Pokémon Kyurem-Black

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Then Kyurem White would be in OU rite? Because although its movepool is shallow, it has enough to make it a huge threat unlike Kyube which lacks even a good physical ice STAB

The sole reason KyuW is much better is because it can nuke stuff safely and many steels happen to be Physically bulky

Like, if Kyurem Black want to nuke stuff with Outrage, because Dragon Claw only have 80 BP, it need to know that no faster dragon is on the opposing team(team preview helps) or a Steel switch in won't ruin its parade. After this, throw in external factors such as Scarf or Band in the picture. This is before including burn in the whole stuff, which ruined its physical attack power if it hits

How about Kyurem white? "Draco. Freaking. Meteor". If it get burned, it can simply switch in again and spam more DM. I don't think I need to give calcs, just take a look at how monstrous DM Latios is, but increase the damage output by around 20%. Really though, as useful as Ice Beam might be for Kyurem White, Draco Meteor is basically everything it need

The difference is much bigger than simply "LOL KYUBEE DON'T HAVE PHYSICAL ICE MOVE WHICH IS WHY ITS OU"

Finally anyone who said Kyu-W has shallow movepool should be shot. Dragon/Fire/Fighting/Earth coverage is bad how?

Going slightly for theorymonning area, Physical equivalent of Draco Meteor, Icicle Crash, Icicle Shard, Earthquake, and a Fire type Physical move with decent BP might be needed


TL;dr If Kyurem Black want to match Kyurem White, STAB Physical Ice move is NOT what it need.



quo
A minor nitpick, but Kyu-B doesn't care about Multiscale anyway because of Teravolt. Also, it outspeeds neutral-natured Dnite (if you run Speed EVs, anyway. But who doesnt?).
FUCK HOW CAN I FORGOT ABOUT THAT SEXY ICE BEAM THAT CAN KILL MEGASAUR

shame to the famiry

Commit Sudowoodo
 
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Rotosect

Banned deucer.
STABmons and Hackmons have pretty much proven that with a reliable physical ice STAB Kyurem-B is utterly broken and the only reason it's not banned from those metagames is because everything else is broken too.
Kyurem-B is pretty much what Ho-oh would have been if it didn't get Sacred Fire. Sometimes a single move can make a world of difference.

252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 168-198 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 178-210 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 44.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 372-438 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 363-427 (92.1 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO


Icicle Crash alone would ensure that Kyu-B can beat its main checks without much trouble. It might be just the push it needs to go back to ubers.
Anyway enough theorymoning, because Kyu-B can still beat them without Icicle Crash, though not as easily.
 
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Icicle crash is nowhere near as good as refrigerate extreme speed. Either way this conversation is pointless. We should be discussing optimal sets for Kyurem-b in the tier he is in, not the tier we wish he was in.
 
The sole reason KyuW is much better is because it can nuke stuff safely and many steels happen to be Physically bulky

Like, if Kyurem Black want to nuke stuff with Outrage, because Dragon Claw only have 80 BP, it need to know that no faster dragon is on the opposing team(team preview helps) or a Steel switch in won't ruin its parade. After this, throw in external factors such as Scarf or Band in the picture. This is before including burn in the whole stuff, which ruined its physical attack power if it hits

How about Kyurem white? "Draco. Freaking. Meteor". If it get burned, it can simply switch in again and spam more DM. I don't think I need to give calcs, just take a look at how monstrous DM Latios is, but increase the damage output by around 20%. Really though, as useful as Ice Beam might be for Kyurem White, Draco Meteor is basically everything it need

The difference is much bigger than simply "LOL KYUBEE DON'T HAVE PHYSICAL ICE MOVE WHICH IS WHY ITS OU"

Finally anyone who said Kyu-W has shallow movepool should be shot. Dragon/Fire/Fighting/Earth coverage is bad how?

Going slightly for theorymonning area, Physical equivalent of Draco Meteor, Icicle Crash, Icicle Shard, Earthquake, and a Fire type Physical move with decent BP might be needed


TL;dr If Kyurem Black want to match Kyurem White, STAB Physical Ice move is NOT what it need.



quo


FUCK HOW CAN I FORGOT ABOUT THAT SEXY ICE BEAM THAT CAN KILL MEGASAUR

shame to the famiry

Commit Sudowoodo
I think you misunderstand my point... My argument was that kyurem b does not have the physical movepool to be broken in OU and good in ubers, which was why its in OU. I meant to compare kyurem white as since they have the same typing, they can generally be revenged by the same things, and so saying that it is revenged by terrakion and scizor etc is not a good argument for kyurem Bs presence in OU
 
Having trouble deciding between Outrage and Fusion Bolt on my special set. The insane damage it affords can take out Blissey/Chansey at around 50% HP (which Fusion Bolt can't) but you lose out on lightning coverage and a less risky physical attack.
 
Having trouble deciding between Outrage and Fusion Bolt on my special set. The insane damage it affords can take out Blissey/Chansey at around 50% HP (which Fusion Bolt can't) but you lose out on lightning coverage and a less risky physical attack.
Fusion Bolt all the way. Ice+Electric is a very well known and effective coverage to use. Dragon is redundant to Ice Beam and only hits Dragon for super effective. Last generation it was ok, since only steel resisted it but now there are fairies which are totally immun to this move. Not to mention, you are locked into that move and get confused as well, being forced to switch. And while you are behind a sub, your opponent can't do much to Kyurem with their Blissey/Chansay, if you are worried about that Toxin, Thunderwave etc.
 
Fusion Bolt all the way. Ice+Electric is a very well known and effective coverage to use. Dragon is redundant to Ice Beam and only hits Dragon for super effective. Last generation it was ok, since only steel resisted it but now there are fairies which are totally immun to this move. Not to mention, you are locked into that move and get confused as well, being forced to switch. And while you are behind a sub, your opponent can't do much to Kyurem with their Blissey/Chansay, if you are worried about that Toxin, Thunderwave etc.
Ya, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
 
I guess... I mean, Ice Beam and Fusion Bolt completely massacres his supposed "counters" in fairies; Azumarill's a clean OHKO, but it might have trouble with specially defensive Togekiss if uninvested. Perhaps a LO Physically based mixed set would work?

EDIT: Dragon moves are definitely necessary; it puts tremendous pressure on the opponent to bring out their Steel or Fairy types, only to be dealt appropriately with smart switching. Just don't use lock-in moves like Outrage.
 
Has anyone else tried a rest-talk set?
Rest + Sleep Talk + Fusion Bolt + Outrage with leftovers
It lets you use 120 BP Dragon move without being locked into it.
Admittedly when I tried it on my team this set only enjoyed mild success...
 

Aragorn the King

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This spread has given me the most success:

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 200 Spd / 252 SAtk / 56 Atk
Hasty Nature
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power

It has just enough speed to outspeed Jolly Excadrill. The rest of the EV's are put in Special Attack, which is the attack used the most, and attack, to make Fusion Bolt hit harder. This Kyurem completely walls Rotom-W, and can set up substitute on it when it tries to Will-O-Wisp, and then 2HKO with Earth Power.
 
This spread has given me the most success:

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 200 Spd / 252 SAtk / 56 Atk
Hasty Nature
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power

It has just enough speed to outspeed Jolly Excadrill. The rest of the EV's are put in Special Attack, which is the attack used the most, and attack, to make Fusion Bolt hit harder. This Kyurem completely walls Rotom-W, and can set up substitute on it when it tries to Will-O-Wisp, and then 2HKO with Earth Power.
You would put those atk evs into HP for 56 EVS=405 HP=101 HP subs and an odd HP number
 
Even with all the fairies in the meta, Kyurem was largely unaffected compared to other dragons. The only thing securing it OU more than last gen (besides the mountains of garbage we've yet to solve) is the fact that we have access to Hyper Voice w/pixilate to cut through the sub. That's about it.

A tad slow, mmm. Had Mega Latias gotten some speed, I think Kyurem would basically see the days of its band set go. I've been working on a stall team for a few months now (Jesus it's been a long project) and I look at Kyurem-b....



"Uh Oh". Seriously, it takes a good deal of work to try and find anything to stop this monster. Kind of like keeping a revenge killer around for it on stall, so I can at least break the sub and force it back out. The other way stall can beat this is with multiple abusers of roar, to make it lose 50% the first time in (Rocks+sub) if it expects that switch out. Mega venu kind of works like this for a bluff if at full health (and can live to tell the tale if taking a hit).

Overall, this guy in this gen is the SECOND best wall breaker. It loses out to Garchomp-mega, but that's a different story.
 

Aragorn the King

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I wonder if Zygarde will get a B&W bonus form like Kyurem did. 170 attack stats of your choice, Jesus christ no wonder these two were placed in uber.
Kyurem-B was never Uber, iirc. At least it ended up in OU last gen. Also, this is just pure theorymonning, but I think Zygarde will get two mega evolutions in the X & Y sequel. My reasoning, other than 600 BST isn't that high for a main legendary, is the move index. Currently, 6 X & Y moves have not been released. 3 of which are most certainly Volcanion/Diancie/Hoopa's signature moves, as they all are next to each other. Additionally, there are two more unknown moves, and these moves are very conveniently placed after Oblivion Wing and before Land's Wrath. So, in due time I have no doubts Zygarde will be better.

------
But this definitely shouldn't be what we're talking about. Has anyone tried choice band for the immense power?
Even with all the fairies in the meta, Kyurem was largely unaffected compared to other dragons. The only thing securing it OU more than last gen (besides the mountains of garbage we've yet to solve) is the fact that we have access to Hyper Voice w/pixilate to cut through the sub. That's about it.

A tad slow, mmm. Had Mega Latias gotten some speed, I think Kyurem would basically see the days of its band set go. I've been working on a stall team for a few months now (Jesus it's been a long project) and I look at Kyurem-b....



"Uh Oh". Seriously, it takes a good deal of work to try and find anything to stop this monster. Kind of like keeping a revenge killer around for it on stall, so I can at least break the sub and force it back out. The other way stall can beat this is with multiple abusers of roar, to make it lose 50% the first time in (Rocks+sub) if it expects that switch out. Mega venu kind of works like this for a bluff if at full health (and can live to tell the tale if taking a hit).

Overall, this guy in this gen is the SECOND best wall breaker. It loses out to Garchomp-mega, but that's a different story.
Why would you say M-Garchomp is better? KyuB can kill Rotom-W and M-Venusaur effortlessly, two annoying defensive mons Garchomp can't do much to.
 
Since mega chomp generally comes with sand, mega venu has no buisness there. Rotom also isn't enjoying a stone edge more than once. So yeah, it CAN stop it a bit, but it can really only function as a check. Not to mention if chomp runs SD (From my understanding, most physical based do), it's going to ruin most stall as they have to come in on the SD and get hit for +2. More importantly, it can go mixed and destroy skarm, making the only real loss to Togekiss (immune to outrage/EQ, fire blast does little... and generally stone edge is dropped so to run SD/Draco).

252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W in Sand: 131-155 (43 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 181-214 (59.5 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

More importantly, Skarmbliss annihilated, Tran crushed, and Venu crushed if coupled with a sand setter (which chomp is). Also can break grounded fairies with a stab unresisted physical move (screw Whimsicott). The better movepool/stab combo is nothing short of stellar. And if venu only can recover off 25%, end result is a dead venu.

Granted, this one has more reasonable counters, such as Skarm for non mixed, Toge for some mixed and Slowbro if he can get in somewhat safely.

I would say that it is definitely scarier from the understanding that teams are built AROUND chomp instead of just including him.

Kyub kind of runs its own thing, people add it to take care of stall (which, sometimes I feel is shortsighted considering how it's played vs me...). A good kyurem should beat me, yet often enough once you catch the general idea of what it runs, you can stall out fusion bolt/a low PP move and simply count it as a nonfactor after.
 
Has anyone tried choice band for the immense power?
I tried it out on one of my teams as part of a duo-Dragon core, and the power is real. What I like about it is CB Fusion Bolt actually has a decent chance to 2HKO defensive Sylveon and Clefable after Leftovers (guaranteed with rocks unless Magic Guard is in play), meaning you're more free to "spam" it against opposing teams. Outrage, should you feel safe enough to use it, also heavily dents some of the more common, non-Fairy switch-ins to the Sub set. Obviously being locked into moves hurts it, but with the right prediction and the usual Defog/cleric support, it is a phenomenal wallbreaker.
 
Anyone been using this thing defensively? It has 125/100/90 defenses, access to roost, access to dragon tail, and a good typing for tanking special hits.
And with 170 attack he will be hitting incredibly hard while uninvested.
This is the set I would advise:

Kyu-B + Leftovers
Adamant | 252 Hp / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
-Roost
-Dragon Tail
-Ice Beam
-Facade

Facade is kinda underrated on the #1 burn magnet in ou and hits harder than dragon claw when statused (it hits actually really surprisingly hard, remember it hits as hard as boomburst)- it'll 2hko rotom-W, and this set will then turn you into a surefire rotom counter, giving no fux about any 6hko modest choice specs hydro pumps from the most offensive rotom possible. With roost he can stomach a lot of punishment from neutral hits, for instance taking 47% maximum from a flash fire boosted offensive modest heatran, giving him the ability to roost off the damage and phase- even through burn damage (which gives a 2% chance of a 2hko). It also gives you a boosted facade to then use later on pokemon. Pair this with a hazard setter (even just stealth rock) and you're set.

4+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Due to its typing it gets some pretty nice resistances to water and electric moves, as well as grass moves. It also is neutral to fire ad ice type moves, which is why I think a specially defensive set is most effective, and with facade can be a status absorber. With the above spread, it will do more damage to mega gardevoir with a boosted facade than mega gardevoir will deal back with pixilate hyper voice... which is saying something. It also avoids being ohkod by hyper voice 94% of the time with the above spread. Itll never get ohkod if you use a special defense boosting nature. Defensive fairy types like clefable and togekiss will fail to 2hko with their super effective moves, and both are 2hkoed by boosted facade.

I actualy tried this out and it works. Act as a hard-hitting, very bulky shuffler which is very difficult to take down due to self recovery- and anyone that tries to take you down with burn or toxic will turn you into an incredibly hard hitting offensive pokemon. You can also deal with defoggers with the ice beam, which destroys all of them apart from mega scizor. Physically defensive mandibuzz is 2hkod by the beam 77% of the time for example. Adamant nature is somewhat too good to pass up on due to it boosting his attack by so much due to percentages. Also 4 Atk kyu-b with attack boosting nature has comparable damage to 252 Atk lando-t with attack boosting nature... look at this comparison for example:

4+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%)

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%)

So kyurem-b with almost no attack investment can rival the damage output of fully offensive lando-T's most powerful attack with a non-STAB attack. yeaaaa

the two also pair together pretty damn well. kyub can take any ice beams with relative ease, and lando-t covers basically all kyub's weaknesses and also puts up stealth rock for kyub to shuffle people into.
 
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Aragorn the King

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Anyone been using this thing defensively? It has 125/100/90 defenses, access to roost, access to dragon tail, and a good typing for tanking special hits.
And with 170 attack he will be hitting incredibly hard while uninvested.
This is the set I would advise:

Kyu-B + Leftovers
Adamant | 252 Hp / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
-Roost
-Dragon Tail
-Ice Beam
-Facade

Facade is kinda underrated on the #1 burn magnet in ou and hits harder than dragon claw when statused (it hits actually really surprisingly hard, remember it hits as hard as boomburst)- it'll 2hko rotom-W, and this set will then turn you into a surefire rotom counter, giving no fux about any 6hko modest choice specs hydro pumps from the most offensive rotom possible. With roost he can stomach a lot of punishment from neutral hits, for instance taking 47% maximum from a flash fire boosted offensive modest heatran, giving him the ability to roost off the damage and phase- even through burn damage (which gives a 2% chance of a 2hko). It also gives you a boosted facade to then use later on pokemon. Pair this with a hazard setter (even just stealth rock) and you're set.

4+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Due to its typing it gets some pretty nice resistances to water and electric moves, as well as grass moves. It also is neutral to fire ad ice type moves, which is why I think a specially defensive set is most effective, and with facade can be a status absorber. With the above spread, it will do more damage to mega gardevoir with a boosted facade than mega gardevoir will deal back with pixilate hyper voice... which is saying something. It also avoids being ohkod by hyper voice 94% of the time with the above spread. Itll never get ohkod if you use a special defense boosting nature. Defensive fairy types like clefable and togekiss will fail to 2hko with their super effective moves, and both are 2hkoed by boosted facade.

I actualy tried this out and it works. Act as a hard-hitting, very bulky shuffler which is very difficult to take down due to self recovery- and anyone that tries to take you down with burn or toxic will turn you into an incredibly hard hitting offensive pokemon. You can also deal with defoggers with the ice beam, which destroys all of them apart from mega scizor. Physically defensive mandibuzz is 2hkod by the beam 77% of the time for example. Adamant nature is somewhat too good to pass up on due to it boosting his attack by so much due to percentages. Also 4 Atk kyu-b with attack boosting nature has comparable damage to 252 Atk lando-t with attack boosting nature... look at this comparison for example:

4+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%)

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%)

So kyurem-b with almost no attack investment can rival the damage output of fully offensive lando-T's most powerful attack with a non-STAB attack. yeaaaa

the two also pair together pretty damn well. kyub can take any ice beams with relative ease, and lando-t covers basically all kyub's weaknesses and also puts up stealth rock for kyub to shuffle people into.
Why use Ice Beam with an adamant nature. Since that set is defensive, I think the best option would to use a Brave nature, as speed isn't that important.
 
Considering the most common set is Sub+3 attacks and the most common W-o-W user is Rotom-W (who is slower than Kyurem-B) it's not really much of a burn magnet at all.
Was slightly exaggerating :p but without a sub people are going to definitely try and status him. I got the impression that half the reason sub is so good is because of the status getting thrown at him.
 

art3mis

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it is the only physical ice attack it learns
I highly suggest Ice Beam over Freeze Shock. Freeze Shock is usually a one time thing that either wastes a turn having to charge, and in that time is actually out damaged by two Ice Beams, or you have to waste an item slot (Power Herb) to let it work efficiently. It's just not worth it.
 
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