stats are programmed into the game, which is why the stats reverted upon autoleveling
 
shress said:
Hm.... I think I have a theory.

I think Platinum works with the same WiFi database/server as D/P. Right now in the U.S., we're still only playing D/P. We don't have Platinum. To prevent a U.S. (or the rest of the world) player from seeing these new forms, they currently prevented use of these new forms. Note that it reverts RIGHT OUT of the WiFi room. It could be the WiFi database/server rejecting the new form for now.

I could be missing out from other pieces of data, like Platinum and D/P working in seperate databases/servers. It does sound like a lame theory after I read it again, so please criticize. =)
Click to expand...

If you have a japanese game, It will connect to the japanese servers. Same for every region.
 
Yes, Shaymin's base stats were ripped from the rom; and that's the point.

There's no 127 Skymin in Diamond. When you use Pokésav to export a Skymin from Platinum and load it on your Diamond'd party, it keeps Skymin's stats. HOWEVER, once you allow the game to recalculate its stats (Leveling Up, putting it in box), it turns back to a Base 100 pokémon. But its forme isn't changed. The game, as always, shows it as a Land Shaymin (as Skymin isn't programmed in D/P), but it is a Skymin (as D/P have been programmed to at least "accept" Skymin). So, you can go out and play with it. If you go ingame, or against other D/P, it's gonna be a Base 100, Serene Grace, pure-Grass Shaymin. But, once you battle against a Platinum, it's gonna be a Base 100, Serene Grace, Grass/Flying Shaymin.

And, strangely enough, if you send a Skymin from Diamond to another Diamond, the games don't change a thing. It's still a Skymin disguised as Land Shaymin. However, once you send it to Platinum, it's going to change back to Land Shaymin (getting Natural Cure, Base 100 stats, etc etc); I don't know when exactly it's "decided" (if it's before or after it's sent), but in the end, Platinum can't have a Skymin on Wi-Fi.

Do you feel the drama? If there isn't any compatibility issues involving Skymin being traded/faced in battle, if the games can detect it's a damn Platinum-Diamond communication, and that a Sky Shaymin is coming (or being sent), why couldn't they program it in such a way Platinum, once it tries to trade it to a D/P (and this would happen only with Platinum-D/P; Platinum-Platinum would be safe), would change its form to Land, so we wouldn't have anything strange in D/P like the recalculated stats? This is the only problem we'd really have if Diamond could trade with Platinum for a Skymin; once you leveled it up, you'd get a lot of defenses and lose Sp. Atk and Speed (mine gained 30+ Defenses, and +-20 Speed (yeah, it showed "+-20 Speed")).

Instead of doing such a easier coding, they prefferred the more drastic option; disallowing Platinum (and only Platinum...) of playing with Sky Shaymin in Wi-Fi/Union Room at all. I do think it's a too drastic option to have been willingly added by the developers, so that's why I think it's gonna be fixed somehow, someday in the near future, but... Better not have my hopes too high.


The good thing is that we can have a 100/100/100/100/100/100 Sky Shaymin on Extended Clause, like Arceus :D


EDIT: Shit, I still haven't tested O-Tina. Well, we all know that it's 101% compatible too anyways...
 
Arael said:
Yes, Shaymin's base stats were ripped from the rom; and that's the point.

There's no 127 Skymin in Diamond. When you use Pokésav to export a Skymin from Platinum and load it on your Diamond'd party, it keeps Skymin's stats. HOWEVER, once you allow the game to recalculate its stats (Leveling Up, putting it in box), it turns back to a Base 100 pokémon. But its forme isn't changed. The game, as always, shows it as a Land Shaymin (as Skymin isn't programmed in D/P), but it is a Skymin (as D/P have been programmed to at least "accept" Skymin). So, you can go out and play with it. If you go ingame, or against other D/P, it's gonna be a Base 100, Serene Grace, pure-Grass Shaymin. But, once you battle against a Platinum, it's gonna be a Base 100, Serene Grace, Grass/Flying Shaymin.

And, strangely enough, if you send a Skymin from Diamond to another Diamond, the games don't change a thing. It's still a Skymin disguised as Land Shaymin. However, once you send it to Platinum, it's going to change back to Land Shaymin (getting Natural Cure, Base 100 stats, etc etc); I don't know when exactly it's "decided" (if it's before or after it's sent), but in the end, Platinum can't have a Skymin on Wi-Fi.

Do you feel the drama? If there isn't any compatibility issues involving Skymin being traded/faced in battle, if the games can detect it's a damn Platinum-Diamond communication, and that a Sky Shaymin is coming (or being sent), why couldn't they program it in such a way Platinum, once it tries to trade it to a D/P (and this would happen only with Platinum-D/P; Platinum-Platinum would be safe), would change its form to Land, so we wouldn't have anything strange in D/P like the recalculated stats? This is the only problem we'd really have if Diamond could trade with Platinum for a Skymin; once you leveled it up, you'd get a lot of defenses and lose Sp. Atk and Speed (mine gained 30+ Defenses, and +-20 Speed (yeah, it showed "+-20 Speed")).

Instead of doing such a easier coding, they prefferred the more drastic option; disallowing Platinum (and only Platinum...) of playing with Sky Shaymin in Wi-Fi/Union Room at all. I do think it's a too drastic option to have been willingly added by the developers, so that's why I think it's gonna be fixed somehow, someday in the near future, but... Better not have my hopes too high.


The good thing is that we can have a 100/100/100/100/100/100 Sky Shaymin on Extended Clause, like Arceus :D


EDIT: Shit, I still haven't tested O-Tina. Well, we all know that it's 101% compatible too anyways...
Click to expand...

OK, i understand now.

Quick Giratina question you may/may not be able to answer

Orgin Fome Giratina is holding Platinum Orb.
Other Pokemon uses Trick/Knock Off.
What happens in each situation? (Would be easy to test at the Pachirsu twins)
 
I've been wondering about a couple of things in this thread. First, what exactly is so bad about not being able to trade Skymin to another Platinum? Couldn't its new home game transform it?

Second, flat 100 Skymin sounds like exploiting an external device to produce strange results, like the incoming wall of text.

I've messed around with an AR on Colosseum (never saved any of that, and the AR disc broke) and whenever ANY Pokemon becomes something different (once turned starter Espeon into a Deoxys) the stats remain the same until they're recalculated (Espeoxys lost defenses upon level-up). The only difference I can see is that in this case, both Pokemon are Shaymin and that Espeoxys got Pressure as soon as it became a Deoxys, but you're still hacking (in my case, AR, in this case, Pokesav) to get a Pokemon with stats it shouldn't have. I mean, if someone hacked a Pokemon to have different base stats (possible?) and got stats calculated to that, if they traded it to another game (which would likely revert base stats back to normal) it'd probably keep those stats until a recalculation, at which point the new game will be all like "hey, something with such-and-such base stat should have such-and-such stat" and fix it, much like recalculating "DP Skymin".

Just saying that all-100s Skymin doesn't exactly seem like a legitimate Pokemon. I'm not trying to stir things up, I just want to know if there's problems with my logic.

Also, is it just that Shaymin can't transform if frozen, or would freezing it have some wacky effect? Not that it'd live through an Ice attack to get frozen by.
 
MegaMewtwo said:
I've been wondering about a couple of things in this thread. First, what exactly is so bad about not being able to trade Skymin to another Platinum? Couldn't its new home game transform it?

Second, flat 100 Skymin sounds like exploiting an external device to produce strange results, like the incoming wall of text.

I've messed around with an AR on Colosseum (never saved any of that, and the AR disc broke) and whenever ANY Pokemon becomes something different (once turned starter Espeon into a Deoxys) the stats remain the same until they're recalculated (Espeoxys lost defenses upon level-up). The only difference I can see is that in this case, both Pokemon are Shaymin and that Espeoxys got Pressure as soon as it became a Deoxys, but you're still hacking (in my case, AR, in this case, Pokesav) to get a Pokemon with stats it shouldn't have. I mean, if someone hacked a Pokemon to have different base stats (possible?) and got stats calculated to that, if they traded it to another game (which would likely revert base stats back to normal) it'd probably keep those stats until a recalculation, at which point the new game will be all like "hey, something with such-and-such base stat should have such-and-such stat" and fix it, much like recalculating "DP Skymin".

Just saying that all-100s Skymin doesn't exactly seem like a legitimate Pokemon. I'm not trying to stir things up, I just want to know if there's problems with my logic.

Also, is it just that Shaymin can't transform if frozen, or would freezing it have some wacky effect? Not that it'd live through an Ice attack to get frozen by.
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You are absolutely right. The new alternate forms being in D/P are not legit pokemon. They are not even legal pokemon. (See http://www.pokesav.org/main/legitimacy-definitions) They could have been but Nintendo decided against it. I merely brought this up because I thought it was interesting that they could have allowed the new alternate forms to be in D/P.
 
MegaMewtwo said:
I've been wondering about a couple of things in this thread. First, what exactly is so bad about not being able to trade Skymin to another Platinum? Couldn't its new home game transform it?

Second, flat 100 Skymin sounds like exploiting an external device to produce strange results, like the incoming wall of text.

I've messed around with an AR on Colosseum (never saved any of that, and the AR disc broke) and whenever ANY Pokemon becomes something different (once turned starter Espeon into a Deoxys) the stats remain the same until they're recalculated (Espeoxys lost defenses upon level-up). The only difference I can see is that in this case, both Pokemon are Shaymin and that Espeoxys got Pressure as soon as it became a Deoxys, but you're still hacking (in my case, AR, in this case, Pokesav) to get a Pokemon with stats it shouldn't have. I mean, if someone hacked a Pokemon to have different base stats (possible?) and got stats calculated to that, if they traded it to another game (which would likely revert base stats back to normal) it'd probably keep those stats until a recalculation, at which point the new game will be all like "hey, something with such-and-such base stat should have such-and-such stat" and fix it, much like recalculating "DP Skymin".

Just saying that all-100s Skymin doesn't exactly seem like a legitimate Pokemon. I'm not trying to stir things up, I just want to know if there's problems with my logic.

Also, is it just that Shaymin can't transform if frozen, or would freezing it have some wacky effect? Not that it'd live through an Ice attack to get frozen by.
Click to expand...

Well, from what I'm understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong) Arael used Pokesav to add Skymin to the Party will in the Union Room, getting around the enforced restriction of the game. Ergo, without PokeSav (if im saying this right) it is impossible to do this. Maybe, Nintendo was testing and they got these same results and didn't like them, so instead of checking Platinum to Platinum games, which would have allowed it to work in the Union Room or on Wi-Fi, they made it so they couldn't be taken into the Union Room/Wi-Fi.

And yeah, that leaves a few question to be asked before pokemon are implemented on Shoddy (These are just general Platinum questions that need, I think, answers before implementing into Shoddy)

1) Knock Off on Origintina?
2) Trick/Covet/Snatch on Origintina? ( I thought I heard somewhere only Giratina can hold the platinum orb)
3) Freezing a skymin? (low level blissey w/ Serene Grace using Ice Beam on High Level Skymin)
4) What happens when you remove a special move from Rotom? (i.e. Can you have a Heat Rotom that does not know Overheat, I see it as a way of playing mindgames with people)
 
RB Golbat said:
Well, from what I'm understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong) Arael used Pokesav to add Skymin to the Party will in the Union Room, getting around the enforced restriction of the game. Ergo, without PokeSav (if im saying this right) it is impossible to do this. Maybe, Nintendo was testing and they got these same results and didn't like them, so instead of checking Platinum to Platinum games, which would have allowed it to work in the Union Room or on Wi-Fi, they made it so they couldn't be taken into the Union Room/Wi-Fi.
Click to expand...
No you cannot use pokesav to edit your save state inside the union room.
You use pokesav to add skymin to Diamond or pearl. D/P is not programmed to revert them to their regular forms so you are allowed to be in the union room and wifi with them
4) What happens when you remove a special move from Rotom? (i.e. Can you have a Heat Rotom that does not know Overheat, I see it as a way of playing mindgames with people)
Click to expand...
From my testing it seems that you cannot transform if you do not accept the special move. But I went to the move deleter and was allowed to delete the move.
 
I think that Platinum treats any Shaymin(land or sky form) coming from D/P as being land form(perhaps even the ones coming from other Platinums?). It reads out the HEX-slot that D/P is sending and copies the data but it doesn't add the value that Platinum uses to determine whether the Shaymin is land form or sky form which makes it read it as being land form so it assigns the land form traits to the Shaymin that is being sent.
 
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