Other I've Got the Priority!

[Chou Toshio]

My, how far we've come from that.

I think the first thing that really stands out to any player coming from DPP / BW going into the current XY Beta OU / Pokebank is the sheer amount of priority attacks. They're everywhere, and pretty much rule the metagame. Priority attacks are the meta-- they are so fast, and so powerful; every game becomes a test of who can set up and blast the opponent into oblivion with priority first-- or weathering out the storm of Acrobats and Extreme Speeds to take down the key enemy threats. While I also posted a thread about "bulky offense ruling XY", I think the first round of play testing has completely shown otherwise-- the power and diversity of priority attacks is so intense, that the current OU makes BW OU look "slow", "tame" and "defensive" by comparison.

The initial instinct is to chock this new environment up to the released ubers-- it's true, that with Pokemon like Blaziken, Genesect, and Landorus-I running free, we would expect a more offensive metagame. What's important though is that these "released beasts" are NOT at the top of the XY food chain; they're doing well if they manage to stay relevant-- but dominating? Definitely not. I've never seen anyone use a Manaphy. Tornadus and Thundurus are barely ever seen. Landorus-I and Excadrill just manage to eek out a niche in there somewhere. Genesect is a staple but not a standout, and the mighty Blaziken just can't seem to find a spot on a lot of teams when it's wiped out by a priority Acrobat.

Is this just a case of "new and shiny"? I think otherwise-- seeing as Darkrai, Deoxys formes, and Shaymin-S were literally everywhere at the start of BW OU-- the "released ubers" then had far more representation than they do now. I think it's safe to say that performance plays a big role, and while XY didn't release a whole lot of Pokemon-- it clearly released threats that were on "a whole 'nother level", of priority.

As basic OP data, I'll put summations of the major priority moves that make up the priority meta:

New Priority:

Talonflame:
252+ Atk Flying Gem (custom) Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 216-255 (63.34 - 74.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 204-242 (59.82 - 70.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Priority on these monstrous flying attacks makes this the angriest bird to ever live. Flying's always had tremendous potential, but BW Tornadus-T has NOTHING on Talonflame. With the potential to boost up with SD, this gets more 6-0's than DD Gyara ever did.

Mega Kangaskhan
252+ Atk Kangaskhan Sucker Punch (Both Hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 140-165 (41.05 - 48.38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-Fake Out can be vicious too, especially alongside Sucker Punch

Mega Lucario
252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 104-124 (30.49 - 36.36%) -- 54.05% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Lucario ExtremeSpeed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 104-123 (30.49 - 36.07%) -- 51.12% chance to 3HKO
And while it's never commonly seen, it's not like this Pokemon CAN'T use its monstrous Sp.A, Nasty Plot, and Adaptability Vacuum Wave.

Mega Mawile
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 165-195 (48.38 - 57.18%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

Mega Pinsir
252+ Atk Aeriolite Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 107-126 (31.37 - 36.95%) -- 79.1% chance to 3HKO

Aegislash
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 105-125 (30.79 - 36.65%) -- 62.35% chance to 3HKO

This tremendous plethora of diverse priority has dramatically changed the metagame, especially with Steel types having lost those Ghost and Dark resistances. Most of these guys can easily get boosts, with all of them having access to Swords Dance, or +2 Power Punch for Kang. Pinsir can even get to +2.5 easily enough if it can pick off something with Moxie before mega evolving.

Flying, Dark, Normal, and it can't be forgotten that all the OLD priority attacks are still there too! Scizor's even more on top of his game, with Mega Scizor making it ridiculously easy to set up a Swords Dance and go nuts with its new power and bulk. Dragonite has never been better with the new Weakness Policy letting it easily getting to +2 or +2.5 before rampaging with its own Extreme Speed. Breloom might have gotten nerfed like crazy, but that doesn't mean your team can still go without a good answer to Priority Techinician Mach Punch. Mamoswine is still living large with the most powerful Ice Shard in the meta. And finally, Azumarril-- Not only will you now see this guy everywhere thanks to his awesome new typing, but Belly Drum + Aqua Jet unleashed--

+6 252+ Atk Splash Plate Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 381-448 (111.73 - 131.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Of course, Genesect, Zygarde, and the Deoxys formes also get Extreme Speed, and could really mess you up if you underestimate them.


That's it for the summary.

This thread is to discuss impressions on the priority meta, as well as discussing strategies for dealing with all the meta's priority attacks. What pokes make good answers? How many checks to priority does it take? What types of strategies win and lose out from this metagame shift? DO SPEED TIERS (for non priority Pokemon) EVEN MATTER ANYMORE???

 

[X5Dragon]

I think it's a very solid deal, having a pokemon with bulk, power and then priority to make for the lack of speed. It's even better when a pokemon excels at ALL 3 and still gets one. For me these are the standards in which offensive pokemon and their counters/checks are judged upon (how well they can tank them).

I predicted in the past the rise of such teams, Priority spamming teams when the environment and the right pokemon were made, and I have experimented with it before:

X5Dragon Sets yOUr Priorities Straight!

I think this is its time shine.

 

[LordRandomness]

Another facet to this whole priority angle is potentially new Prankster mons and new tricks for the old ones (I've been hearing some good things about Klefki, for instance). With Prankster providing access to support if necessary, I don't know that we're far off being able to build an entire team that uses almost nothing but priority moves. (...okay so that's probably an exaggeration, but you get the idea)

 

[SergantGold]

I can vouch that BD Azumarril can tear through ferrothorn with aqua jet in sun. Not that you would want to but still....

 

[X5Dragon]

You are right, totally forgot about Prankster there. This adds a whole new dimension to support where you now you can just throw spikes at priority or remove them just the same with unblockable defog. There is also the fact that weather got nerf so Priority Weather moves might come in heavy demand as well.

 

[Xaris]

Gamefreak might actually be headed towards more forms of priority than just move effects. Maybe prankster was a variable preview for some more priority abilities like Gale Wings. I think we might se alternate forms of priority, such as an ability that gives moves at a certain power (about Technician's 60) priority, abilities that give priority to certain move types, like gale wings, or a move like belly drum that cuts HP (I fell that Atk should be cut for this if it becomes a reality) and in return, moves get priority.

 

[LordRandomness]

Gamefreak might actually be headed towards more forms of priority than just move effects. Maybe prankster was a variable preview for some more priority abilities like Gale Wings. I think we might se alternate forms of priority, such as an ability that gives moves at a certain power (about Technician's 60) priority, abilities that give priority to certain move types, like gale wings, or a move like belly drum that cuts HP (I fell that Atk should be cut for this if it becomes a reality) and in return, moves get priority.

Expanding on this, Baby-Doll Eyes strikes me as an interesting preview of non-damaging moves that have priority by default. Mayhaps we'll see more of those in future generations too.

Back to the topic at hand, priority moves do generally require a cost (generally low base power, or otherwise inferior stats/typing in Talonflame's case). Additionally, almost every priority option is physical (Vacuum Wave has poor distribution and mostly to things that don't want it for a reason). As such, I suspect physical walls/tanks will play an integral role in countering priority by effectively wasting the opposing investment in priority attacks by assuming they'll go last and planning for it.

The other important thing to note is that priority attacks are a poor choice if the opponent switches or uses a negative priority move, since the speed is irrelevant and the priority attack highly unlikely to hit as hard as a regular one would have. In particular, it may be possible to take advantage of priority prevalence to use phazing moves with less risk of being clobbered when trying to throw one out. Just a couple thoughts.

 

[Ranevski]

I'm not sure what you mean about the metagame proving to not be bulky offense. I think Bulky Offense is exactly the way the metagame is shaping up because of all the good priority users. This might sound a bit weird but I think priority is currently overrated. I think it's incredible on certain pokemon and I think it's clearly deciding how the metagame works out. However I feel that people are giving it even more weight than that, which is shortsighted.

There are several pokemon such as those listed by Chou that need their priority to do what they do and that's great for them. However in many cases the victims that were previously killed by said priority are now building bulkier. Pokemon like bulky Garchomp are no longer OHK'd by Ice Shards. Ghosts are running Substitute to completely screw over SuckerPunch users. Many pokemon are so bulky at the moment that most Extremespeed users are failing to finish off things that they used to revenge just fine. The only reason ExtremeSpeed is still seeing play at all is because it still does quite well to check TalonFlame who lacks bulk. Once more people run solid TalonFlame counters like Rotom-W I forsee TalonFlame usage dropping, and by extension people are going to realise ExtremeSpeed is no longer worth the spot.

Again I think several pokemon will continue to carry priority because it's just what they do best - the AquaJet Azumarills and BulletPunch Scizors of the world aren't going anywhere. But those guys will exist in what is overall a Bulky Offense metagame.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^It's true that mons are overall bulkier (just because Starmie, Latios, Thundurus and friends are sitting ducks that just get smashed to pieces), but the overall nature of the game-- set up, go ballistic with incredible power and Speed (thanks to priority) is very hyper offensive in feel and style. I guess you could say it's "bulky offense" because the pokemon are bulkier, but the game has diverged a lot from what you would traditionally think of as a "bulky offense" style of play.

 

[Ranevski]

I hear what you're saying, I just think that we are in a transitional phase and your original prediction of "Bulky Offense" was/is a lot more on the mark than your opening post suggests. I honestly don't see SuckerPunch/Extremespeed/IceShard being anywhere near as ubiquitous once the dust settles, which will result in it feeling like the traditional Bulky Offense you speak of.

 

[T-Bolt]

You forgot to mention Crawdaunt, who has an adaptability boosted aqua jet now. Sure, it may not be OU material, but it's certainly viable in OU IMO.

Shadow sneak Aegislash deserves a mention too, IMO. SS is a staple on most Aegislash sets, and SD Aegislash is a great late game cleaner with Shadow sneak.

 

[NotSoClutch]

I honestly believe the best counter to priority is bulky offense. What forces talonflame out? A ttar or rotom with the bulk to take a brave bird and the offensive presence to ohko it if it doesnt switch. Also, Ive been surprised to see how few people have used deoxys normal. Extreme speed coming off of that attack is scary. Not to mention it can run a fantastic mixed set and outspeed every non priority user. Im guessing people just assume it will be uber sooner or later and want to get used to what will be available. Either way, the point of all of this rambling is that I think priority based offense and bulky offense both go hand in hand.

 

[Jaroda]

I think priority is actually indicative of a BO meta. Why? Well most bulky tanks are not speed demons. A priority move is necessary to finish of faster threats, but very few pokemon should it be the goto move. This where smart players with knowledge of speed tiers and damage calls will prevail. The reason I could use Conkeldurr effectively before was knowing when I was strong enough to take a hit and use Drain Punch for the crucial damage and healing, and when I needed Mach Punch to clinch the KO avoiding damage altogether, or to get one last hurrah before finally biting it with no chance of recovery. Tanks need moves like these for said purposes. Few pokemon have the ability to boost to the point of sweeping with priority alone. Priority is simply something every team needs to be competitive. Old HO teams didn't really need priority moves when they were relying on their naturally high speed to outpace things. Now however you're getting variations with mixes of speed and power like Talonflame and Pinsir. This necessitates sturdy resistances as a result. Fortunately priority moves are limited in type to Steel, Water, Dark, Fighting, Normal and Flying (really surprised there's no Electric priority as a result) and they are virtually all physical. Water is resistant to two of these. Ghost immune to another two. Sucker Punch users can fortunately be screwed by status and boosting moves since it requires better prediction. Steel resists three of those. Essentially bulky steels and waters will be as useful as ever. Jellicent the with water absorb takes no damage from three of these, soaks Talonflame and can burn everything too. It has many tools to screw with ST users. Slowbro is a terrific priority sponge and has access to recovery in Regenerator and Slack Off. Mega Aggron with filter is so absurdly bulky he doesn't give two hits about your priority moves, super effective or otherwise. He can also Thunder wave your ass.

 

[Thorhammer]

The thing is, priority makes speed less significant. Who cares how fast your Garchomp is when I can blow it to pieces with my Cloyster? The answer to priority is something that doesn't care. In most cases, a switch into a resistor means taking low damage, but in the case of the increasingly popular Sucker Punch, there are even more ways to interfere. A switch will nullify it completely, but you can mess with it even more ways. Mega Kangaskhan is by far the biggest threat with Sucker Punch, but a faster Will-o-wisp or Substitute can really turn things around.

My own experiences with the meta have been with my own, rather weird team. It has some bulky offense functions; every single Pokemon on the team has one or more defensive stats over 100 and can take a hit. But I've also found it extremely important to sacrifice Pokemon to keep moving; there have been so many times when I've left my Tyranitar to die, even if it was healthy, to start up a sandstorm that lets Excadrill turn around a battle. I've found that a lot of battles will go by very fast, and I'm really curious how this compares to battles in past gens or if it's just my imagination. In spite of all the fast battles, there have been plenty of slower ones as well, so it's hard to say.

If there's a change, I think it's more of a symptom of the Megas in general, with their generally offensive inclinations, and with a lot of them having downright scary priority. And while there can be plenty of wars between them over priority, the most definitive priority user is Talonflame, and there are no priority wars with it. You're not going to outspeed its priority Brave Birds, plain and simple. You want to fight it, you have to have something that can take the hit and work from there. Unless you've got Extremespeed, of course. We all know what Talonflame can do to Blaziken, and in fact it may be the main factor responsible for why Blaziken hasn't been dominating the meta. There's a lot of nasty offense out there, but the priority means the traditional offense with super speed and super power just isn't working the way it used to.

 

[Kyreth]

You forgot to mention Crawdaunt, who has an adaptability boosted aqua jet now. Sure, it may not be OU material, but it's certainly viable in OU IMO.

Shadow sneak Aegislash deserves a mention too, IMO. SS is a staple on most Aegislash sets, and SD Aegislash is a great late game cleaner with Shadow sneak.

Crawdaunt actually can generate terrific amounts of force between it's new Aqua Jet and the beefier Crabhammer. As has been noted elsewhere, it's very much like a Water/Dark version of Azurmarill with good move coverage now.

Heck, we even have stuff like Huge Power Diggersby putting very respectable STAB Quick Attacks out there, though he's not likely to be OU he'll be a big presence in whatever tier he gets dropped into.

Priority in part I think is popular due to the wholehearted embracing of fast, oft-Speed Boost and Baton Passed offense thanks to having two solid Boost passers who can also deliver their own punch- Scolipede and Blaziken. People want to be able to do something without being outsped, and priority is the means to those ends. Having something in your ranks that can deal with that high-speed attack run is going to be a part of the XY meta for quite some time, or else it's going to be a whole bunch of matches that look like a pair of gunslingers going for their holsters.

 

[Dragontamer]

252+ Atk Flying Gem (custom) Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 216-255 (63.34 - 74.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The research thread has shown that Normal Gem is only 30% power. If Flying Gem is ever released, we can probably expect it to only be at 30% power as well. So... Acrobatics + Gem is out. This makes Talonflame Brave Bird the strongest Priority attack in the meta (2nd strongest all around. Only weaker than Yveltal Life Orb Suckerpunch, but stronger than Extreme-Killer Arceus).

-----------

I've begun to notice that "speed within priority" is beginning to matter. The easiest way to deal with Mawile SuckerPunch, is to simply outrun it and hit Mawile first with your own priority. A faster Aegislash Shadow Sneak or Talonflame Brave Bird makes Suckerpunch fail. This is part of why Talonflame Brave Birds are so powerful: it beats all other priority users outside of ExtremeSpeed, while simultaneously being one of the most powerful priority attacks in the game. We may be running "speed tiers" calculations with priority users soon... Base 50 beats Mawile / Azumarril, Base 60 beats Aegislash, etc. etc.

 

[Fundance]

Baby-doll eyes does seem to be like testing the waters, though they were perhaps erring a little too much on the safe side of things.

Let's not forget about Prankster Banette, with priority Destiny Bond and Disable.

 

[BasiliskXVIII]

Honestly, I can see the rise of priority making a niche for bulky Weakness Policy revenge killers, not to mention attacks such as Payback or Avalanche, in the lower tiers. Switch in something that can eat a supereffective hit, then hit back hard with boosted attack. After all, if you know you're going second anyways, you may as well take advantage of it.

 

[DaiGuren]

I think this is turning into a rock-paper-scissor kind of thing.

Priority user will win against a speedy offensive mon, but is countered by a bulky offensive mon that can stomach a priority move and OHKO back.

Bulky offensive mon will win against a priority user but might have problem against a speedy offensive pokemon since a speedy offensive pokemon will most likely pack more power than your average priority user, bar CB scizor and BD azumarill.

Speedy offensive pokemon will win against a bulky offensive pokemon, but will most likely have trouble against a priority user.

Of course actual pokemon battles aren't as one-sided as that but imo battles are certainly heading towards that direction.

 

[Thorhammer]

I have to wonder if Sticky Web is playing into this at all. Even if it's not as prominent as we might expect, it screws up the reliability of the conventional speed tiers. Maybe your sweeper can't outspeed stuff you need it to just on raw stats; it takes a whole lot more Spe to be sure you'll outmatch a given foe without priority. And what about the teams using Sticky Web? They need the web to outspeed things, but what if the web isn't up? They need other ways to bypass those speed tiers.

 

[jas61292]

So far this gen, I have seen a ton of priority everywhere, but I think a lot of it right now is more of a hype thing, as I think a large portion of the priority is either not on Pokemon good enough to stay a common OU threat in the future, or vastly overvalued in terms of its power. Now obviously, you can't judge a move by how bad players use it, but by far I think the most common mistake I have seen People make when battling this gen is overestimating the Power of their own priority, especially on Aegislash and Talonflame (more the former than the latter, though).

In the case of Aegislash, yes, it has a wonderful attack stat, but that's it. It does not get an ability boost or anything, and most people do not run any boosting items. Yet, all the time people try and sweep with it acting as if it can break just about anything. Aegislash is cool, certainly, and its priority has use, but its no Scizor.

And, honestly, in the long run, that's how I see most of this playing out. "Ok, but not Scizor." Now, when I say that I don't mean that they lack the sheer power that the classic CB Scizor provides. While most of them do, that is not always the case. What I mean is simply this: Scizor has been able to dominate the metagame in the past with powerful priority, but only because its priority, while being incredibly useful, was only one of many great features about it. While a lot of these new Pokemon may have priority of equal use or quality, I think most have things going against them that Scizor did not have to deal with.

Talonflame has a x4 SR weak and a sever power shortage. While its priority might make waves with the sheer force it can provide, its all purpose power is pathetic, making it a burden to have in situations where it is unable to spam Brave Bird.

Aegislash is incredibly prediction reliant. Its slow, and, depending on the situation, can have abysmal bulk. It also lacks powerful offensive moves. Now, of course, it has plenty of upside is a fine defensive typing, great stats, and all the rest, but its priority is mostly an afterthought, and not something that can make it carry a team. It is one feature that helps make a good Pokemon, but not a defining feature that takes a good Pokemon and makes it great.

Then you have all the Mega's that, while great Pokemon, have the inherent disadvantage of increased competition for a teamslot. Not only that, but each of them has some other downsides too. Mawile and Kangaskhan have only Sucker Punch for their priority. As powerful as that can be, that is not going to be metagame defining any time soon. Both have power that pales in comparison to last gen's king of priority power: Absol. But that sheer power on priority was not enough to make absol useful. Now both of these guys have things going for them that absol does not. But the are also both very one dimensional. You can generally tell how they will be played, and, unlike with reliable priority users, they can't just power through and not care about that.

Pinsir is really cool and all, but between its typing and all the competition, I have a hard time believing it will make much of a splash. It could very well define priority in the lower tiers, but we'll have to wait and see on that one.

Mega Lucario is probably the most scary new priority addition in my opinion, but that is not because of the power it provides. Lucario Extremespeed has always been strong. It didn't get all that much stronger this gen. However, it now has variety on its side. Both ESpeed and Bullet Punch have advantages and you can't know for sure which you will face. It has a wonderful typing, amazing stats, and it can often set up SDs with ease. Probably the biggest advantage though is the natural speed. One weakness of a lot of the other priority users is that they are naturally slow. No matter how strong your priority moves are, they are still no more than 80 BP (UnSTAB, in most cases). Being fast means you only need to threaten faster Pokemon and other prio users with your priority. While Aegislash or Mawile might be outspeed by and not be able to break tanks with their priority, Mega Lucario can just Close Combat the them instead. Its stats limit what it needs prio for, but give it the ability to beat such a huge portion of that group with its prio. Finally, its important to note that Lucario has wonderful mixed offenses, and while physical attacking is the norm for it, it is unarguably the single best user of special priority in the game. Fighting is such a wonderful offensive typing, especially on the special side, and with 140 SpA and Adaptability, Vacuum Wave can be scary to face.

Overall, I don't know if the priority scene will be that much different than it has always been, but at the very least, I think the threat of priority will encourage Bulky Offense even more than it already is being emphasized, as frailer playstyles have trouble with the new powerful priority, and bulkier styles can't handle to offensive pressure that some of these slower guys can put on when they are not using priority moves. The balance between being able to take prio users and being able to use prio users will be a big advantage to bulky offense in my mind.

 

[MagnetBoy]

yup priority teams that have access to swords dance are pretty hard to stop atm. There is no real definitive wall for physical like there is for special (blissey/chansey) meaning that whenever your opponent switches in their counter and you have to switch out, they are getting a free swords dance for their priority move (or even worse, belly drum) and then you are in a downhill battle since most of the very strong priority users can 2HKO the entire metagame pretty much after a swords dance with few exceptions.

TL DR the nerf to special users was overdone and physical priority rules right now, the only reason to take a special user right now would be to have some one like greninja or noivern that are speedy and won't get sub stalled by gliscor/trevenant/etc

 

[Lovelace]

I think the reason that priority is so good right now is that the meta is so stupid large. You can't really account for everything your opponent might bring, that's part of the reason why Volt Turn is even stronger than even- it functions almost irrespective of what threats the opponent has brought so long as you have momentum. When you have such diversity in sticky web, speed boosters, swift swimmers, and Pokemon all up and down the speed tiers you need something reliable.

 

[I2edShift]

I wonder, are people not using all of the released Ubers because they're assuming they'll just be banned again later? Makes sense in the long run I suppose.

 

[sunshinesan]

I wonder, are people not using all of the released Ubers because they're assuming they'll just be banned again later? Makes sense in the long run I suppose.

I assume people aren't using them because they are not legal yet? At least until December.