Move Knock Off

[Jojobobo]

Is there any good strategies against Knock Off, outside of using a mega? I dislike that you almost have to run a mega if you're using a stall team because of Knock Off, even then you can't do anything useful when you switch in (such as setting up) as they might have Foul Play. Plus few megas have recovery, so even then you have to take a hit and lose some of your precious HP.

I know you can use Weakness Policy (well, not if that bug still persists), but that's still only a one time deal and you have to pass up recovery for it (you can also then be phazed, or just walled by something appropriate, etc.). I imagine Game Freak increased the BP to encourage mega usage - but they've just made a move that is exceptionally easy to put on any team and has an enormous beneficial effect; Mandibuzz in particular makes very brutal use of it but so can any other bulky or fast pokemon that has it.

 

[Anty]

Is there any good strategies against Knock Off, outside of using a mega? I dislike that you almost have to run a mega if you're using a stall team because of Knock Off, even then you can't do anything useful when you switch in (such as setting up) as they might have Foul Play. Plus few megas have recovery, so even then you have to take a hit and lose some of your precious HP.

Megas are useful in most teams, ive found that mega venusaur is great with stall and has recovery but knock off is still annoying. The best ways to counter it is probably gliscor, after its orb has been used, there is no point for it. Sticky hold is a thing but gastrodon much prefers storm drain and the others with it arent to viable/not bulky enough with stall. I also like acrobatics on talonflame, but it doesnt really fit in with stall. You can always use mail ;)

 

[Jojobobo]

The thing with Mega Venusaur is that it's completely walled by Blissey or Chansey with Aromatherapy and Softboiled (or Ferrothorn, or Lum Berry Harvest Trevenant). Then once you switch out your Venusaur they can switch back in their Knocker Offer, allowing the annoyance to continue. Gliscor seems like the only true counter, unless you want to result to running mail.

 

[Garchompi]

I know you can use Weakness Policy (well, not if that bug still persists)

Does this mean Knock Off is supposed to activate WP before it gets dropped?

 

[Jojobobo]

Apparently so according to people earlier in the thread, it was confirmed by in-game testing.

Having a think about it, Choice Band Justified Terakion would love to be hit by knock off - retaining the Choice Band level of attack whilst freeing up it's moves. It also takes pitiful damage from Knock Off in most instances, if we look at a hit from CB Adaptability Crawdaunt (about as strong as Knock Off gets):

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 180-212 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Then scoring an easy OHKO in return:

+1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 668-788 (249.2 - 294%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[M BLADE]

Is there any good strategies against Knock Off, outside of using a mega?

Start using Magician Klefki and you'll see the ultimate counter to Knock Off.
Or don't and use something actually useful eh

 

[BROloom]

Apparently so according to people earlier in the thread, it was confirmed by in-game testing.

Having a think about it, Choice Band Justified Terakion would love to be hit by knock off - retaining the Choice Band level of attack whilst freeing up it's moves. It also takes pitiful damage from Knock Off in most instances, if we look at a hit from CB Adaptability Crawdaunt (about as strong as Knock Off gets):

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 180-212 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Then scoring an easy OHKO in return:

+1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 668-788 (249.2 - 294%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's not really the best scenario, since the only way a Crawdaunt would be using knock off on Terrakion is if he switched in, and you better hope that it is banded, because if it's not, you're dying to the incoming Aqua Jet. Even if you do manage to come in on a CB Crawdaunt that happens to use knock off, you'd be getting, at best, 1 kill, before Crawdaunt comes back in for the revenge kill. You either die, or switch out, losing that +1 boost, now having an itemless Terrakion, and something else has to take an adaptability aqua jet.

 

[Jojobobo]

I was using it as an example of a highly damaging Knock Off, nothing more nothing less. However, the only Crawdaunts I've seen do have CB in which case it would be easy to switch in take the hit (noting that it's locked in and not taking LO recoil), let it switch out and then either Stone Edge (100% chance to OHKO on the normal non-defense invested variants - yes, Terakion is that good), Close Combat or X-Scissor (if you were running it) could kill it on the switch back in. Really, unless you were running a CB on Crawdaunt, you really may as well run an Azumarill with its vastly superior defensive typing and defensive stats.

 

[Jaroda]

Justified Lucario resists Dark, will receive an Attack boost, and his mega stone can't be removed. There's virtually no better switch in.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

I've been using this set for Donphan and it's been a very great addition to my team:

Donphan @ Assault Vest
Impish Nature
EVs: 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 Sp. Def
-Knock Off
-Earthquake
-Ice Shard
-Rapid Spin

Knock Off is generally my first choice and its great for hitting flyer switch-ins. Not many Mega-Pokemon switch into Donphan, so more likely you'll hit a Leftovers or something off. My favorite thing is when people try to switch in Gliscor on predicted Earthquakes only to have Toxic Orb be knocked off. Assault Vest let's it take some special hits better while he can hit hard back with STAB EQ. Knock Off works great on Donphan because he has a respectable attack stat and it hits spin-blockers for Super-Effective, usually taking out a third to half their HP. Test this out if you want a versatile spinner!

 

[deluge]

I have a question about how this move interacts with Sheer Force.
The ability should remove the secondary effect (item removal) while boosting the move's power x1.3.
But the move's power is boosted by x1.5 when the target has a removable item and the item will not be removed (?).
So will it be 65 * 1.5 * 1.3 = ~126 consistently ( or ~164 with Life Orb)?
Or will the fact that the item will not be removed cancel the x1.5 bonus?
Has anyone tested this? It just depends on how it was coded.
Kingler learns Knock Off (egg move) with Sheer Force.

 

[youngjake93]

I have a question about how this move interacts with Sheer Force.
The ability should remove the secondary effect (item removal) while boosting the move's power x1.3.
But the move's power is boosted by x1.5 when the target has a removable item and the item will not be removed (?).
So will it be 65 * 1.5 * 1.3 = ~126 consistently ( or ~164 with Life Orb)?
Or will the fact that the item will not be removed cancel the x1.5 bonus?
Has anyone tested this? It just depends on how it was coded.
Kingler learns Knock Off (egg move) with Sheer Force.

Knocking of the item is a primary effect, not a secondary one

 

[deluge]

Knocking of the item is a primary effect, not a secondary one

Are you just saying that or was it checked?
(I know item removal has 100% chance of occurring provided that the target has a removable item and no countering ability.
But I think Sheer Force also negates Flame Charge's speed boost which is usually guaranteed; prevents Meloetta from transforming with Relic Song etc.)

 

[TKGriffiths]

I know Gliscor's been mentioned before but here's a set I've been using with some success.

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 184 Spd / 244 HP / 80 Def
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Substitute
- Toxic

The speed investment is to outspeed all Rotom. I experimented with different moves like Roost, Protect, Taunt and U-Turn and settled on this. Sub/Toxic/Earthquake need no explanation really except to say that I prefer Substitute to Protect because your opponent can't play around it to get free turns and it allows you to beat all Rotom lacking Hidden Power (or Shadow Ball I suppose) by stalling out their STAB move's PP or waiting for it to miss/weaken itself so that it can't break the sub.

Knock Off has a lot of synergy with Substitute for the same reason as Toxic, you can use it as a shield while you Toxic/Knock Off a pokemon that would otherwise force you out. Gliscor finds a lot of chances to set up Substitute against the physical pokes it walls, weak status users like Chansey and most importantly Rotom. Also important is Knock Off's ability to break Air Balloon pokemon immune to Toxic (notably Excadrill and Heatran) and also Gengar which would otherwise totally wall Gliscor.

It also gives Gliscor a much better time against stall pokemon like Chansey and Sableye which you can eventually beat or force out by depriving them of their Eviolite/Leftovers and wearing them down with Toxic/Earthquake while they fail to do significant damage with Seismic Toss/Foul Play. Roost would be a superior choice to Substitute to 100% reliably beat these pokemon because they can wear you down and win if you've taken some previous damage. But just getting rid of their item generally makes them easy pickings for the rest of the team and you'll usually get a free turn out of pokes like Sableye because they have to Taunt to avoid the Toxic.

It's just a quality move in general against any pokemon, nobody likes losing their item.

 

[Rotosect]

With this move being so common now I was wondering if offensive teams should consider running a pokemon with Unburden to take advantage of it.
Unburden is supposed to double the user's speed as soon as the item is "lost", not just "consumed", meaning Knock Off should activate it.
Slurpuff immediatly comes to mind since it resists dark and gets fairy/fire coverage which lets it it almost every relevant Knock Off user for at least neutral damage. It will most likely force a switch against the likes of Conkeldurr and Bisharp, so it could set up a Calm Mind on that turn and attempt to sweep.
Hawlucha and Hitmonlee are other options, though the former has issues with Aegislash and the latter is a bit too frail by OU standards.

 

[neooo]

Someone told me Sticky Hold users still receive the bonus damage dealt from Knock Off, despite not losing their items.

Can anyone confirm this?

 

[Strykeypoo]

Someone told me Sticky Hold users still receive the bonus damage dealt from Knock Off, despite not losing their items.

Can anyone confirm this?

Considering Mega users take the extra damage without losing their item, that would be consistent.

Taking a blind speculative guess, but I suspect Knock Off does a simple check of ' if pokemon holding item = yes THEN BP=97.5'.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Knock off works great on sableye. A sableye with will-o-wisp and taunt should pack either foul play or knock off. Knock off cripples weakness policy dragonites

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Considering Mega users take the extra damage without losing their item, that would be consistent.

Taking a blind speculative guess, but I suspect Knock Off does a simple check of ' if pokemon holding item = yes THEN BP=97.5'.

Knock Off actually does not get the boost against Mega Stone holders, nor against Giratina with the Griseous Orb. Sticky Hold users, however, still take the extra damage while not losing their item.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Knock_Off_(move)

 

[ModelT]

As an idea to counter Knock Off:

Meinshao @ no item, or one time use item that's easy to use, such as Normal Gem.
EVs: Typical save perhaps a small Def investment (200 Att / 54 Def / 252 Speed or something similar enough) to deal w/ taking Knock Off hits.
Nature: Jolly or Adamant, other options explorable.
- Acrobatics
- U-Turn
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
Other moves: Fake Out

The reason I chose Mienshao for this particular role, despite his mediocre Def stats, if for multiple reasons. 1) He resists Dark Type attacks, 2) He learns Acrobatics and can deal serious damage with it, 3) Regenerator allows him to take the hit well on a switch, counter w/ Acrobatics, HJK for STAB damage, or use Knock Off, and switch away for heals, and 4) Of all the possible options, this guy probably misses the item slot the least. Other Bonus: Ghosts like to switch in on the predictable HJK, and Knock Off deals serious damage.
In the case where you ARE using the normal Gem, you can lead w/ Meinshao and use Fake Out the first turn for free flinching and extra damage. This adds to the strategy of pulling switches as well, as after a switch, foes will be expecting the Fake Out.

Other prime candidates for a similar counter strategy, that can utilize Acrobatics and resist Dark, are: Hawlucha and Yveltel, Greninja, and Primeape... Hawlucha, Infernape, and Yveltel are the best of these options, as they have use otherwise.
Hawlucha gets STAB from Acrobatics, has higher Def than Meinshao, Roost for healing, but Unburden is pointless so go w/ Mold Breaker.
Yveltel also STABs Acrobatics, has Legendary (680) stats, has Roost, and a slew of other great options that allow him to not worry about having an item. (Legendary base 680 Stats will do that...)
Infernape has the dual typing that gives him more options, as well as the ability to Stealth Rock (post bank). This guy may miss the item slot the most though.

 

[Strykeypoo]

Knock Off actually does not get the boost against Mega Stone holders, nor against Giratina with the Griseous Orb. Sticky Hold users, however, still take the extra damage while not losing their item.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Knock_Off_(move)

Well shit, sorry for the misinfo, I was going off of something I read over a month ago.

 

[neooo]

Knock Off actually does not get the boost against Mega Stone holders, nor against Giratina with the Griseous Orb. Sticky Hold users, however, still take the extra damage while not losing their item.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Knock_Off_(move)

Whelp shucks I thought Muk might have seen some action this gen.

Back to the drawing board I suppose...

 

[Jaroda]

How does Knock Off work with Sticky Barb? It get knocked off or passed to the attacker?

I also want to know if this works with Kee Berry, if that's the right one, where your Defense goes up if hit with a physical attack. Will the berry work first or be knocked off? If it activates, there are some sick, albeit gimmicky, abusers of that, names Terakion and Gallade.

 

[ZakSB]

Justified Lucario resists Dark, will receive an Attack boost, and his mega stone can't be removed. There's virtually no better switch in.

This and the same goes for Mega Absol as well.
Also Unbuden Slurpuff can come and usually force a switch since most common Knock Off users are Fairy weak.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

Is there any good strategies against Knock Off, outside of using a mega? I dislike that you almost have to run a mega if you're using a stall team because of Knock Off, even then you can't do anything useful when you switch in (such as setting up) as they might have Foul Play. Plus few megas have recovery, so even then you have to take a hit and lose some of your precious HP.

I know you can use Weakness Policy (well, not if that bug still persists), but that's still only a one time deal and you have to pass up recovery for it (you can also then be phazed, or just walled by something appropriate, etc.). I imagine Game Freak increased the BP to encourage mega usage - but they've just made a move that is exceptionally easy to put on any team and has an enormous beneficial effect; Mandibuzz in particular makes very brutal use of it but so can any other bulky or fast pokemon that has it.

My favorite knock off absorber is, indeed, a mega, but you can look him over and see if he works for you.

Scizor @ Scizorite
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
Impish/Relaxed Nature
- Defog
- Knock Off
- U-Turn
- Roost

You could try something with Sticky hold, although there aren't that many viable users. Gastrodon misses Storm Drain too much and Accelegor takes 50%+ damage from most knock offs even at 65 bp, so Muk/Swalot would really be the most viable option to use sticky hold, and they aren't exactly viable in OU. So, eh.