As far as I know, the Kalos-only rule is only for the first VGC-tournament and is really nothing new. It's similar to the VGC at the beginning of BW, in which only in the Unova-Dex obtainable mons were allowed. There are also several in-game opponents that use moves, that can't be normally obtained in XY. Lysandre's Garados comes to mind; its Iron Head is only a past-generation tutor move and unobtainable in XY alone. This might be hinting at move tutors from a third version, but I think it's more likely that all Pokebank moves will be allowed. (Also as someone who plays more pre-bank than bank, I'd say Kanga's already unmanageable as it is. Pokebank would only make it even more broken.)
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Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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I do understand that Gengar and Khan have different roles, but I feel Khan's role was more meta-game damaging than Genar. This is just an opinion.
Couldn't they just mega evolve and crunch if they are expecting the a ghost leaving you with a Dragonite close to death(assuming rocks are up) against a Pokemon that outspeeds it?
Just a point, any chance that Crobat could work as a check? It switches into PuP and takes an absolute pittance, then either throws out Haze on a predicted Sucker Punch (or regardless) or uses a solid attacking move to outspeed a non-priority option. Although I'm not sure how hard it can hit and if it doesn't Haze the boost off then it's pretty much dead so it's a backup strategy at best. Plus it handles a switch out very poorly.
Kind of a pity Malamar can't get fast enough to outspeed it, really. Topsy-Turvy plus STAB Superpower would be a very convenient way to deal with it. As stupid as it sounds, Scarf Malamar might be able to deal with Mega Kanga if it switches into PuP: It beats anything that isn't Sucker Punch by simply Superpowering it into oblivion, and beats Sucker Punch with Topsy-Turvy (allowing another pokemon to switch in and take negligible damage from -2 PuP at which point it's facing +0 Mega Kanga, which is far less threatening). Additionally, if Mega Kanga switches out, the incoming Pokemon will be hit by Superpower and Malamar nets a free Bulk Up which severely limits what switch-ins will actually be safe (something like Skarmory, for instance, will have to cop two Superpowers before phazing which will put a fair bit of pressure on it).
I guess the general point here is that since Kangaskhan's main form of priority is Sucker Punch, something that can come in on PuP and threaten to erase boosts on a predicted sucker punch (via hazing or phazing, but not Clear Smog, Dragon Tail, or Circle Throw) or outspeed and cripple or OHKO has the potential to threaten it. Gengar, for instance, can win with successful prediction by Hazing Sucker Punch, then using Substitute if another Sucker Punch is predicted which ensures that even a third Sucker Punch will only hit Gengar at 40 BP, while it retaliates with a Focus Blast. If Crunch is predicted instead, Gengar can simply outspeed and Focus Blast straight off. Furthermore, it takes NVE damage from PuP on the switch thanks to a secondary Poison typing, further helping it win the matchup.
Other options include:
- Aerodactyl, mega or no (can Whirlwind it out on a predicted Sucker Punch and resists Normal STAB, although it does worse against Crunch variants)
- Manectric (Intimidate already removes a boost and it packs quite a wallop as well as access to Roar, although without an OHKO it will likely die)
- Garchomp (Rough Skin/Rocky Helmet allows it to score a likely KO with an attacking move, Roar lets it shoo out Sucker Punch attempts, Focus Sash would allow it to tank the Punch and KO back, while using the Mega would enable a first turn outspeeding due to the mechanics of it, followed by either Roar or a powerful attack like Outrage)
- Zoroark (Takes low damage from a Sucker Punch, can Roar it out on Sucker Punch, outspeeds and Focus Blasts it, can trick it into thinking it doesn't outspeed. Primarily a revenge killer due to being unable to switch in and not be revealed, plus taking high damage from PuP, but it can potentially trick Kanga into staying in with Illusion)
- Volcarona (Threatens Whirlwind or Quiver Dance on a Sucker Punch, tanks PuP without problems, deals heavy damage although on a speed tie unless something intervenes)
- Noivern (Whirlwinds Sucker Punch, Focus Blasts non-Sucker Punch, tanks PuP. Pretty standard)
- The Sableye/Cofagrigus checks mentioned above fit in well here
It's important to note that if you lose a Pokemon but significantly damage Mega Kanga, Extremespeed, faster priority (Talonflame, for instance), or strong Fighting-type Priority (Breloom, Lucario, et cetera) can finish it off when it shows up again. Obviously having to lose one Pokemon isn't ideal, but that still means one "check" and one powerful priority user. Ultimately this is all theorymon and I know prediction is unreliable, but I think some of these Pokemon at least give you a decent shot against Mega Kanga rather than just going immediately splat. Don't forget that if you can get a Reflect up using the same Sucker Punch trick you also end up with additional options.
Kind of a pity Malamar can't get fast enough to outspeed it, really. Topsy-Turvy plus STAB Superpower would be a very convenient way to deal with it. As stupid as it sounds, Scarf Malamar might be able to deal with Mega Kanga if it switches into PuP: It beats anything that isn't Sucker Punch by simply Superpowering it into oblivion, and beats Sucker Punch with Topsy-Turvy (allowing another pokemon to switch in and take negligible damage from -2 PuP at which point it's facing +0 Mega Kanga, which is far less threatening). Additionally, if Mega Kanga switches out, the incoming Pokemon will be hit by Superpower and Malamar nets a free Bulk Up which severely limits what switch-ins will actually be safe (something like Skarmory, for instance, will have to cop two Superpowers before phazing which will put a fair bit of pressure on it).
I guess the general point here is that since Kangaskhan's main form of priority is Sucker Punch, something that can come in on PuP and threaten to erase boosts on a predicted sucker punch (via hazing or phazing, but not Clear Smog, Dragon Tail, or Circle Throw) or outspeed and cripple or OHKO has the potential to threaten it. Gengar, for instance, can win with successful prediction by Hazing Sucker Punch, then using Substitute if another Sucker Punch is predicted which ensures that even a third Sucker Punch will only hit Gengar at 40 BP, while it retaliates with a Focus Blast. If Crunch is predicted instead, Gengar can simply outspeed and Focus Blast straight off. Furthermore, it takes NVE damage from PuP on the switch thanks to a secondary Poison typing, further helping it win the matchup.
Other options include:
- Aerodactyl, mega or no (can Whirlwind it out on a predicted Sucker Punch and resists Normal STAB, although it does worse against Crunch variants)
- Manectric (Intimidate already removes a boost and it packs quite a wallop as well as access to Roar, although without an OHKO it will likely die)
- Garchomp (Rough Skin/Rocky Helmet allows it to score a likely KO with an attacking move, Roar lets it shoo out Sucker Punch attempts, Focus Sash would allow it to tank the Punch and KO back, while using the Mega would enable a first turn outspeeding due to the mechanics of it, followed by either Roar or a powerful attack like Outrage)
- Zoroark (Takes low damage from a Sucker Punch, can Roar it out on Sucker Punch, outspeeds and Focus Blasts it, can trick it into thinking it doesn't outspeed. Primarily a revenge killer due to being unable to switch in and not be revealed, plus taking high damage from PuP, but it can potentially trick Kanga into staying in with Illusion)
- Volcarona (Threatens Whirlwind or Quiver Dance on a Sucker Punch, tanks PuP without problems, deals heavy damage although on a speed tie unless something intervenes)
- Noivern (Whirlwinds Sucker Punch, Focus Blasts non-Sucker Punch, tanks PuP. Pretty standard)
- The Sableye/Cofagrigus checks mentioned above fit in well here
It's important to note that if you lose a Pokemon but significantly damage Mega Kanga, Extremespeed, faster priority (Talonflame, for instance), or strong Fighting-type Priority (Breloom, Lucario, et cetera) can finish it off when it shows up again. Obviously having to lose one Pokemon isn't ideal, but that still means one "check" and one powerful priority user. Ultimately this is all theorymon and I know prediction is unreliable, but I think some of these Pokemon at least give you a decent shot against Mega Kanga rather than just going immediately splat. Don't forget that if you can get a Reflect up using the same Sucker Punch trick you also end up with additional options.
Is there a source? Because according to this http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Knock_Off_(move) there is a move tutor, in gen 4 and gen 5?
Its all about prediction. That could just as easily happen as any of the other senarios we have discussed. Khan should i guess, be banned because of it's sheer power, which unbalances things. As far as calcs suggest, not even Lucarios comes close to this powerful, especially with it being frail.
Khan will literally sheer force through almost all of these beside aerodactyl and manetric (kinda on Manetric), taking a hit easily.
Lucario also boasts a bunch more resistances though, which help to make up for the lack of bulk and provide it with many more switch-in options. Luke also gets greatly increased versatility with priority which somewhat makes up for the lack of power (in particular, being able to hit the special side can prove a crucial advantage, bringing the damage above Mega Kanga's offerings).
Since when does Mega-Kang NOT have full health? It comes in after something is killed and sets-up. Any player worth his salt is not going to switch their main sweeper into a fucking attack. Say you have 3 layers of spikes and stealth rocks, then you would be at around 60% health. But how many times have you done that? It is especially hard now with defog. Therefore, it is safe to assume that most, if not, all of the time you see kang, it is going to be at full health.
PS: Breloom doesn't OHKO with mach punch, and kang returns and Breloom is dead. So that leaves conk and Mega-Luke which are the same two (two and only two) checks that everyone else is saying.
As a user of kanga on the ladder currently its power is real, however the new grass ghost have been pesky enough when playing musical chairs. Gourgeist especially supersized has the bulk and wil o wisp to put a stop to kanga even if a crunch gets involved. Also conkeldurr has become pretty popular and as such acts as a very nice check. Lucarios problem is steel typing leaves it to rust under power up punch. Conkeldurr however packing massive bulk along with leftovers and bulk up becomes a problem for kangaskhan as conkeldurr is massive enough to tank a hit and fire back with either mach punch for priority or drain punch to wait for kanga to faint. I would like to submit my vote to NOT ban kangaskhanite for the simple fact that there are still some serious fighting types like conkeldurr and mega medicham that do very well as checks. I know most people are upset by kangas raw power even without helpful set up but honestly, the answers are out there.
I don't really post here much, although I do do a lot of lurking. Anyways, I just wanted to reinforce the opinion that Mega Khan is broken as all hell. Even more so than MegaGar in my opinion.
When I first began playing in the XY metagame, I ran Rocky Helmet Chomp, specifically to counter Mega Khan. After some playing on the ladder I didn't really have much of a problem with MegaKhan and deemed it worthy for the OU metagame. But due to my team sucking, I ended up low on the ladder and playing a bunch of people who really didn't know how to play Mega Khan. Then I went and made a decent team that got fairly high on the ladder. This is when I realized MegaKhan needs to go ASAP. As I faced better and better battlers who actually knew how to play Khan, I kept finding myself getting swept by it.
What I think is severely underrated is MegaKhan's bulk. Although mentioned before me, I'd just like to reinforce the fact that not much can OHKO it. And if you find something that can OHKO it and outspeed, it's more than likely KO'd by sucker punch or easily removed allowing Khan to easily sweep. The fact that people are resorting to using obscure mons like Sableye and Confagrius (sp?) just to give themselves a chance to deal with MegaKhan is ridiculous. The fact that it can 2HKO Skarmory, one of the premiere Physical walls, is beyond healthy for the metagame.
I remember one battle in particular where I had got up to +2 with my MegaDos and had just killed the opposing Rotom W. I was all ready to click a few buttons, finish my sweep, and then move on to my next battle. In comes MegaKhan. It tanks my +2 STAB Waterfall (Coming off base 155 Atk), Power-Up Punches and KO's me with Sucker Punch. Besides the fact that this basically ruined my day, I realized then and there just how broken MegaKhan is.
Anyways, I really didn't have too much to say, because everything that needs to be said was brilliantly summed up by Halcyon earlier in this thread (Go read if you haven't).
When I first began playing in the XY metagame, I ran Rocky Helmet Chomp, specifically to counter Mega Khan. After some playing on the ladder I didn't really have much of a problem with MegaKhan and deemed it worthy for the OU metagame. But due to my team sucking, I ended up low on the ladder and playing a bunch of people who really didn't know how to play Mega Khan. Then I went and made a decent team that got fairly high on the ladder. This is when I realized MegaKhan needs to go ASAP. As I faced better and better battlers who actually knew how to play Khan, I kept finding myself getting swept by it.
What I think is severely underrated is MegaKhan's bulk. Although mentioned before me, I'd just like to reinforce the fact that not much can OHKO it. And if you find something that can OHKO it and outspeed, it's more than likely KO'd by sucker punch or easily removed allowing Khan to easily sweep. The fact that people are resorting to using obscure mons like Sableye and Confagrius (sp?) just to give themselves a chance to deal with MegaKhan is ridiculous. The fact that it can 2HKO Skarmory, one of the premiere Physical walls, is beyond healthy for the metagame.
I remember one battle in particular where I had got up to +2 with my MegaDos and had just killed the opposing Rotom W. I was all ready to click a few buttons, finish my sweep, and then move on to my next battle. In comes MegaKhan. It tanks my +2 STAB Waterfall (Coming off base 155 Atk), Power-Up Punches and KO's me with Sucker Punch. Besides the fact that this basically ruined my day, I realized then and there just how broken MegaKhan is.
Anyways, I really didn't have too much to say, because everything that needs to be said was brilliantly summed up by Halcyon earlier in this thread (Go read if you haven't).
Khan is in question of being banned because it can muscle it's way through nearly anything, and sets up with ease, guarenteeing a kill if you want to cripple or KO it. For example, If Khan comes in all ok, like through Volt switch, It's power, bulk, and speed are just too much combined. While it does have great and somewhat common counters, they literally require a free switch, meaning something has to die.
This was proved incorrect despite Bulbapedia and Serebii listing it, likely because it didn't really matter since no one ran Knock Off on him anyways before Gen 6.
Kangaskhan does not get Knock Off. Not like it needs it.
- 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 321-379 (86 - 101.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Long answer: NOOOOOO!!! OF COURSE NOT! IT'S NOT EVEN HALF A CHECK!!!
As for the other "options"
- Aerodactyl: Get's 2HKO'd by a resisted Return and dies to unboosted Sucker Punch. Classy.
- Manectric: Kills you through Intimidate with +1 Return.
- Garchomp: It's really not an answer at all, and I run it. You have to offer it as a sacrifice as if it were a yadnya to the gods, and by then, you've opened a huge hole in your team. Same goes for Ferrothorn.
- Zoroark: RIP in pieces
- Volcarona: see above
- Noivern: ibid.
- Sableye and Cofagrigus: On any other situation in OU, they're considered dead weight. It does not speak very well that these are the only half-decent answers to this monster.
Mega Kangaskhan is the perfect combination of bulk (105/100/100 with one weakness), power (125 Atk w/ auto-CB), speed (100 is a fantastic speed tier), coverage (unresisted with just three moves, one of which is priority), and its ability removes the one thing that would guarantee you a revenge-kill against any other offensive juggernaught: the Focus Sash.
If Parental Bond merely gave you a blanket 50% damage boost, there'd be no reason to ban it. But in the hands of a smart player, Mega Kangaskhan can muscle through just about everything.
And even if you bring in something to stop it... they can just switch out.
If Parental Bond merely gave you a blanket 50% damage boost, there'd be no reason to ban it. But in the hands of a smart player, Mega Kangaskhan can muscle through just about everything.
And even if you bring in something to stop it... they can just switch out.
I have used M-Kanga for some time now, and while it is very powerful, I don't think it's broken. If you carry Sucker Punch, you are walled hard by many Gengar variants. As mentioned previously, Prankster mons are excellent checks, especially Sableye with Will-o-Wisp. Faster stuff that can take a Sucker Punch can revenge kill it. Skarmory can take most of M-Kanga's unboosted hits and Whirlwind it out. Rocky Helmet Gyarados with Intimidate (which I use) can come in on a lot and Roar it away.
The point is, a lot of stuff can check it, enough to say Mega Kangaskhan is not broken. Also as a reminder, having checks but few or no counters does not necessarily make something broken.
The point is, a lot of stuff can check it, enough to say Mega Kangaskhan is not broken. Also as a reminder, having checks but few or no counters does not necessarily make something broken.
In my opinion, Khan is more broken than Gengar and Genesect put together. The only two counters are Sableye and Cofagrigus, and Cofragigus dies to boosted Crunch anyway. The only surefire other way to counter it is to know all four of it's moves, which you only know for sure after half your team has been swept. It rewards bad players, overcentalizes the meta, and makes laddering not fun at all. Quickban the bitch!
Your Gyarados is running a shitton of bulk haha, and Landorus-T gets KOed by PuP->Return, so I can't really see Gyarados being much different. Sableye is your only surefire check and it's not even surefire, only 85% accurate. Also, what kind of Gengar are you walled by, Disable/Destiny Bond? Most Kanga users agree that Return/PuP/Crunch/Sucker Punch is the best set, you don't need Earthquake, Fire Punch is nice but not necessary, etc.
Skarmory can take PuP->Crunch but all it can do back is Whirlwind, which means it's taken damage for nothing. Also Kangaskhan can run Fire Punch.
It's not easy to find fast stuff that can take boosted Sucker Punches, and a lot of faster mons that can take them can't actually KO back anyways (you have the musketeers, and Infernape.).
The point I was making is that assuming it can take the outspeeding Focus Blast/Superpower/Whatever (Which isn't a guarantee without defensive investment, which will prevent it investing in both Attack and Speed, which will allow other options around 90+ base with better stats to outspeed it and use similar tactics), it will now lose to fast priority users due to being significantly weakened. Plus, Sucker Punch is bad against Fighting-types meaning opponents like Infernape, Mega Lucario (again!), any of the Musketeers, possibly Mienshao although I wouldn't bet on it, and maaaaybe Hawlucha (it has the advantage of taking NVE damage from PuP as well) can threaten to outspeed and KO. While they will eventually be worn down to the point where Sucker Punch would finish them, Sucker Punch is also a free switch or setup if predicted correctly and Infernape/Mega Luke can predict it with a faster Mach Punch
Oh! An additional point is the Kee Berry. If we assume you're switching in on Power-up Punch, Kee Berry will trigger and provide a much-needed defensive boost. Placing it on Ghost-types makes them a much more effective Mega Kanga counter, since it negates the +1 from Scrappy PuP potentially allowing them to take the incoming Crunch/Sucker Punch with correct investment. Something like Volcarona @ Kee Berry can come in, get +1 Defense, have a 50% chance of burning Mega Kanga with Flame Body, and threaten to become extremely dangerous with Quiver Dance plus the +1 Defense boost shoring up a usually poor Defense stat.
For that matter, Flame Body on the switch-in seems pretty effective. It's got 50% to burn straight up and another 50% if Mega Kanga requires a further two hits to take it down. At the very least that makes Stealth Rock support more necessary for Mega Kanga, which provides a method of trying to work around it.
How does Togekiss fare against M-Kangaskhan? Usually in my experience Togekiss makes short work of her with paraflinch but I think unless Kangaskhan gets a crit on a Rock Slide Togekiss stands a good chance of setting up paraflinch. Even if Togekiss fails to get any flinches the paralysis will definitely cripple her.
Soo...don't try a sweep until your opponent's Keldeo and Sableye are gone? Also it can afford to switch out and ditch its boosts, as there will always be more opportunities later. Don't think that just because you have +2 you have to stay in, because you are not staying in on Sableye/Keldeo/Terrakion.
And lol Kee Berry. Most mons have something better to be doing. I can maybe see it on Trevenant, but...okay no.
Togekiss cannot switch in because a boosted attack will destroy it. If it manages to get in and Kangaskhan has no boosts, Kangaskhan is just going to switch to Rotom-W or something, it's not worth risking paralysis on your main sweeper.
I do not believe Kang deserves to be banned for the following reasons:
It is easily counterable before, while, and after it has set up:
As a user of mega khan, this is how you deal with it:
As soon as you see Mega Khan on the field a counter should be sent out.
1.)Send out a Garchomp with Rocky Helmet, hit it with an EQ, Khan returns with PuP, DEAD khan.
2.)Send out Ferrothorn with Rocky Helmet, he uses PuP, you win, he uses EQ, you use Leech Seed/Protect/Thunderwave etc, you win.
3.)Send out Mandibuzz, he uses pup, you OHKO him with the Foul Play, he uses Earthquake, you take no damage. He uses Sucker punch, you laugh it off.
4.)Send out Lucario before he M-Evos, hope you win the speed tie, if you do, game over.(This isn't a counter, but can help check him).
5.)Send out Skarmory with Rocky Helmet, tank his PuP or Return while hitting whirlwhind, then Roost it off.
6.)Send out SableEye, Hit him with the WoW, Foul Play/Recover it off. GG
If anything, you should ban power up punch on Kangaskhan. That would solve your OMG he is at +2, game over Hyper Offense crybabies who thought they could win all their games by packing nothing but offensive behemoths in their team.
Seriously though, with the usage of Garchomp/Ferrothorn in the current Meta due to Talonflame presence, there should be no reason to ban Kangaskhanite. Power up Punch, I can understand, but Kangaskhanite? Naw...
May sound like a fallacy, but at this rate, all the Megas will be banned.
It is easily counterable before, while, and after it has set up:
As a user of mega khan, this is how you deal with it:
As soon as you see Mega Khan on the field a counter should be sent out.
1.)Send out a Garchomp with Rocky Helmet, hit it with an EQ, Khan returns with PuP, DEAD khan.
2.)Send out Ferrothorn with Rocky Helmet, he uses PuP, you win, he uses EQ, you use Leech Seed/Protect/Thunderwave etc, you win.
3.)Send out Mandibuzz, he uses pup, you OHKO him with the Foul Play, he uses Earthquake, you take no damage. He uses Sucker punch, you laugh it off.
4.)Send out Lucario before he M-Evos, hope you win the speed tie, if you do, game over.(This isn't a counter, but can help check him).
5.)Send out Skarmory with Rocky Helmet, tank his PuP or Return while hitting whirlwhind, then Roost it off.
6.)Send out SableEye, Hit him with the WoW, Foul Play/Recover it off. GG
If anything, you should ban power up punch on Kangaskhan. That would solve your OMG he is at +2, game over Hyper Offense crybabies who thought they could win all their games by packing nothing but offensive behemoths in their team.
Seriously though, with the usage of Garchomp/Ferrothorn in the current Meta due to Talonflame presence, there should be no reason to ban Kangaskhanite. Power up Punch, I can understand, but Kangaskhanite? Naw...
May sound like a fallacy, but at this rate, all the Megas will be banned.
Just going to copy and paste my post from the other Kangaskhan thread.
This is actually an anecdote going back to early Gen 5, right before the Excadrill ban. At that point, people were coming up with entirely unviable sets solely to beat Excadrill. A famous example is Balloon/Magnet Rise Magnezone, who could come in after a kill, take a Rock Slide as it used Magnet Rise, then be immune to EQ for a few turns while it spammed HP Fire. Scarf Politoed was also the most popular set (in fact, it was listed first in the analysis, whereas it dropped down to 3rd by the end of Gen 5) simply for its ability to beat Excadrill.
Usage stats from July 2013 http://paste.ubuntu.com/5939795/
Choice Scarf 9.085% <-less than 1 in 10 at the end. There's no moveset statistic from right before the Excadrill ban, but Scarf-Toed was definitely the most common set.
Compare that to the current situation, where Rocky Helmet is suggested on Skarmory (instead of Leftovers) and Garchomp (instead of Leftovers / Yache / LO / Scarf / Band) solely to beat Mega-Kangaskhan, and where sets such as Skill Swap Cofagrigus pop up (again) solely to stop Kangaskhan. These sets are generally inferior to their alternative, which is a sign that Mega-Kangaskhan is over-centralizing the metagame.
So in summary: Does Mega-Kangaskhan deserve a ban for being broken? That depends on your definition of broken. A ton of posts here are essentially "Mega-Khan beats my team 6-0, ban it." or "Mega-Khan can't get past my Gyarados/Gengar combo, don't ban it." How broken something has to be before it *has* to be banned will change depending on who you ask.
Is Mega-Kangaskhan strong enough to force people to use sub-optimal sets solely to stop it? Yes.
Would OU be better off witout Mega-Kangaskhan? For the above reason, yes. It's not simply a matter of "Just run a counter to it." anymore. It's gotten to the point where even the counters have to be specifically tailored to beating Khan. Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn does a worse job of beating Rotom-W than Leftovers Ferrothorn, since you're taking a bit of extra damage each turn. Rocky Helmet Skarmory is more vulnerable to being KO'd without Leftovers restoring its Sturdy. In trying to beat Khan, people are harming their chances of beating the rest of the metagame.
This is actually an anecdote going back to early Gen 5, right before the Excadrill ban. At that point, people were coming up with entirely unviable sets solely to beat Excadrill. A famous example is Balloon/Magnet Rise Magnezone, who could come in after a kill, take a Rock Slide as it used Magnet Rise, then be immune to EQ for a few turns while it spammed HP Fire. Scarf Politoed was also the most popular set (in fact, it was listed first in the analysis, whereas it dropped down to 3rd by the end of Gen 5) simply for its ability to beat Excadrill.
Usage stats from July 2013 http://paste.ubuntu.com/5939795/
Choice Scarf 9.085% <-less than 1 in 10 at the end. There's no moveset statistic from right before the Excadrill ban, but Scarf-Toed was definitely the most common set.
Compare that to the current situation, where Rocky Helmet is suggested on Skarmory (instead of Leftovers) and Garchomp (instead of Leftovers / Yache / LO / Scarf / Band) solely to beat Mega-Kangaskhan, and where sets such as Skill Swap Cofagrigus pop up (again) solely to stop Kangaskhan. These sets are generally inferior to their alternative, which is a sign that Mega-Kangaskhan is over-centralizing the metagame.
So in summary: Does Mega-Kangaskhan deserve a ban for being broken? That depends on your definition of broken. A ton of posts here are essentially "Mega-Khan beats my team 6-0, ban it." or "Mega-Khan can't get past my Gyarados/Gengar combo, don't ban it." How broken something has to be before it *has* to be banned will change depending on who you ask.
Is Mega-Kangaskhan strong enough to force people to use sub-optimal sets solely to stop it? Yes.
Would OU be better off witout Mega-Kangaskhan? For the above reason, yes. It's not simply a matter of "Just run a counter to it." anymore. It's gotten to the point where even the counters have to be specifically tailored to beating Khan. Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn does a worse job of beating Rotom-W than Leftovers Ferrothorn, since you're taking a bit of extra damage each turn. Rocky Helmet Skarmory is more vulnerable to being KO'd without Leftovers restoring its Sturdy. In trying to beat Khan, people are harming their chances of beating the rest of the metagame.
It's not easy to find fast stuff that can take boosted Sucker Punches, and a lot of faster mons that can take them can't actually KO back anyways (you have the musketeers, and Infernape.).[/quote]
Out of all those you mentioned, only Cobalion can handle it anyway. Infernape dies to Sucker Punch, and I'm pretty sure even Cobalion dies to a boosted Sucker Punch. My main point is, this thing is broken as fuck, and it needs to be in Ubers where it belongs. It makes Stall obsolete just like Gengar did.
Out of all those you mentioned, only Cobalion can handle it anyway. Infernape dies to Sucker Punch, and I'm pretty sure even Cobalion dies to a boosted Sucker Punch. My main point is, this thing is broken as fuck, and it needs to be in Ubers where it belongs. It makes Stall obsolete just like Gengar did.
- +2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 397-469 (106.4 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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