Honestly, my main problem with Mega-Lucario as a check for Mega-Kang is the fact that you need to mega-evolve before he can actually do his job, and finding safe switch-ins for the frail Lucario isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world, and God forbid you don't run a Spinner/Defog user and the opposing team has Sticky Web up.
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Pokémon Kangaskhan
- Thread starter The Leprechaun
- Start date
- Status
Tou
you make a good point about blastoise. Bulky, mono water, basically has no sucker punch weakness or fighting, stands to reason that blastoise could wall kanga easily, id agree on Alakazam but only it it's life orb magic guard so no residual damage. Kinda takes the chance of focus miss though. Hydreigons dark half makes me wary of calling it a counter unless it's scarfed or sashed for fear of PuP
So Blastoise can switch in and take a hit pretty easily with maximum bulk.
In return:
4 SpA Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 150-178 (42.7 - 50.7%)
It loses 1v1.
EDIT: Didn't factor in abilities.
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Blastoise: 307-364 (84.8 - 100.5%)
Pretty bad chance of surviving if it switches in on PuP.
4 SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 226-266 (64.3 - 75.7%)
Still loses 1v1 even if it survives.
And if it's not running maximum bulk, it just dies outright so not even a check, really.
Doesn't check the Seismic Toss variant either since it can't switch in on ST (2HKO) and can't win 1v1 if it switches in on anything else.
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On an Adamant natured Kangaskhan, what EV spreads have you guys been having the most success with? Other than 252 into Attack, what would the remaining EVs make a difference in?
- 252 Speed? What would you hope to outspeed with a neutral speed nature? Not that 100 base speed is bad, but I'm curious.
- 252 Hp? With the extra bulk, what hits can you tank through that you wouldn't do with 4 Hp investment?
- Other EV spread? Is anyone running a specific spread for anything, and why?
- 252 Speed? What would you hope to outspeed with a neutral speed nature? Not that 100 base speed is bad, but I'm curious.
- 252 Hp? With the extra bulk, what hits can you tank through that you wouldn't do with 4 Hp investment?
- Other EV spread? Is anyone running a specific spread for anything, and why?
Max speed Timid Rotom-W is worth running max speed for with Adamant. And everything slower ofcourse, like Dragonite and Mamoswine. You don't need HP investment for anything in particular. Speed tieing with other Adamant Mega Kangaskhan can be useful. Basically there's not much reason to use anything else than 252 Atk/252 Spd.
Okay, let's see how unaware users fare. Remember Unaware means you aren't affect by stat boosts.
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 177-211 (44.9 - 53.5%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 117-138 (29.6 - 35%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 93-111 (23.6 - 28.1%)
Quasire doesn't look so good. There's a pretty good chance of a 2HKO on return and Quarsire can't do much in return.
4 Atk Quagsire Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 91-108 (25.9 - 30.7%)
4 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 114-135 (32.4 - 38.4%)
Maybe it can stall out Kang if it's poisoned by spamming recover but that's about it from what I can see.
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 193-229 (48.9 - 58.1%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 127-150 (32.2 - 38%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 51-60 (12.9 - 15.2%)
Clefable doesn't fare any better, but at least she resists the propriety hit but she can't do that much in return either.
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 118-141 (33.6 - 40.1%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 177-211 (44.9 - 53.5%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 117-138 (29.6 - 35%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 93-111 (23.6 - 28.1%)
Quasire doesn't look so good. There's a pretty good chance of a 2HKO on return and Quarsire can't do much in return.
4 Atk Quagsire Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 91-108 (25.9 - 30.7%)
4 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 114-135 (32.4 - 38.4%)
Maybe it can stall out Kang if it's poisoned by spamming recover but that's about it from what I can see.
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 193-229 (48.9 - 58.1%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 127-150 (32.2 - 38%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 51-60 (12.9 - 15.2%)
Clefable doesn't fare any better, but at least she resists the propriety hit but she can't do that much in return either.
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 118-141 (33.6 - 40.1%)
Yeah, it's not foolproof for sure, in fact it's very hard to pull off. which is why I'm trying other things.
Like I said, maybe a Dragon Dancer that can set up to outspeed who carries a coverage move, like a Haxorus with Low Kick or something?
Ok, long post.
Parental Bond is a Choice Band. Here are just some small calcs to prove it:
0 Atk Choice Band Mega Kangaskhan Acid Spray (Physical 110 Power Move) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 511-602 (267.5 - 315.1%)
0 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Acid Spray vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 511-603 (267.5 - 315.7%)
I just clicked the first thing in each of the possible slots. But still, you can't deny it is a Choice Band. That's pretty freaking OP if you ask me. But, if we're talking about counters, why has no one mentioned Physically Defense Bronzong? I mean, yes, Sucker Punch will 2HKO it, but it can set up in this time? Return only does this:
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 87-103 (25.7 - 30.4%)
So yeah, pretty hard to break through. +2 Kanga can't even OHKO it!
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 172-204 (50.8 - 60.3%)
it needs +6 to even come close to a OHKO:
+6 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 345-406 (102 - 120.1%)
No good player will let it set up this much, but still, if you're playing a bad player than I guess it is possible. Going back to the Sucker Punch issue, if it chooses to set up Reflect in its time, then this happens:
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong through Reflect: 91-108 (26.9 - 31.9%)
Effectively making Bronzong unbreakable by Kangaskhan. Meanwhile however, Bronzong literally cannot touch Kangaskhan:
252+ Atk Choice Band Bronzong Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Kangaskhan: 213-252 (66.5 - 78.7%)
So it makes a great check at best. But still, it is pretty damn good. You can just do what you want and then switch out as the opponent will see how their pathetic Return's are doing and flee. Bronzong isn't so significant in OU, so yeah. A set consisting of Light Screen / Reflect / Trick Room / Explosion with Normal Gem (the only Gem in the game) can actually handle Kangaskhan however:
0 Atk Normal Gem Bronzong Explosion vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 243-286 (75.7 - 89%)
That is a OHKO after Spikes, even though this is rare. Still, it leaves Meag Kangaskhan so weak and crippled it is worth losing a Pokemon. I honestly think that is what it takes to own a Mega Kangaskhan. Also, Spiritomb is an often overlooked Pokemon that fares well! Here are calculations on the common moves:
Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. Spiritomb: 0-0 (0 - 0%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb through Reflect: 58-70 (19 - 23%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb through Reflect: 48-57 (15.7 - 18.7%)
Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. Spiritomb: 0-0 (0 - 0%)
In the meantime, Spiritomb can just cripple it with Burn! Here are calculations with the moves it can hit it with after a Burn:
252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb through Reflect: 28-34 (9.2 - 11.1%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb through Reflect: 24-28 (7.8 - 9.2%)
pathetic, isn't it? Spiritomb can then proceed to set up Calm Minds or just leave and bring in another Pokemon. And back to Kangaskhan, why does nobody use Fire Blast on it? If it is ok for Absol to use it, it should be ok for Kangaskhan to use it! Here are calculations:
4 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 204-246 (57.9 - 69.8%)
4 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 144-171 (43.1 - 51.1%)
4 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 312-372 (88.1 - 105%)
4 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Genesect: 234-282 (67.6 - 81.5%)
even with such little investment, it packs a punch against anything that resists what it currently has. You might think to yourself, "why not Fire Punch?" Here's why:
1. Not accessible until Bank.
2. You take twice as much from Iron Barbs / Rocky Helmet.
I also wanted to take it upon myself to put together a list of moves it can really take advantage of with, but aren't as common [Earthquake / Return / Crunch / Sucker Punch / Power-Up-Punch are excluded]
Pre-Bank:
- Fake Out
Although I don't think it is great, some people enjoy the ability to pick off weakened foes as they switch in. Waste of a moveslot imo, but whatever, it deserves mention.
- Bulldoze
While it may seem gimmicky, it is essentially a 90 Base Power move that lowers the opponent's Speed by 2, that's pretty good to aid your team if it lacks Speed.
- Rock Tomb
While it may seem gimmicky, it is essentially a 90 Base Power move that lowers the opponent's Speed by 2, that's pretty good to aid your team if it lacks Speed, it also hits Talonflame hard and lowers its Speed.
- Confide
Hear me out on this one, but it is the same as the two above this, it is basically a reverse Nasty Plot, which can stop stuff like Gengar as they switch in.
- Focus Punch
Jeez, SubPunch is underrated imo, and on Kangaskhan it truly works. It is a 225 Base Power Fighting-type move, it will hurt. May be hard to set up, but it pays off in the long run.
- Disable
While it doesn't take advantage of Parental Bond, it can fit onto a SubPunch set to set up Sub with ease. Maybe a set of Sub / Return / Disable / Focus Punch could work? Walled by Ghosts, but hey, that's what teammates are for.
- Crush Claw
Again, a gimmicky option when Power-Up-Punch exists, but it is guaranteed to lower the opponent's defense.
- Double-Edge
Should only be used with team support, like Wish! It hits so much harder than Return, at the cost of being worn down like crazy!
- Hammer Arm
The Speed drop sucks, but it is very powerful and hits things really hard.
Bank:
- Fire / Thunder / Ice Punch
Elemental Punches might see some use once they are available, they do provide solid coverage.
- Drain Punch
I've been testing Drain Punch on a bulkier Sub / Drain Punch / Return / Sucker Punch set and it's been doing wonders! The recovery it provides is phenomenal and will sap the life away from Blissey so fast.
- Aqua Tail
Hey, it has the advantage of hitting Skarmory harder than any of it's other moves, but fairly useless otherwise, still a nice Water coverage if you need that.
I think Mega Kangaskhan is certainly powerful, but I don't think it is undefeatable. Overall, I think it will stay OU, but it isn't my choice so whatever. What I really want to see is people expanding on Kangaskhan beyond Parental Bond. I mean it has slightly better bulk than Celebi, but people still insist is supremely bulk and hard to take down. Celebi is somewhat hard to take down, but Kangaskhan has the worse typing. Its stats aren't so great, I mean it has good Speed, but so does so many other things. Mega Garchomp has much better stats, yet everyone is so drawn to Kangaskhan. Yes, it is strong, but with proper set up nearly everything can be (sorry Unown, Delibird, and Farfetch'd ):). People need to just realize Mega Kangaskhan isn't a god send that can utterly destroy teams. It can, but so could Garchomp and Kyurem-B, but those are both held back because of various reasons. Same with Kangaskhan, Physical walls and Rocky Helmet / Iron Barbs both end it in two turns, while most Fighting-types can easily take it on and kill it. I mean, look at Conkeldurr:
252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Conkeldurr: 240-283 (75 - 88.4%)
meanwhile it gets killed by Drain Punch:
252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 342-404 (97.4 - 115%)
Certainly Mega Kangaskhan is good, but it isn't soo overwhelming and game breaking.
/endpost
Parental Bond is a Choice Band. Here are just some small calcs to prove it:
0 Atk Choice Band Mega Kangaskhan Acid Spray (Physical 110 Power Move) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 511-602 (267.5 - 315.1%)
0 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Acid Spray vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 511-603 (267.5 - 315.7%)
I just clicked the first thing in each of the possible slots. But still, you can't deny it is a Choice Band. That's pretty freaking OP if you ask me. But, if we're talking about counters, why has no one mentioned Physically Defense Bronzong? I mean, yes, Sucker Punch will 2HKO it, but it can set up in this time? Return only does this:
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 87-103 (25.7 - 30.4%)
So yeah, pretty hard to break through. +2 Kanga can't even OHKO it!
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 172-204 (50.8 - 60.3%)
it needs +6 to even come close to a OHKO:
+6 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 345-406 (102 - 120.1%)
No good player will let it set up this much, but still, if you're playing a bad player than I guess it is possible. Going back to the Sucker Punch issue, if it chooses to set up Reflect in its time, then this happens:
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong through Reflect: 91-108 (26.9 - 31.9%)
Effectively making Bronzong unbreakable by Kangaskhan. Meanwhile however, Bronzong literally cannot touch Kangaskhan:
252+ Atk Choice Band Bronzong Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Kangaskhan: 213-252 (66.5 - 78.7%)
So it makes a great check at best. But still, it is pretty damn good. You can just do what you want and then switch out as the opponent will see how their pathetic Return's are doing and flee. Bronzong isn't so significant in OU, so yeah. A set consisting of Light Screen / Reflect / Trick Room / Explosion with Normal Gem (the only Gem in the game) can actually handle Kangaskhan however:
0 Atk Normal Gem Bronzong Explosion vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 243-286 (75.7 - 89%)
That is a OHKO after Spikes, even though this is rare. Still, it leaves Meag Kangaskhan so weak and crippled it is worth losing a Pokemon. I honestly think that is what it takes to own a Mega Kangaskhan. Also, Spiritomb is an often overlooked Pokemon that fares well! Here are calculations on the common moves:
Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. Spiritomb: 0-0 (0 - 0%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb through Reflect: 58-70 (19 - 23%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb through Reflect: 48-57 (15.7 - 18.7%)
Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. Spiritomb: 0-0 (0 - 0%)
In the meantime, Spiritomb can just cripple it with Burn! Here are calculations with the moves it can hit it with after a Burn:
252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb through Reflect: 28-34 (9.2 - 11.1%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb through Reflect: 24-28 (7.8 - 9.2%)
pathetic, isn't it? Spiritomb can then proceed to set up Calm Minds or just leave and bring in another Pokemon. And back to Kangaskhan, why does nobody use Fire Blast on it? If it is ok for Absol to use it, it should be ok for Kangaskhan to use it! Here are calculations:
4 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 204-246 (57.9 - 69.8%)
4 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 144-171 (43.1 - 51.1%)
4 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 312-372 (88.1 - 105%)
4 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Genesect: 234-282 (67.6 - 81.5%)
even with such little investment, it packs a punch against anything that resists what it currently has. You might think to yourself, "why not Fire Punch?" Here's why:
1. Not accessible until Bank.
2. You take twice as much from Iron Barbs / Rocky Helmet.
I also wanted to take it upon myself to put together a list of moves it can really take advantage of with, but aren't as common [Earthquake / Return / Crunch / Sucker Punch / Power-Up-Punch are excluded]
Pre-Bank:
- Fake Out
Although I don't think it is great, some people enjoy the ability to pick off weakened foes as they switch in. Waste of a moveslot imo, but whatever, it deserves mention.
- Bulldoze
While it may seem gimmicky, it is essentially a 90 Base Power move that lowers the opponent's Speed by 2, that's pretty good to aid your team if it lacks Speed.
- Rock Tomb
While it may seem gimmicky, it is essentially a 90 Base Power move that lowers the opponent's Speed by 2, that's pretty good to aid your team if it lacks Speed, it also hits Talonflame hard and lowers its Speed.
- Confide
Hear me out on this one, but it is the same as the two above this, it is basically a reverse Nasty Plot, which can stop stuff like Gengar as they switch in.
- Focus Punch
Jeez, SubPunch is underrated imo, and on Kangaskhan it truly works. It is a 225 Base Power Fighting-type move, it will hurt. May be hard to set up, but it pays off in the long run.
- Disable
While it doesn't take advantage of Parental Bond, it can fit onto a SubPunch set to set up Sub with ease. Maybe a set of Sub / Return / Disable / Focus Punch could work? Walled by Ghosts, but hey, that's what teammates are for.
- Crush Claw
Again, a gimmicky option when Power-Up-Punch exists, but it is guaranteed to lower the opponent's defense.
- Double-Edge
Should only be used with team support, like Wish! It hits so much harder than Return, at the cost of being worn down like crazy!
- Hammer Arm
The Speed drop sucks, but it is very powerful and hits things really hard.
Bank:
- Fire / Thunder / Ice Punch
Elemental Punches might see some use once they are available, they do provide solid coverage.
- Drain Punch
I've been testing Drain Punch on a bulkier Sub / Drain Punch / Return / Sucker Punch set and it's been doing wonders! The recovery it provides is phenomenal and will sap the life away from Blissey so fast.
- Aqua Tail
Hey, it has the advantage of hitting Skarmory harder than any of it's other moves, but fairly useless otherwise, still a nice Water coverage if you need that.
I think Mega Kangaskhan is certainly powerful, but I don't think it is undefeatable. Overall, I think it will stay OU, but it isn't my choice so whatever. What I really want to see is people expanding on Kangaskhan beyond Parental Bond. I mean it has slightly better bulk than Celebi, but people still insist is supremely bulk and hard to take down. Celebi is somewhat hard to take down, but Kangaskhan has the worse typing. Its stats aren't so great, I mean it has good Speed, but so does so many other things. Mega Garchomp has much better stats, yet everyone is so drawn to Kangaskhan. Yes, it is strong, but with proper set up nearly everything can be (sorry Unown, Delibird, and Farfetch'd ):). People need to just realize Mega Kangaskhan isn't a god send that can utterly destroy teams. It can, but so could Garchomp and Kyurem-B, but those are both held back because of various reasons. Same with Kangaskhan, Physical walls and Rocky Helmet / Iron Barbs both end it in two turns, while most Fighting-types can easily take it on and kill it. I mean, look at Conkeldurr:
252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Conkeldurr: 240-283 (75 - 88.4%)
meanwhile it gets killed by Drain Punch:
252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 342-404 (97.4 - 115%)
Certainly Mega Kangaskhan is good, but it isn't soo overwhelming and game breaking.
/endpost
I use Iron Fist Conkeldurr as a means to counter him when he is not boosted with Power Up Punch. Also, it can revenge kill him witch Mach Punch if his HP is below 70. I exploit Conkeldurr's typing as a means against those players who do not use Jolly for speed because of the "insurance" of Sucker Punch that supposedly obviates the need against speed ties.
I like using a support gengar + an offensive mega such as lucario on the same team. Gengar willo wisps and walls any khan not using crunch, and if it has crunch then it isn't as dangerous to non-ghosts. Since there's clearly no counter for kangaskhan because of the fire punch / crunch / eq / seismic toss options, it's best to just have a willo wisp ghost and 2 other checks on every team.
Won't Terrakion end up dying to Earthquake if MKhan predicts the switch? He'd be a great revenge killer, but not a counter.
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 381-450 (117.5 - 138.8%)
252+ Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 428-506 (121.9 - 144.1%)
It can revenge kill, but it can't switch in without a burn present.
252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 102-122 (31.5 - 37.7%)
+1 252+ Atk burned Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 77-91 (23.8 - 28.1%)
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 153-180 (47.3 - 55.7%)
CLEAN 2HKO! That right there is pure power. I think this also verifies that Adamant should be ran at all times.
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Terrakion is nice and all but then we'll also get seismic toss Mama Khan. All coverage thrown out the window, Seismic Toss ignores the attack stat too so I'd wager we'd start to see max speed and some bulk invested Kangs. Seismic Toss ensures damn near everything cant counter as they're all 2HKO'd by Seismic Toss regardless of type or stats, and Crunch/Sucker Punch (why not run both?) handles all ghosts. Substitute/Wish because why the hell not, and theres your ubers MKhan.
Jolly Mega Kangaskhan beats both Gliscor and Hippowdon. +2 Return OHKO's Gliscor. You miss the OHKO on 252/252+ Hippowdon, but it's not like he's OHKO'ing back.
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Assuming no Air Balloon on Terrakion, of course.
Beating Timid Hydregion, tying Jolly Salamence and Timid Volcarona, Beating Jolly Lucario before it mega-evolves.
Most of those `mon resist the Sucker Punch and OHKO back. (Timid Specs Draco Meteor OHKOs. Jolly (Mega)Lucario Close Combat.
I faced a Khan that survived with a good amount of HP left. Not sure if it was fast or bulky.
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 309-364 (88 - 103.7%)
I should say, OHKO-chance. With a serious HP / Sp. Def investment, Khan survives. Still, I think its a critical speed tier.
I should say, OHKO-chance. With a serious HP / Sp. Def investment, Khan survives. Still, I think its a critical speed tier.
I don't know about Hydreigon being a meta relevant threat anymore. Maybe I have underestimated Hydreigon in the Gen 6 meta too, but it seems is does not seem to thrive in this environment due to the advent of specially bulky fairies who resist its special power moves due to stats and typing, and even its nifty Superpower. Not to mention the existence of Genesect exploiting that Dark weakness.
Kangashkan is one reason why I use Conkeldurr who can beat it one on one. I do not know how obscure it is.
Figured I would post here too to let everyone know. I'm writing the Kangaskhan preview (basically a mini analysis while we wait for Poke Bank), and last night I decided to make Crunch the primary slash before Earthquake. I'm pretty sure this has been a topic of discussion in this thread, so i would like to explain my reasoning. The reasons for using Crunch can basically be broken down into two elements: 1) Crunch hits more of Mega Kangaskhan's counters and checks than Earthquake does for super effective or neutral damage, and 2) Aegislash (the main reason for using Earthquake in the first place) also gets 2HKOed by Sucker Punch, which does not activate King's Shield (meaning your Attack will not fall).
In my experience using Mega Kangaskhan, I have found that a majority of the time, I have wished I was using Crunch. Often times people will be switching in their specially defensive Trevenant into my Kangaskhan, and there is nothing I can do to stop them besides hitting them with a weak Earthquake. The best case scenario, if I'm smart, is to not Mega Evolve and hit it with a Return on the switch. However, this does not work for Gourgeist, who can simply tank a Return on the switch, a second Return the next turn, and then Will-O-Wisp. The same can be said for Sub Disable Gengar, which can switch in on any of Mega Kangaskhan's moves, disable Sucker Punch, and proceed to 2HKO with Focus Blast / Sludge Bomb. These Pokemon have no business beating Mega Kangaskhan. Trevenant and Gengar have terrible defenses, and it is shameful that Kangaskhan has to watch out for their switch-ins. But Ghosts aren't the only thing that Crunch can hit. A +2 Crunch will be hitting Skarmory for more HP than it can Roost back, finally giving Mega Kangaskhan a way to wear it down. The battle that finally made me decide that Crunch was a superior option to Earthquake was this one: a stall v stall match where my opponent had both Trevenant and Skarmory (please ignore my shit rank, I really fucked up that alt early on >_>). If I had Crunch instead of Earthquake in that match, I would have been able to win much more easily. Instead, I had to play over 100 turns trying to wear down his Skarmory, and Mega Kangaskhan didn't even end up sweeping.
Now, to address the second point, I know people will say something along the lines of "but Aegislash now becomes a better Kangaskhan check because you can't hit it with Earthquake. besides, it's more common than those other Ghosts," and while the latter argument is true, I don't think it is reason enough to run Earthquake. As for the first point, I'm not sure is PS! has updated this mechanic yet, but Sucker Punch does not activate King's Shield. I have tested this in-game with my own Kangaskhan and can confirm this to be the case. This makes Earthquake an irrelevant choice. You can 2HKO Aegislash with an unboosted Sucker Punch and not fear lowering Mega Kangaskhan's Attack, which is exactly why people run Earthquake in the first place. So Sucker Punch basically does the job of Earthquake for you, meaning that Crunch can be used in its place.
Anyway, just thought I would let you all know and see what you thought of this change.
In my experience using Mega Kangaskhan, I have found that a majority of the time, I have wished I was using Crunch. Often times people will be switching in their specially defensive Trevenant into my Kangaskhan, and there is nothing I can do to stop them besides hitting them with a weak Earthquake. The best case scenario, if I'm smart, is to not Mega Evolve and hit it with a Return on the switch. However, this does not work for Gourgeist, who can simply tank a Return on the switch, a second Return the next turn, and then Will-O-Wisp. The same can be said for Sub Disable Gengar, which can switch in on any of Mega Kangaskhan's moves, disable Sucker Punch, and proceed to 2HKO with Focus Blast / Sludge Bomb. These Pokemon have no business beating Mega Kangaskhan. Trevenant and Gengar have terrible defenses, and it is shameful that Kangaskhan has to watch out for their switch-ins. But Ghosts aren't the only thing that Crunch can hit. A +2 Crunch will be hitting Skarmory for more HP than it can Roost back, finally giving Mega Kangaskhan a way to wear it down. The battle that finally made me decide that Crunch was a superior option to Earthquake was this one: a stall v stall match where my opponent had both Trevenant and Skarmory (please ignore my shit rank, I really fucked up that alt early on >_>). If I had Crunch instead of Earthquake in that match, I would have been able to win much more easily. Instead, I had to play over 100 turns trying to wear down his Skarmory, and Mega Kangaskhan didn't even end up sweeping.
Now, to address the second point, I know people will say something along the lines of "but Aegislash now becomes a better Kangaskhan check because you can't hit it with Earthquake. besides, it's more common than those other Ghosts," and while the latter argument is true, I don't think it is reason enough to run Earthquake. As for the first point, I'm not sure is PS! has updated this mechanic yet, but Sucker Punch does not activate King's Shield. I have tested this in-game with my own Kangaskhan and can confirm this to be the case. This makes Earthquake an irrelevant choice. You can 2HKO Aegislash with an unboosted Sucker Punch and not fear lowering Mega Kangaskhan's Attack, which is exactly why people run Earthquake in the first place. So Sucker Punch basically does the job of Earthquake for you, meaning that Crunch can be used in its place.
Anyway, just thought I would let you all know and see what you thought of this change.
Crunch is definitely the best option on Mega Kangaskhan. Against pokes like Trevenant you can freely PuP as they come in, then Mega Evolve and knock them out straight away, with +1 Crunch, leaving them without a Mega Kangaskhan counter and having to face a +1 Mega Kangaskhan at full health (that's not a situation you want to be in, trust me). EQ has redundant coverage with PuP as well against Rock/Steel types, but PuP/Crunch/Return/Sucker Punch gives flawless coverage, a powerful STAB, a boosting move that inflicts damage and powerful priority. Best set overall, not counting the defensive Wish set with Seismic Toss and Knock Off.
Hydreigon's Specs Dark Pulse is more powerful than ever, now that Steels fail to resist. I've found it a perfectly good late-game sweeper once the fairy is dead, since I can just spam Dark Pulse ftw now. Specs Draco Meteor is a rare sight now, but threatening the Specs Meteor while going for the U-Turn builds momentum for teams.
Its a perfectly fine pokemon in this meta.
Aegislash has very threatening Swords Dance and Automatize sets, and giving them a free turn to setup by relying on Sucker Punch seems like a bad idea. High HP Aegislash may be banking on weakness policy + Automatize to OHKO you for example. They'll be pleasantly surprised when the Sucker Punch fails to activate, and you're stuck against a +2 Speed Weakness Policy Aegislash, who's about to be hit with Sucker Punch to turn it into a +2 Speed +2 Atk +2 Sp. Atk Aegislash.
That said, I think Crunch is an important tool for Khan, more important than Sucker Punch actually. Crunch is needed for Sub / Disable Gengar and other ghosts as you said. Sucker Punch is useful to threaten slow Talonflames with faster Priority, Starmie, and Alakazam. However, Khan is more than bulky enough to take a hit from these threats, and simply OHKO with Return.
I'd be that it'd be Crunch / Sucker Punch, Crunch SHOULD be main slash IMO, but against Sucker Punch.
Earthquake is more than useful than just against Aegislash. Terrakion is a post-Pokebank Threat for instance. Power-up Punch is a 2HKO vs Terrakion, while Earthquake OHKOs. Scarf Heatran also fears the Earthquake, but probably gets a hit off if you are relying on PuP.
PuP fails to OHKO threats as weak as 0/0 Lucario, Kanga will instead find itself relying on Earthquake for that clean OHKO.
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Earthquake is only a 2HKO on Aegislash regardless, so the point abut it using Mega Kangaskhan to set up is irrelevant, both do the same damage (not t mention that the Autotomize set doesn't run HP, so it actually has a very high chance of being OHKOed by Sucker Punch, meaning setting up on Mega Kangaskhan is pointless. Terrakion is KOed by PuP + Sucker Punch, so it can't really switch into Mega Kangaskhan anyway. Adamant Mega Kangaskhan shouldn't stay in on Lucario anyway, for fear that it might be Mega (Timid / Jolly outspeeds Adamant Kanga), so I don't know why you'd bring up that.
Sucker Punch is abslutely necessary to deal with faster threats. Kangaskhan's base 100 Speed is only as good as it is because it has Sucker Punch so that it can afford to run Adamant. Otherwise you lose to faster, powerful threats such as Specs Noivern, Latios, Banded Garchomp, etc. So no, Crunch should not be slashed with Sucker Punch.
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