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Move Knock Off
- Thread starter youngjake93
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Usually knock off is extra helpful against weakness policy 'mons. Especially dragonite.
Life orb-ers also will suffer due to lack of damage that they would've gotten.
Life orb-ers also will suffer due to lack of damage that they would've gotten.
Thr 25 base PP allows Conkeldurr to be a decent check to Trevenant, as long as Conkeldurr isn't statused.
Conkeldurr and Lando-T (if you can find room for it) are arguably the best users. A 97.5 base power moves that puts immediate pressure on a wall, as it forces them to heal so they would not be 2HKOs, and it also applies long term pressure by stripping them of their healing item.
My Genesect would probably appreciate a Knock Off (to give it more freedom) against a stall team though.
Conkeldurr and Lando-T (if you can find room for it) are arguably the best users. A 97.5 base power moves that puts immediate pressure on a wall, as it forces them to heal so they would not be 2HKOs, and it also applies long term pressure by stripping them of their healing item.
My Genesect would probably appreciate a Knock Off (to give it more freedom) against a stall team though.
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Guts Conkeldurr says hi.
I see a lot of AV Conkeldurrs running around with Guts these days.
Well, I mean it cannot be stalled out by spamming Sub... if it is not statused, Conkeldurr could just spam Knock Off -- 40 PP vs 16 PP.
You can't status Conkeldurr with Trevenant and then stall him out, since knock off removes the berry permanently. Trevenant can only check him if he comes in fresh or on a drain/mach punch, and he already has the aforementioned status.
Meh, I think I'd still rank Stealth Rock over Knock Off as the best move in the game. It's still omnipresent and nearly mandatory on any team, while the ease of setup and pretty wide distribution makes it attractive among other entry hazards, even in a Excadrill and Defog infested metagame. I might also rank U-turn/Volt Switch above it since the ability to do some damage, snatch away momentum, and remove any real need for prediction or actual thought regarding switch-ins is so powerful for offensive teams. However, Knock Off would probably replace Scald as the third best move in the game in my book. Pretty much anything that gets Knock Off can put its coverage, power, and/or effect to good use, and it turns Pokemon like Crawdaunt and Bisharp into absolute nightmares if you're not carrying Mega Gyarados or something.
Regardless, I agree that it'd be an easy S-Rank if we had a viability ranking for moves.
Tornadus-T is possibly a better user than Landorus-T, having an amazing speed tier and access to Regenerator on top of U-Turn. Really effing annoying assuredly. It's also fantastic on Mandibuzz as was mentioned early being one annoying bird to knock off (lol) her perch. Also, Curse/Knock Off Megasaur. You are in for a hair pulling experience.
Knock Off is great on Conk obviously for coverage and the awesome effect, but Knock Off isn't the reason you pick Conk, it's just a natural fit for him.
Where power is concerned its hard to top Bisharp and Crawdaunt. If the enemy isn't outright killed, yeah, you'll appreciate the removal of their item lol.
To be honest, Gamefreak made knock off too powerful of a move. With that 97,5 BP when item is removed and awesome 40 PP it is pain to even pressure-substall out (tried that against knock off M-Venusaur with Moltres before looking for the PP amount). Nothing really appreciate item removal unless you have been choice tricked or choiced and think you don't need that item anymore. And even then getting hit by something like Bisharp with that powerful of a move, nothing appreciates even the damage.
I run Jolly Tentacruel with knock off/rs/toxic/protect and even uninvested the amount of damage it does to your common spinblockers along with removing item is ludicrous (damage itself isn't fatal, but it all adds up).
I run Jolly Tentacruel with knock off/rs/toxic/protect and even uninvested the amount of damage it does to your common spinblockers along with removing item is ludicrous (damage itself isn't fatal, but it all adds up).
Knock Off is certainly a top-tier move choice. It's a great option on nearly anything that learns it, with an amazing effect and no drawbacks. It's easily one of the most spammable moves in the game (after U-Turn, of course). It's great with STAB, and I love to use it with Mandibuzz or Sableye for extra utility and decent damage as well. Knock Off is especially nice on things like Bisharp and Crawdaunt that can demolish things with it, and the secondary effect means there's essentially no "safe" switch-in.
In fact, I'd have to agree that Gamefreak made it a bit too powerful. It saw decent usage even last generation when it had a pitiful 20 BP, simply because removing items is incredibly useful in any scenario. Now not only did it gain an incredible boost in power, but the Steel nerf has made Dark a great attacking type too.
I'm guessing Gamefreak buffed it so much because of the introduction of Mega Evos, which not only are immune to the effect but don't take the boosted damage. Since most of GF's balance choices are based around the official 4v4 meta, Knock Off still wouldn't been incredibly useful (especially considering 1/4 of each team is likely "immune"). In our 6v6 game though, it's easily one of the best moves, so just make the most of it and enjoy it!
In fact, I'd have to agree that Gamefreak made it a bit too powerful. It saw decent usage even last generation when it had a pitiful 20 BP, simply because removing items is incredibly useful in any scenario. Now not only did it gain an incredible boost in power, but the Steel nerf has made Dark a great attacking type too.
I'm guessing Gamefreak buffed it so much because of the introduction of Mega Evos, which not only are immune to the effect but don't take the boosted damage. Since most of GF's balance choices are based around the official 4v4 meta, Knock Off still wouldn't been incredibly useful (especially considering 1/4 of each team is likely "immune"). In our 6v6 game though, it's easily one of the best moves, so just make the most of it and enjoy it!
Mega Mawile is an absolutely amazing user of this move. Nothing likes switching into Mega Mawile in the first place, and knock off just builds on this by punishing the unfortunate switch in. Even if Skarmory comes in to whirlwind as you swords dance, it doesn't appreciate the knock off at all:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 229-270 (68.5 - 80.8%)
I generally see it as a good option over Fire Fang as whilst you lose coverage (admittedly, Fire Fang is a clean OKO on Skarm at +2) the utility is better over the course of the match against the vast majority of walls/tanks.
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 229-270 (68.5 - 80.8%)
I generally see it as a good option over Fire Fang as whilst you lose coverage (admittedly, Fire Fang is a clean OKO on Skarm at +2) the utility is better over the course of the match against the vast majority of walls/tanks.
I would have to say the best use of Knock Off is to hurt Stall more than anything. It's nice to get rid of LO and Choice items, but Leftie removal can hurt more than anything. Since Mawile generally likes the role of "Hitting like a truck," but lacks a lot of speed, you almost NEED Sucker Punch. And doubling up on the move types seems a little redundant. I think this is great on mons that generally will find a stall/wall in front of them or on those same wall/stalls. Mawile doesn't need help cracking walls.
Gliscor (B2/W2 Tutor) can really tear it up w/ Knock Off, over the standard Ice Fang. It allows him to hurt things (Excadrill) w/ Balloons, greatly hinder opposing Stall, and punish any physical attackers in front of him. He has a high enough base Attack stat to make good use of it with little/no investment into attack as well.
Toxic Orb Heal
- Roost
- EQ
- Knock off
- Toxic
EDIT: Also, if everybody's favorite Levitate mon Gengar shows up to be immune to your predictable toxic and EQ, hit it where it hurts soo good.
Gliscor (B2/W2 Tutor) can really tear it up w/ Knock Off, over the standard Ice Fang. It allows him to hurt things (Excadrill) w/ Balloons, greatly hinder opposing Stall, and punish any physical attackers in front of him. He has a high enough base Attack stat to make good use of it with little/no investment into attack as well.
Toxic Orb Heal
- Roost
- EQ
- Knock off
- Toxic
EDIT: Also, if everybody's favorite Levitate mon Gengar shows up to be immune to your predictable toxic and EQ, hit it where it hurts soo good.
Knock Off isn't the best move in the game >.> That spot would probably go to Substitute or Stealth Rock (even though both got nerfed this gen). That said it is an incredible move on certain pokemon, like AV Conkeldurr (quite the potent user to say the least). It's that damage boost on the initial item-removing hit that does it imo. A move that used to have 20 base power now has 97.5 base power, not factoring in STAB or SE damage. It's strong, yes but the distribution is comparatively low (well actually that's a lie, many pokemon have access to it but only a certain amount is viable, and even less pokes can utilize it effectively/have room for it on their moveset).
So that's why they just make it a 1.5x more damage instead of 2.0x.
Its also like a sure super effective attack on a pokemon that holds something.
I'm really surprise about this change though.
More like pseudo-STAB. Super-effective is 2.0x more damage, not 1.5x.
Just to clarify,
1.5x damage from STAB + 1.5x Damage Boost from Knock Off = approximately 2.0x Damage. :3
oh. I was thinking of Dark-type Users. Sorry. ;_;
Here's a fun set I made a while back; combining the annoyance that is Knockoff, a very strong stab, and some utility.
Hitmonlee (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Def / 4 HP / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
Cleric support is welcomed, as it'll save you from burns. Other than that, Hitmonlee can take quite a beating! Unlike the other Hitmons, he can learn Knock Off which strikes fear into the heart of wouldbe spinblockers. When I made this set I looked at a mix of rather common special attackers and physical attackers and came to the conclusion that, if he's to take a hit on the defensive side, rather than going full HP it would probably be wise to invest in defense.
In practice this set has worked well for me. He's faster than uninvested Rotom's and, while he can't quite OHKO them, he can leave quite a mark. His 120 base attack allows him to help pick off weakened opponents that are faster than him with Mach Punch as well. Basically, it's Conkeldurr 2.0 with spinning capabilities.
Hitmonlee (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Def / 4 HP / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
Cleric support is welcomed, as it'll save you from burns. Other than that, Hitmonlee can take quite a beating! Unlike the other Hitmons, he can learn Knock Off which strikes fear into the heart of wouldbe spinblockers. When I made this set I looked at a mix of rather common special attackers and physical attackers and came to the conclusion that, if he's to take a hit on the defensive side, rather than going full HP it would probably be wise to invest in defense.
In practice this set has worked well for me. He's faster than uninvested Rotom's and, while he can't quite OHKO them, he can leave quite a mark. His 120 base attack allows him to help pick off weakened opponents that are faster than him with Mach Punch as well. Basically, it's Conkeldurr 2.0 with spinning capabilities.
Erm, if Rotom-W runs even just 12 Speed EVs you are outsped and crippled, besides, a ton of Rotom-W are scarfed. This set is ok at best, but I fail to see how it is better than Excadrill in any way?
I'm just as aware as you are that Rotoms can be faster than it.
Without a doubt Excadrill is still one of, if not THE best spinner in the game. But for teams that still need a spinner, don't want to run defog (because they rely on hazards themselves), can't afford to run more steel or ground types, and could use fighting type this set is decent, and I can vouch for it. Like I said in my original post, cleric support helps a lot.
Yeah, the only drawback to Excadrill is that he is Steel, and a lot of people really like Steel. Scissor, Aegislash, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarm, Heatran, Metagross are all fairly popular, and having an Excadrill around on top of some of those (obviously you won't have Forretress and Excadrill, but you know) make you look like you want to move to California circa April, 1906. It's nice to have other options, and to be able to take advantage of those options. This hitmonlee provides fighting coverage and STAB Priority, Knock Off (which is arguably the best Dark move in the game right now) which hits common spin blockers and punishes walls for wanting healing items, and to top it off, some pretty impressive Sp. Def (even Univested). As for the argument of speed... if you're REALLY worried, take down the Def a bit and put some into speed, or grab a Jolly nature instead. Yeah, WoW neuters him a bit, but with the ability to still remove items and hazards. Besides, Excadrill suffers the same drawback from WoW and is hardly faster than Hitmonlee unless it's Sandy out. Of course, Lee can just grab a Burn Healing berry and be just fine w/ Unburden too, though you lose the Assault Vest buff.
I guess I'm just trying to say that though Excadrill is great at what he does, he isn't always going to synergize with a team, as sometimes the typing won't match up, or maybe you want the utility of Knock Off on something that can lure out a Ghost, or maybe you want to be different. Honestly, this is a Fighting type w/ Priority and a great coverage/utility move that also has Rapid Spin. With the meta going the way it is, Rocks are a bit less common (ty Defog), so having the best Rapid Spinner on your team might not be the most important.
And in keeping with the Thread, I DO love how well Knock Off compliments Rapid Spin.
I guess I'm just trying to say that though Excadrill is great at what he does, he isn't always going to synergize with a team, as sometimes the typing won't match up, or maybe you want the utility of Knock Off on something that can lure out a Ghost, or maybe you want to be different. Honestly, this is a Fighting type w/ Priority and a great coverage/utility move that also has Rapid Spin. With the meta going the way it is, Rocks are a bit less common (ty Defog), so having the best Rapid Spinner on your team might not be the most important.
And in keeping with the Thread, I DO love how well Knock Off compliments Rapid Spin.
Reckless powers up HJK huh? I never knew. I'm so sad Hitmontop doesn't get Knock Off. With his good SpD+Assault Vest and Intimidate he's a good spinner but he only really gets Sucker Punch for Dark, which while good, can't hit Ghost types as they switch in. Grr...
And Knock Off kind of is overpowered. It's distribution isn't poor, and Dark is useful coverage for lots of things. The BP boost was fine, but with power greater than Crunch on the first hit and always removing the opponent's item? That's going a bit overboard there. The damage buff when removing the item isn't necessary imo.
I agree~!
598
Ferrothorn
Iron Barbs Anticipation
HP: 74 Atk: 94 Def: 131 SpA: 54 SpD: 116 Spe: 20 BST: 489
Iron Barbs Anticipation
HP: 74 Atk: 94 Def: 131 SpA: 54 SpD: 116 Spe: 20 BST: 489
with that 94 base attack:
4 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 202-238 (74.2 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It can badly hurt Espeon.
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