Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

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Don Honchkrorleone

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Then switch in a ghost, as you see that Khan has mega evolved, and eat up that return.

I don't use dusclops to specifically counter khan, but remember, in the past mons like Keldeo were responsible for things like Gastrodon existing in OU.
Please, don't generalize. No human being thinks the same way. All we get into different conclusions based on different reasonings. Just because one or two players made that mistake doesn't mean that all will too. And if you keep thinking that all players will do it then don't cry if regular Kanga chips a ton of your Ghost's HP with Return or Seismic Toss, kill it, then mega evolve and destroy the rest of your team.
 
MY vote: OU, Heres why, Unlike Megas like Tranitar or Garchomp, M Kangaskhan amazing attack stat comes from an ability. A ghost type(sucker punch wont work) with Mean Look, Skill Swap and Will O Wisp will change m Kangaskhans base Attack stat to the 60's. While 100 speed is good, its gets outsped by 100 or so (not including speed boost) Pokemon, assuming it has the right Ev's. Mega kangaskhan Attack is also outclassed by Mawile(who has sucker punch as well). Parental bond in terms of power , is out classed by huge power, Parental bond is good for getting 2nd crits and breaking Subsitute and Focus Sash, but if you do break a sub you won't be guarenteed a KO as the 2nd does only 50%. Then again you might be under a few power Up punches. All in all while scary in OU, Its not scary in Uber unlike speed boost Blaziken who still can be pretty scary (PS SMOGON, BRING BLAZE BLAZIKEN A TIER DOWN). Personally (even though i just said its scary in OU) every time in a battle when a M Kangaskhan appears, Im not all that scared. I even had an 252 Hp, 252 Def M alakazam who destroyed one, M Alakazam traced Parental Bond. M kangaskhan used sucker punch. It failed becaused I used barrier. M Kangaskhan used sucker punch. My alakazam lived because of barrier then I OHKO Kangaskhan with a Psychic because of parental bond being traced by Alakazam. My opinion has been settled: OU
 
This is probably the most unnecessary tiering thread in the history of Smogon. I can't even see how you can defend this thing being OU if you have ever played gen 6 for even a day.

What other Pokemon do you know can Power-Up Punch a Landorus switch in at +0, take the Intimidate, eat up the Earthquake, and STILL OHKO it with Return?
 
I do not feel like Mega Kangas should be banned.
There are just too many things out there that can check him and he also has several counters.
Most of the things that people consider "hard countering" Mega Kanga can only do so with setup, and there are only a few (namely the Levitating Ghosts, and Sableye). If Kanga is running Crunch, even the Ghosts cannot stop her if she has had the opportunity to get off a Power-Up Punch.

A lot of teams are already running these without even keeping Mega Kangas in mind (ferrorthorn, swagkey, etc).
Due to the fact that most teams have 1 or 2 answers for Mega Kangaskhan without even having to make adjustments I believe it is sitting in the right spot.
Ferrothorn isn't an answer to Mega Kanga, it's quite literally a thorn in its side. Most of the people posting in this thread are describing their encounters in a 6v6 format, most Kanga users aren't going to blindly Power-Up Punch into something most likely carrying Rocky Helmet along with Iron Barbs.

His base stats are good but not godly, rocky helmet is everywhere, WoW got a boost, we are in a competitive scene where there are plenty of priority move users and just about any trickster user shuts it down.
Why is it do you think Rocky Helmet is everywhere? Kanga changed the entire meta of the sixth generation, people are solely running Rocky Helmet for Mega Kanga. If Kanga is running Facade, even Will-O-Wisp won't stop it. To be honest, part of me thinks you're trolling.
 
You could make the case that MegaKangaskhan is one of (if not the best pokemon) in Pokebank OU and deserves to be banned. I am going to elaborate on what I believe to be the grossly under-represented side: that it should be OU.


It absolutely disgusts me how many people think Kangaskhanite should be banned for the wrong reasons. Not having counters/having counters has got nothing to do with warranting a ban. Demolishing walls after you let it set up does not warrant a ban. Incentivising you to run something you didn't used to run (Rocky Helmet instead of Leftovers) does not warrant a ban. MegaKangaskhan doesn't always know what you're going to swap in (or stay in) and can't always predict the right move to use, it doesn't spam Return and hit everything Super Effective. It also has 4MSS but even if it had 8 moves the point is that sometimes it tries to Scrappy PuP (predicting your ghost switch-in) and instead you just stayed in and attacked it, killing it or at least chunking it hard enough that you can now revenge kill it. Sometimes it tries to Crunch the incoming ghost and instead you brought in Terrakion. The reality is that 99% of the people on the pro-ban side have no idea why this thing deserves a ban, and frankly don't know how to play pokemon.

The main reason I think that Kangaskhanite should be left OU is that none of my teams ever run something niche to beat it. MegaKangaskhan is one of the many large threats in Pokebank OU and I don't have more trouble with it than the others. I honestly have more trouble with niche things like Tornadus-T, Deoxys', Rotom-W, etc because these are pokemon you either need something very specific to stop, or pokemon that you can't 'stop' doing what they do because they're just great at their jobs. Meanwhile the tools you use to beat MegaKangaskhan teams are the same tools that are simply good in general. Pokemon like Ferrothorn/Garchomp with RockyHelmet/IronBarbs/RoughSkin are just great pokemon in this metagame. Ghosts with Substitute/WoW are just great pokemon in this metagame. Revenge killers with Extremespeed/other fast priority/scarfers like Genesect are just great pokemon in this metagame. There are plenty of other pokemon that can run away with the game if you give them a turn to set up, or you didn't keep your best checks healthy enough, or you made one bad decision. With team preview there is no excuse to not know which pokemon you need to keep healthy, or how dumb it is to lock into a choiced move early, or any similar setup fodder.

I just don't see how being the best pokemon, or having the best risk/reward, or whatever means that it is suddenly ban worthy. I am under the impression that we only ban things that truly break the game, rendering it unplayable as it was intended to be unless we all run said pokemon. Mewtwo is the classic case of this, you bring Mewtwo on your RBY team or you lose to any good player with Mewtwo on their team. Anyone who thinks MegaKangaskhan is that level of mandatory is crazy as you can witness people above 1850 constantly winning games without MegaKang against teams with MegaKang.

I think DPP Gyarados is incredibly similar to MegaKangaskhan. The Waterfall/Return/Taunt/DD set could always find a way to come in and get off a DD or two, and then run away with the game. It was too strong, too bulky, too fast, had a bunch of viable items, and it's typing was too good. This was DPP, there was no Ferrothorn, the best checks were things like Skarmory with Whirlwind and Taunt turned them all into setup fodder. Nothing could consistently stop him and if he somehow didn't get to set up you still had to fear StoneEdge/IceFang/Bounce coming out of left field to blow by your supposed answer. He was easily one of if not the best pokemon in DPP and played soooo similarly to how MegaKangaskhan plays today that I honestly find the MegaKang tears hilarious.


TLDR: Kangaskhanite should be OU because the tools you use to beat it are the same tools you run to beat everything else. To me banning Kangaskhanite is akin to banning Gyarados in DPP. Yes, its a fearsome sweeper that often runs away with the game, but ban-worthy? Please.
Rotom-w is niche XD... anyways...

Without Khan, rocky helmet wouldn't even be in the game. While I agree that people are assuming that somehow it magically takes no damage, its not as if the Khan user is brainless either.

However when it comes to making a team, it is always in the back of your mind, (knowing the few limitations)when you select any attacker your thinking damn, khan can probably do better in a given situation than this poke more often than not. And that is largely the case for any physical attacker.

Defensively, I would never run a sableye, or a coffin, just to counter khan, it is too much of a liability against a standard team. But you must have a core or 2-3 pokes that you must pivot around for khan. Simply because, in any given moment khan gets the job done more often than any other poke.

While it is not invincible it is more reliable than any one mon should be.
 
Please, don't generalize. No human being thinks the same way. All we get into different conclusions based on different reasonings. Just because one or two players made that mistake doesn't mean that all will too. And if you keep thinking that all players will do it then don't cry if regular Kanga chips a ton of your Ghost's HP with Return or Seismic Toss, kill it, then mega evolve and destroy the rest of your team.
I never switch my ghost into non Mega Khan for fear of that reason. (i play pokebank) What i do do, is set up with whatever i have on the field, such as DD d-nite, who gives 0 craps about about seismic toss, and can predict around sucker punch. (also, Dnite only takes 100 damge w/ out parental bond, before somebody thinks that it would take 200.) M-Khan is about as hard to play around as Keldeo last gen, or even salamence in DPP, who was Uber banned.
 
Also, is this about banning Kangaskhan as a whole, or are we banning Kangaskhan too? Because it made sense Gengar was separately tiered from its Mega because they were both good and did different things. But without Kangaskhanite, Kangaskhan is pretty crap.
This would be an item ban. Standard Gengar isn't broken by any means, while standard speed-boost Blaziken was decidecly OU by the Council. Kangaskan is terribad without it's mega.
 
I never switch my ghost into non Mega Khan for fear of that reason. (i play pokebank) What i do do, is set up with whatever i have on the field, such as DD d-nite, who gives 0 craps about about seismic toss, and can predict around sucker punch.
a unboost return would just kill you with rocks...
 
Ban M-Kangaskhan, post-haste.

Pretty much all that I would say here has already been said. One of the most broken abilities in Pokemon's history; a ridiculous stat-spread that allows to hit hard, fast, and take a lot of hits ALL AT THE SAME TIME; having the options to pretty much have no counters whatsoever; and forcing all players to prepare very unorthodox "checks," lest it get rid of you in an instant.
 
a unboost return would just kill you with rocks...
Khan wouldn't be mega, expecting dusclops or sableye, or even Gengar to take the field. Return bounces off Dnite from a non-mega Khan. Normal Khan sucks, aside making limited use of scappy to catch frail ghosts off guard. Its prediction. Also: note that i said non-mega khan.
 
Been waiting on this thread for a long time. Made this account JUST for this to be banned

Just scrolling through the first page shows me that people don't understand the versatility and power of Mega Kangaskhan. To begin, I'm going to go through some of my "favorite" arguements so far:

"Mega Khan is countered by X" (X being a random poke)
No it isn't. The only HARD COUNTER is Cofagrigus, which takes its ability, prevents set-up, and Will-O-Wisps. Other things can check it, but nothing is surviving +2 return that isn't immune.

"Stall users win every time"
Not quite. Although the Sucker Punch + Fake out set is common, Another popular set is PuP, Crunch, Return, and EQ, shitting down stall's throat.

"Mega Khan would suck in ubers." (Haven't seen this yet but I'm gonna go ahead and handle it.)
First off, that statement is untrue, as it functions just fine in ubers. Second, and I can't say this enough on showdown, UBERS IS A BANLIST FIRST, THEN A TIER.


I think this needs a ban, more-so than Gengar did. This thing sets up with what is essentially a 60 base power Swords dance. It then proceeds to absolutely demolish you, whether with or without priority. It literally centralizes the meta-game into using Rocky helmet residual damage abusers (Rough Skin Chomp, Iron Barbs Ferro, ect.) or Cofagrigus. This thing has way too much to keep this meta-game balanced, between natural bulk and absolute sweeping power. It just needs to go so the OU meta can be stable once more.

I'll see you at the Lucarionite thread
 
I never switch my ghost into non Mega Khan for fear of that reason. (i play pokebank) What i do do, is set up with whatever i have on the field, such as DD d-nite, who gives 0 craps about about seismic toss, and can predict around sucker punch.
Can you walk me through this situation…is DDnite already on the field and MKang switches into him? Or is DDnite switching into MKang?
 
I never switch my ghost into non Mega Khan for fear of that reason. (i play pokebank) What i do do, is set up with whatever i have on the field, such as DD d-nite, who gives 0 craps about about seismic toss, and can predict around sucker punch. (also, Dnite only takes 100 damge w/ out parental bond, before somebody thinks that it would take 200.) M-Khan is about as hard to play around as Keldeo last gen, or even salamence in DPP, who was Uber banned.
So...you are keeping your Tyranitar in on a Kangaskhan?

It's nice if you have a DD Dragonite with Multiscale intact in, but what kind of good player switches their Kangaskhan into that anyways? They wait for the opening, and they smack you.

Khan wouldn't be mega, expecting dusclops or sableye, or even Gengar to take the field. Return bounces off Dnite from a non-mega Khan. Normal Khan sucks, aside making limited use of scappy to catch frail ghosts off guard. Its prediction.
So...you're using a Sableye in order to make it so that Mega Kanga won't be so quick to Mega up? Most players (ie: dumb ladderers) will Mega first anyways.

And if I were the Kanga user, again, I wouldn't be trying to set up on Dragonite.
 
Something I've been wondering.

What if maybe, just maybe, the rumors about the little hexagon thing ingame which only Kalos-bred mons would have meant that only those mons would be able to be used in official tournament formats.

If this were true, this would mean Mega Mom would lose a couple of important moves. Wish, Fire Punch, Seismic Toss would be unavailable and thus make Mega Mom easier to counter because it would only be able to run the standard Return/PUP/Sucker Punch with Earthquake or Crunch as a fourth move.

Would this mean that Mega Mom would be able to be more easily countered/checked and stay OU?

Now, this is just speculation since I have no idea how things will work in reality post-bank. And I don't even know if Smogon would bother to follow a "Kalos bred only" rule on simulators. As of now, I still think Mega Mom is too good for OU, but what if what I said happens?
 
MY vote: OU, Heres why, Unlike Megas like Tranitar or Garchomp, M Kangaskhan amazing attack stat comes from an ability. A ghost type(sucker punch wont work) with Mean Look, Skill Swap and Will O Wisp will change m Kangaskhans base Attack stat to the 60's. While 100 speed is good, its gets outsped by 100 or so (not including speed boost) Pokemon, assuming it has the right Ev's. Mega kangaskhan Attack is also outclassed by Mawile(who has sucker punch as well). Parental bond in terms of power , is out classed by huge power, Parental bond is good for getting 2nd crits and breaking Subsitute and Focus Sash, but if you do break a sub you won't be guarenteed a KO as the 2nd does only 50%. Then again you might be under a few power Up punches. All in all while scary in OU, Its not scary in Uber unlike speed boost Blaziken who still can be pretty scary (PS SMOGON, BRING BLAZE BLAZIKEN A TIER DOWN). Personally (even though i just said its scary in OU) every time in a battle when a M Kangaskhan appears, Im not all that scared. I even had an 252 Hp, 252 Def M alakazam who destroyed one, M Alakazam traced Parental Bond. M kangaskhan used sucker punch. It failed becaused I used barrier. M Kangaskhan used sucker punch. My alakazam lived because of barrier then I OHKO Kangaskhan with a Psychic because of parental bond being traced by Alakazam. My opinion has been settled: OU
I don't think a maximum defensive investment Mega Alakazam with Barrier is a good example of why Mega Kangaskhan isn't broken... Also, just because Mega Kangaskhan doesn't have the strongest attack or the best speed in the world, that doesn't mean it's not broken.
 
Been waiting on this thread for a long time. Made this account JUST for this to be banned

Just scrolling through the first page shows me that people don't understand the versatility and power of Mega Kangaskhan. To begin, I'm going to go through some of my "favorite" arguements so far:

"Mega Khan is countered by X" (X being a random poke)
No it isn't. The only HARD COUNTER is Cofagrigus, which takes its ability, prevents set-up, and Will-O-Wisps. Other things can check it, but nothing is surviving +2 return that isn't immune.

"Stall users win every time"
Not quite. Although the Sucker Punch + Fake out set is common, Another popular set is PuP, Crunch, Return, and EQ, shitting down stall's throat.

"Mega Khan would suck in ubers." (Haven't seen this yet but I'm gonna go ahead and handle it.)
First off, that statement is untrue, as it functions just fine in ubers. Second, and I can't say this enough on showdown, UBERS IS A BANLIST FIRST, THEN A TIER.


I think this needs a ban, more-so than Gengar did. This thing sets up with what is essentially a 60 base power Swords dance. It then proceeds to absolutely demolish you, whether with or without priority. It literally centralizes the meta-game into using Rocky helmet residual damage abusers (Rough Skin Chomp, Iron Barbs Ferro, ect.) or Cofagrigus. This thing has way too much to keep this meta-game balanced, between natural bulk and absolute sweeping power. It just needs to go so the OU meta can be stable once more.

I'll see you at the Lucarionite thread
WE BANNED MGAR CAUSE OF IT'S ABILITY TO LET OTHERS SWEEP, NOT IT'S SWEEPING ABILITY, AND THE ONLY REASON WE ARE CONSIDERING BANNING KHAN IS BECAUSE OF IT'S POWER. LUC WOULD NEVER GET BANNED BECAUSE ITS IS:

A.) Not so powerful it is in question, like Khan
B.) Can't freely pick off counters to let others sweep like M-Gar

In writing this I have realized that Khans sheer power (lol ability) maybe does make him ban worthy, even with his revenge killers everywhere, but that it is his ability to just kill something with sheer brute force, and also that Luc won't get banned. Undecided still on Khan, gonna lurk now.
 
Something I've been wondering.

What if maybe, just maybe, the rumors about the little hexagon thing ingame which only Kalos-bred mons would have meant that only those mons would be able to be used in official tournament formats.

If this were true, this would mean Mega Mom would lose a couple of important moves. Wish, Fire Punch, Seismic Toss would be unavailable and thus make Mega Mom easier to counter because it would only be able to run the standard Return/PUP/Sucker Punch with Earthquake or Crunch as a fourth move.

Would this mean that Mega Mom would be able to be more easily countered/checked and stay OU?

Now, this is just speculation since I have no idea how things will work in reality post-bank. And I don't even know if Smogon would bother to follow a "Kalos bred only" rule on simulators. As of now, I still think Mega Mom is too good for OU, but what if what I said happens?
Wow, i think your right.
 
i'm never in favor of banning any non legendary pokemon.

So with that context being said: M kang >>>>> M gengar.

A few things I noticed people saying that I feel is wrong:

Why are people using crunch with Mkang? She gets knock off, which is stronger than crunch when they carry an item, which is always. You dont miss out on any 2hkos against ghosts. So rocky helmet counters is only a thing because the M-kangaskhan you're facing is too lazy to look up knock-off. Stop using it for mkang, it's a losing battle as the future develops.

Kangaskhan gets wish and protect. Thats kinda funny.

Dragonite is an example of a non fighting pokemon that can revenge kill because of Marvel Scale.
You can kinda play around kangaskhan carrying a dark move with a ghost if you carry a ghost and an intimidate user. Pray they dont catch on your switching.
 
I believe currently, it needs to go to Uber.


The main things that can counter him are:
Sub-Gengar
Trevenant
Sableye

252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 624-736 (150.7 - 177.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 384-452 (92.7 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Lucario is also a great counter to him as he can get in a hit, and finish her off with the Extremespeed or Bullet Punch.

Right now, there definitely needs to be a ban, but after more people are playing Pokebank rules, things might change as we find more counters.
I play almost exclusively pokebank, and Mega Khan is still an absolute destroyer. First off, None of those things actually counter, as a counter is defined as a switch in that can survive hits and deliver heavy damage/cripple said pokemon. All three of those get wrecked by +2 crunch, as more people are carrying non-priority sets. Lucario is a great CHECK, but can't switch in on EQ or PuP
 
WE BANNED MGAR CAUSE OF IT'S ABILITY TO LET OTHERS SWEEP, NOT IT'S SWEEPING ABILITY, AND THE ONLY REASON WE ARE CONSIDERING BANNING KHAN IS BECAUSE OF IT'S POWER. LUC WOULD NEVER GET BANNED BECAUSE ITS IS:

A.) Not so powerful it is in question, like Khan
B.) Can't freely pick off counters to let others sweep like M-Gar
Not the point right now, we'll have this discussion when it's due
 
i'm never in favor of banning any non legendary pokemon.

So with that context being said: M kang >>>>> M gengar.

A few things I noticed people saying that I feel is wrong:

Why are people using crunch with Mkang? She gets knock off, which is stronger than crunch when they carry an item, which is always. You dont miss out on any 2hkos against ghosts. So rocky helmet counters is only a thing because the M-kangaskhan you're facing is too lazy to look up knock-off. Stop using it for mkang, it's a losing battle as the future develops.

Kangaskhan gets wish and protect. Thats kinda funny.

Dragonite is an example of a non fighting pokemon that can revenge kill because of Marvel Scale.
You can kinda play around kangaskhan carrying a dark move with a ghost if you carry a ghost and an intimidate user. Pray they dont catch on your switching.
Actually, I believe in the Kangaskhan thread, someone tried to tutor Knock Off in 4th gen to a Kangaskhan and it didn't work. So, Knock Off is not a viable move for Mega Kangaskhan.
 

Rurushu

Sleepless Strategist
is a Past WCoP Champion
On paper she's not that strong; having few reliable counters/revenge killers isn't something new, and while she surely has more bulk than we're used to in a offensive pokemon she also has a not-so-good-typing.

My issue with her is how much she can do in a single turn or with a single moveslot. Solid (and as some might argue, broken) pokemons such as Lucario and Genesect have to "waste" a moveslot in order to use a not so strong priority which doesn't offer much in terms of coverage. MegaKhan on the other hand has a priority (albeit not as reliable as bullet punch/extremespeed) which also double as a high-bp coverage move and also breaks substitute as a bonus. Power-Up-Punch adds insult to the injury, doing in one moveslot and one turn what would otherwise require two moveslots and two turns. That's what makes her difficult to counter, not her stats or sheer power, but the fact that it's hard to keep up with her when she effectively gets free turns and does with 3 moveslots what top tier pokémons struggle to do with their entire movepool.
 

Shroomisaur

Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
It figures this thread would go up while I'm making dinner, and then I come back to find it has 8 pages already. >.>

Regardless, I'm glad to see this thing finally got a tiering discussion. The actual Kangaskahn discussion thread had turned into "Kangaskahn vs. the world" damage calculations showcasing its incredible power. It read mostly as a series of posts saying, "Kangaskahn should be banned but I'm not allowed to say that so I'll just not-so-subtly hint at it instead"!

As many people have noted, Mega Kangaskahn is THE most broken Pokemon of Gen VI. I've been very active in the discussion thread, so I feel like I don't have much left to say. Every possible answer to Megakahn has been discussed. There's nothing else left for me to say here other than Kangaskahnite should be banned. I'll just give the ultimate tl;dr:

1. Kangaskahn has few checks, zero true counters, and can 2HKO 99% of the tier.

2. In teambuilding, you are pidgeonholed into running 2-3 of these specific Pokemon to check/revenge Megakahn, greatly limiting your choices especially on offensive teams.

3. Mega Kangaskahn has incredible power and the bulk to pull off a sweep, requires no support to function on any team, and actually provides support to its team.

4. Did I mention this mother is insane?

In all seriousness, I've been eagerly awaiting this thread. I stopped abusing this thing weeks ago in preparation for the inevitable, and I'll be perfectly happy to say goodbye.
 
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