Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

[Ash Borer]

It does NOT OHKO breloom, conkledurr, or lucario the 3 most common priority fighting users.

who cares. Kangs is still completely functional spamming return or sucker punch instead of trying to set up. If you need to weaken kangato check it, but what kanga is staring down before you bring in your fighting check is KOd by return, or sucker punch, youre in a bad spot arent you.

 

[Mishy]

I do not feel like Mega Kangas should be banned.
There are just too many things out there that can check him and he also has several counters.

A lot of teams are already running these without even keeping Mega Kangas in mind (ferrorthorn, swagkey, etc).
Due to the fact that most teams have 1 or 2 answers for Mega Kangaskhan without even having to make adjustments I believe it is sitting in the right spot.

His base stats are good but not godly, rocky helmet is everywhere, WoW got a boost, we are in a competitive scene where there are plenty of priority move users and just about any trickster user shuts it down.

 

[Jukain]

This is the quick-ban period, where only clearly broken things is considered for a ban. The same thing happened at the beginning of last gen, with Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Manaphy, and others being sent straight to ubers.

Nope. They were suspect tested, albeit at the very beginning of the generation. Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Deoxys-A, and Deoxys-N were the only R1 bans, too (besides the obvious initial banlist).

SuperMeep arguing assumptions is a waste of time unless something is blatantly wrong (i.e. accounting for ridiculous amounts of hazards/not on one side). In this case, it doesn't matter what you assume. Also, it is (1) stronger than everything else, for the most part, and (2) has barely any checks, let alone counters, unlike you typical Pokemon.

 

[Ryolain]

It gets a free kill as oftenly as any mon left in front of a sweeper who has just set up and has neutral coverage.

The difference is that those other sweepers don't have a way to deal with literally every single other check that's going to switch into it except one. Most of the time that a sweeper gets a free turn to set up, it's because it forced a switch. You make heavy reference to Mach Punchers, but those absolutely require you to sacrifice something to MKang to work. They cannot switch in immediately and KO before MKang KOs them.

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

I believe Mega-Kangaskhan should stay in OU. This is not because I do not believe is broken, but rather I because I do not have enough evidence to conclude otherwise. The argument I hear most often (with every suspect test) is the number of counters it has, but I believe this is a case of a pokemon that is relatively easy to play around. Sucker Punch is as unreliable as priority gets. Till now, I've had no problem playing around it and I'm going to tell you why this example of anecdotal evidence is ok for this discussion: we have little objective data. We have not had a suspect test, we have not had objective usage data and most importantly we have not had time for even our anecdotal evidence to solidify. In the case of the other two bans, I can conceive of the possibility that they were obviously broken, but I cannot for this one. Theorymon before the metagame has settled is useless - we do not know what the legitimate threats are, what pokemon can counter certain threats while performing other useful functions; we aren't even sure what pokemon will have what moves after breeding! All we have is individual anecdotal evidence, and in my experience it isn't obviously broken.

I'll give you a good way to find evidence, my friend:

1: Go to Pokémon Showdown
2: Make a team without Sableye, Rocky Helmet Garchomp and Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn
2.1: Don't use crap that you wouldn't use in standard play like Dusclops and Entrainment Durant
3: Face a decent player using Mega Kangaskhan
4: Survive and tell the experience

I think Kangaskhanite should get the boot. It's too overcentralizing, bulky and powerful, and requires almost no support to be used effectively. Most of the pro-ban users, such as Halcyon and Arcticblast, have solid and extremely valid points that through experience are proven truth and that also spare me for ranting why it's broken. I saw someone mentioning that Dusclops counters it, and if someone using Dusclops to counter Megaskhan is not a signal of how broken that thing is then call me Susie.

 

[SuperMeep]

who cares. Kangs is still completely functional spamming return or sucker punch instead of trying to set up. If you need to weaken kangato check it, but what kanga is staring down before you bring in your fighting check is KOd by return, or sucker punch, youre in a bad spot arent you.

Your kidding right? You opt to ban him, but then when i present a reason it is easy to revenge it, you go who cares? Khan doesn't 0HKO much without support.

 

[SuperMeep]

The difference is that those other sweepers don't have a way to deal with literally every single other check that's going to switch into it except one. Most of the time that a sweeper gets a free turn to set up, it's because it forced a switch. You make heavy reference to Mach Punchers, but those absolutely require you to sacrifice something to MKang to work. They cannot switch in immediately and KO before MKang KOs them.

Then switch in a ghost, as you see that Khan has mega evolved, and eat up that return.

I don't use dusclops to specifically counter khan, but remember, in the past mons like Keldeo were responsible for things like Gastrodon existing in OU.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Text

Text

I do not think Mega Kanga is overwhelming enough for a ban yet...and definitely not ready for a quick ban in my opinion. I'm kinda on the fence after seeing it in action though. A test period would definitely solidify my opinion.

I personally feel that Mega Mawile is much more terrifying to fight. Speaking of the deceiver...Intimidate Mawile -> Mega Mawile can give Mega Kanga some trouble as well. Adamant 252 Atk Mawile-Mega's Brick Break vs 0 HP/4 Def Kangaskhan-Mega (308 - 364 HP) Damage: 87.75% - 103.7%. 100% OHKO after rocks.

Mega Lucario after a Protect to go Mega will easily OHKO her without trouble as long as Luc does not switch-in on Power-Up Punch/EQ.

Heck, any fighting type with a decent attack and defense with 100< Speed or a Choice Scarf will easily take Mega Kanga down with a CC.

There are many more situations that I'd need to see before I would want to ban Mega Kanga.

Also, why are people saying Power-Up Punch is 60 BP with Mega Kanga? Its basically 40 + 1/2 * 40 * 1.5 (Attack raise) = 70 BP, on the initial turn anyway.

 

[Orga777]

Your kidding right? You opt to ban him, but then when i present a reason it is easy to revenge it, you go who cares? Khan doesn't 0HKO much without support.

You mean like a whole lot of other Uber pokemon?

 

[Yilx]

Here we go again.

 

[salamences]

Until you realize that Mega-Kangaskhan has 120 BP Priority in the form of Parental Bond Sucker Punch. Add that and watch that list suddenly become a whole lot shorter.

since when has sucker punch been such a make it or break it move in tiering? it's easy to predict, has only 7PP, and is basically free setup if you have any pink matter abover the neckline. if she sucker punches with no PuP investment it's probably not going to even dent most things since it doesn't get stab anyways. maybe having such high damaging mons around, not just kangy, will force people not to just run in blindly swinging. there's such thing as a red card, there's such things as a skarmory, there's such things as light clay dual screen. yes she's really good, really, really good as a matter of fact, but to ban her to make it easier for yourself is just silly willy. I run fairy mono in the current OU and I have never never ONCE been swept by a m-kanga. with a fairy mono team. either I'm doing something really well or everyone here at smogon must be doing something really wrong.

 

[farranpoison]

I say Mega Mom stays OU because it makes Sableye OU viable.










HAHAHAHAHAHA ok that was funny.

TBH, when I first started playing extensively, Mega KHAAAAAAAN didn't give me much problems because I ran Sableye. But, after trying some other stuff out, and seeing that Sableye is pretty much the ONLY mon that can check Mega Mom guaranteed, that doesn't put the Mom in any good light to stay in OU.

People can say, sure, MKanga dies to priority, can get revenge killed, yada yada yada. The point is, to defeat Mega Mom, you WILL have to sacrifice something. If you have to use 2-3 of your mons just to get rid of MKanga, there is something seriously wrong.

Also, is this about banning Kangaskhan as a whole, or are we banning Kangaskhan too? Because it made sense Gengar was separately tiered from its Mega because they were both good and did different things. But without Kangaskhanite, Kangaskhan is pretty crap.

 

[SuperMeep]

You mean like a whole lot of other Uber pokemon?

no i mean things like heatran, garchomp, ttar, you know, our beloved bulky OU staples.

 

[TheTraininator]

I can't believe people are saying Mega Kang isn't broken because it is countered by Rocky Helmet Ferro and Garchomp. ROCKY HELMET FERRO/CHOMP SHOULD NOT EXIST. If Ferrothorn, one of the best physical walls in the tier, has to change its held item just to beat ONE POKEMON, you know that Pokemon is too broken.

 

[Zetta_SlowSA]

I believe currently, it needs to go to Uber.

My option to deal with it was Quagsire:
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 216-253 (54.8 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If they get max damage on the first hit, it's over. However, min-mid damage allows me to get up a Stockpile, barring any crits, and then recover, rinse and repeat, scald for the hopeful burn. However if I lose him it's over for me.
Usually I find people swapping him in on Quagsire, so I take the opportunity to get a free Stockpile in, so I can usually handle him.

The main things that can counter him are:
Sub-Gengar
Trevenant
Sableye

252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 624-736 (150.7 - 177.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 384-452 (92.7 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Lucario is also a great counter to him as he can get in a hit, and finish her off with the Extremespeed or Bullet Punch.

Right now, there definitely needs to be a ban, but after more people are playing Pokebank rules, things might change as we find more counters.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Why do we just assume khan would be at +2 with NO PRIOR DAMAGE. Thats unrealistic. What is more realistic is khan getting a power punch up, taking damage, killing something and being revenged by something like Lucario, conkledurr or breloom. Thats it. Its also about as centralizing as Keldeo was last gen. The reason we ban things is because they break the metagame. Such as M-gars ability to freely pick off mons. Khan just has a lot of power, and can break subs. If we are worried about something mediocre bulking subs then go ban Mega-Heracross, or Cloyster. Thats a reduntant point.

Gee, i dunno, maybe its because it will come in on something that cant threaten it! Its been around show that conkeldurr and breloom are unable to revenge kill even with a choice band and lucario MUST mega evolve before kangaskhan does if it doesnt want to risk getting killed by jolly kanga so your choices are a lot more limited than you think. The fact that youre going out of your way to call it ''mediocre'' clearly shows what kind of mega kangaskhan users you have been facing.

since everyone seems to be focusing on what kangaskhan hits instead of what can hit it, here's some calcs I ran through:
calcs

It has sucker punch, unless you resist it youre going down, PERIOD. All these thundurus-t, accelgor, gengar, pinsir, charizard or whatever else calcs are pointless.

You could make the case that MegaKangaskhan is one of (if not the best pokemon) in Pokebank OU and deserves to be banned. I am going to elaborate on what I believe to be the grossly under-represented side: that it should be OU.


It absolutely disgusts me how many people think Kangaskhanite should be banned for the wrong reasons. Not having counters/having counters has got nothing to do with warranting a ban. Demolishing walls after you let it set up does not warrant a ban. Incentivising you to run something you didn't used to run (Rocky Helmet instead of Leftovers) does not warrant a ban. MegaKangaskhan doesn't always know what you're going to swap in (or stay in) and can't always predict the right move to use, it doesn't spam Return and hit everything Super Effective. It also has 4MSS but even if it had 8 moves the point is that sometimes it tries to Scrappy PuP (predicting your ghost switch-in) and instead you just stayed in and attacked it, killing it or at least chunking it hard enough that you can now revenge kill it. Sometimes it tries to Crunch the incoming ghost and instead you brought in Terrakion. The reality is that 99% of the people on the pro-ban side have no idea why this thing deserves a ban, and frankly don't know how to play pokemon.

The main reason I think that Kangaskhanite should be left OU is that none of my teams ever run something niche to beat it. MegaKangaskhan is one of the many large threats in Pokebank OU and I don't have more trouble with it than the others. I honestly have more trouble with niche things like Tornadus-T, Deoxys', Rotom-W, etc because these are pokemon you either need something very specific to stop, or pokemon that you can't 'stop' doing what they do because they're just great at their jobs. Meanwhile the tools you use to beat MegaKangaskhan teams are the same tools that are simply good in general. Pokemon like Ferrothorn/Garchomp with RockyHelmet/IronBarbs/RoughSkin are just great pokemon in this metagame. Ghosts with Substitute/WoW are just great pokemon in this metagame. Revenge killers with Extremespeed/other fast priority/scarfers like Genesect are just great pokemon in this metagame. There are plenty of other pokemon that can run away with the game if you give them a turn to set up, or you didn't keep your best checks healthy enough, or you made one bad decision. With team preview there is no excuse to not know which pokemon you need to keep healthy, or how dumb it is to lock into a choiced move early, or any similar setup fodder.

I just don't see how being the best pokemon, or having the best risk/reward, or whatever means that it is suddenly ban worthy. I am under the impression that we only ban things that truly break the game, rendering it unplayable as it was intended to be unless we all run said pokemon. Mewtwo is the classic case of this, you bring Mewtwo on your RBY team or you lose to any good player with Mewtwo on their team. Anyone who thinks MegaKangaskhan is that level of mandatory is crazy as you can witness people above 1850 constantly winning games without MegaKang against teams with MegaKang.

I think DPP Gyarados is incredibly similar to MegaKangaskhan. The Waterfall/Return/Taunt/DD set could always find a way to come in and get off a DD or two, and then run away with the game. It was too strong, too bulky, too fast, had a bunch of viable items, and it's typing was too good. This was DPP, there was no Ferrothorn, the best checks were things like Skarmory with Whirlwind and Taunt turned them all into setup fodder. Nothing could consistently stop him and if he somehow didn't get to set up you still had to fear StoneEdge/IceFang/Bounce coming out of left field to blow by your supposed answer. He was easily one of if not the best pokemon in DPP and played soooo similarly to how MegaKangaskhan plays today that I honestly find the MegaKang tears hilarious.


TLDR: Kangaskhanite should be OU because the tools you use to beat it are the same tools you run to beat everything else. To me banning Kangaskhanite is akin to banning Gyarados in DPP. Yes, its a fearsome sweeper that often runs away with the game, but ban-worthy? Please.

Skarmory and ferrothorn with rocky helmet or will o wisp ghosts. Pick one, because kangaskhan fourth move will deal with the other and the rest of the team is more than ready of taking care of your choice. This is how it works, you have only two options to switch in it and kangaskhan will deal with one while the rest of the team will deal with the other. Stop comparing it to gyarados or really anything for that matter. A +2 boosting move that deals damage, a priority with only 2 resists, a monstrous stab that can do ridiculous things like ohkoing the sturdiest walls around and an excellent bulk that is on par with jirachi and celebi is something that nothing else can boast. This is such a simple thinking yet you choose to ignore it and come up with hypocritical nonsense like ''The reality is that 99% of the people on the pro-ban side have no idea why this thing deserves a ban, and frankly don't know how to play pokemon.'' Lol i dont even know what is the point of explaining yet again what should be common sense by now. There is only one real counter, there are only 5 real revenge killers (all of which are checked by pretty much the same things). Nothing is comparable to it, except fucking extreme killer itself and that should pretty much tell you how ridiculous mega kangaskhan has come to be. I dont want this gen to become the same overcentralized hole that was bw, and kangaskhan is the poster girl for overcentralization and teambuilding restrictions. You either pick something from a pathetically small list of checks or you lose.

 

[Ryolain]

Then switch in a ghost, as you see that Khan has mega evolved, and eat up that return.

I don't use dusclops to specifically counter khan, but remember, in the past mons like Keldeo were responsible for things like Gastrodon existing in OU.

And then it uses Crunch instead and you die…this is a stupid argument, I don't know why you keep using it. You're only proving that it requires multiple things on your team to play around it, and you are absolutely REQUIRED to out-predict your opponent for them to work. At this point we're no longer talking about MKang at all, because I can say that perfect prediction can allow you to be basically anything with anything else.

 

[Skyblade12]

I do not feel like Mega Kangas should be banned.
There are just too many things out there that can check him and he also has several counters.

For the past two weeks, people have been unable to name even one counter in the Mega-Kangaskhan thread, with the closest being Sableye (which burns Mega-Kangashkhan, but then dies). Name these "several", please.

A lot of teams are already running these without even keeping Mega Kangas in mind (ferrorthorn, swagkey, etc).
Due to the fact that most teams have 1 or 2 answers for Mega Kangaskhan without even having to make adjustments I believe it is sitting in the right spot.

Heh. Ferrothorn gets slammed by Mega-Kanga. It MIGHT kill it if you run Rocky Helmet (everyone is running this now only because of Mega-Kangaskhan). But it will die as well. And Swag Key. How cute. Someone insane enough to run a luck based strategy and risk giving Mega-Kanga a free +2? Not to mention that paralysis, the Swag-Key's opener, is considered not as good as a burn.

And, again, this ignores support for Mega-Kanga, as you could run from Swag-Key and beat it with a dozen other teammates.

His base stats are good but not godly, rocky helmet is everywhere, WoW got a boost, we are in a competitive scene where there are plenty of priority move users and just about any trickster user shuts it down.

Then switch in a ghost, as you see that Khan has mega evolved, and eat up that return.

Yeah, thanks. Every team must now run a ghost (and there are just tons of those in OU). And then the Ghost dies to Crunch. Well played.

Also, don't double post. There is an "Edit" button for a reason.

 

[TheTraininator]

Also, is this about banning Kangaskhan as a whole, or are we banning Kangaskhan too? Because it made sense Gengar was separately tiered from its Mega because they were both good and did different things. But without Kangaskhanite, Kangaskhan is pretty crap.

Just Kangaskhanite, don't worry. Regular Kang is only good in the lower tiers.

 

[Orga777]

no i mean things like heatran, garchomp, ttar, you know, our beloved bulky OU staples.

You mean all things that have infinitely more weaknesses to exploit with pokemon that can safely switch in unlike M-Kanga who you can't switch into safely?

 

[avsimone]

I do not think Mega Kanga is overwhelming enough for a ban yet...and definitely not ready for a quick ban in my opinion. I'm kinda on the fence after seeing it in action though. A test period would definitely solidify my opinion.

I personally feel that Mega Mawile is much more terrifying to fight. Speaking of the deceiver...Intimidate Mawile -> Mega Mawile can give Mega Kanga some trouble as well. Adamant 252 Atk Mawile-Mega's Brick Break vs 0 HP/4 Def Kangaskhan-Mega (308 - 364 HP) Damage: 87.75% - 103.7%. 100% OHKO after rocks.

Mega Lucario after a Protect to go Mega will easily OHKO her without trouble as long as Luc does not switch-in on Power-Up Punch/EQ.

Heck, any fighting type with a decent attack and defense with 100< Speed or a Choice Scarf will easily mega Kanga down with a CC.

There are many more situations that I'd need to see before I would want to ban Mega Kanga.

Also, why are people saying Power-Up Punch is 60 BP with Mega Kanga? Its basically 40 + 1/2 * 40 * 1.5 (Attack raise) = 70 BP, on the initial turn anyway.

Yes there are things that can counter it in overused, but if some UBERS came down to OU even for a test, they could just as easily be revenge killed... ok well not easily, but it could happen. For example, if we've got say, a rayquaza against an azumaril, if the rayquaza's locked into outrage, azumaril uses play rough, azu wins. so again, it's not impossible to revenge kill something in ubers with something from OU (or bellow, anyone see a magikarp sweep in Ubers? I thought it was hilarious). The fact is, kangaskhan is just too powerful for anything in OU to handle. I mean, there are things that could handle it, but with A LOT of support

 

[sidakarya]

Also, is this about banning Kangaskhan as a whole, or are we banning Kangaskhan too? Because it made sense Gengar was separately tiered from its Mega because they were both good and did different things. But without Kangaskhanite, Kangaskhan is pretty crap.

It's about the item that makes M-Kangaskhan (same process that M-Gengar was banned, by banning the item)

 

[SuperMeep]

You mean all things that have infinitely more weaknesses to exploit with pokemon that can safely switch in unlike M-Kanga who you can't switch into safely?

Like any other sweeper, and it's checks? Can we stop seeing posts with calcs about how khan murders everything with +2, ya know, kindof like any other sweeper at +2, such as terrakion, and then proving that it is op because not much with priority 0HKOs it. Your basically saying that khan is op because it is bulky enough to not be revenged without prior damage, while assuming that Khan would have taken no prior damage with PUPing to set up, which is crap. Also, Every worthwhile UU/OU fighting type laughs in the face of sucker punch, mostly even with +2, murdering it with say, close combat. It your opponent is using sucker punch because he believes you will priority khan with say, mach punch, just CC or hammer arm or super power him. Or just set up, then do that and priority him to death.

 

[scodic]

My opinion is that kangaskhan should be banned. There is no denying that if it sets up, very little can stop it, and despite having some counters like a breloom with mach punch and other fighting types, ghost types who are the only types who can block power up punch can easily be picked off by sucker punch, and their only offensive choice would be the low accuracy focus blast, assuming they set up with substitute. Also, it seems to be the default option for people lacking a mega, and I think preserving player's choices is one of the roles of creating tiers, so people can use variety and not be forced using a pokemon that just can't be outmatched, thus it should be banned.

 

[Orga777]

Like any other sweeper, and it's checks?

Except you CANNOT reliably switch something into Kangaskhan, making it borderline impossible to get the jump on.