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Lanturn (OU Analysis)

while im normally not a big fan of using uu's in ou (bar a few), i must say this set is surprisingly really good. Being a strong settup sweeper and able to counter starmie, i definitly feel it deserves a spot on analysis. lanturns best set in ou imo.
 
K, I'm convinced.

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I've played against it once I think, it wasn't actually too bad and held its weight in OU.

EDIT: Jonathan, you'll first need three stamps to get this approved, in which this analysis would be moved to the OU analysis subforum, where you can work on the analysis.
 
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As I said, I'd take some time to test this set, and so I did. I played constantly with it for about 3 hours, and the outcomes were satisfactory; I even tried out other options such as Thunderbolt in tandem with Charge Beam so that CM Suicune would experiment larger troubles with this set, but Ice Beam is really necessary for beating the likes of Breloom, Salamence and Dragonite under a Substitute. So yeah, this set can now be moved to OU.
 
Jonathan said:
=)

So do I need to write an overview now because Lanturn doesn't have one for OU?
Click to expand...
Yes, if a Pokemon is going to have OU sets it needs OU sections (Overview, Optional Changes, TO, Counters.), some of the current sections already mention OU stuff so they will need to be separated out.. and it needs the EVs/OO merge. Will need a fair amount of messing about, probably by whoever uploads.


and three stamps so moving.
 
Okay, I've added four sections to the analysis: Overview (OU), Team Options (OU), Optional Changes (OU), and Counters (OU).

The Overview and the Counters sections are written. Let me know if the Overview is too cheesy... I had a little fun writing it. I don't know what to say for the other two sections though. I have some rough comments for them in the OP, but if someone could give me some more guidance I'd really appreciate it.
 
In the OU Counters section you mentioned that most physical threats will give Lanturn trouble, but don't forget that the Parafusion set is actually an OU set too, I just wrote it shortly before the different 'tier sections' in analyses came into place. It may be useful for that set to be renamed OU Parafusion, but since it's viable in OU and UU, there's probably no point. Anyway, the Parafusion set runs a lot of Defense EVs, so Lanturn can still survive a lot of their hits and start paralysis + confusion which, if pulled off, often results in them being haxed to death. I'm just telling you this so you don't totally forget that Parafusion is a set geared toward OU, and not UU.
 
Okay, yeah I overlooked that when I was going through the analysis originally. Going through it more thoroughly now I realize it's going to be a big mess integrating the OU and UU parts, as the UU parts haven't been written in the new form. There's also some overlap between what I've written and what's on the site already (mentions of Toxic Spikes for instance). It might be easier to do a total revamp, though I have no experience using Lanturn in UU.

I'd be happy to add some comments in the Counters section about the Parafusion set, though I have no experience using it so I don't think I could really do it justice. Would you like to write a few sentences and I can add them into the analysis?
 
[COUNTERS]
<h4>OU</h4>
<p>Without a Substitute up, most of OU's physical threats can easily force Lanturn out, as they will usually be faster than Lanturn. Be careful switching such Pokemon into Lanturn though, as between Lanturn's offensive coverage and the possibility of having a Substitute up, Lanturn can severely weaken many of OU's top physical threats. In addition, if Lanturn is a Parafuser, it will become a lot harder to force out, especially if the Pokemon is not immune to Thunder Wave. For this reason, a fast Pokemon with U-turn, such as Flygon (Jirachi removed because he absolutely hates paralysis and Lanturn in general), makes a good counter to Lanturn, as it can remove Lanturn's Substitute and switch to an appropriate counter in the same turn. (removed Scizor from counters; he does a ton of damage to himself in confusion and has a lot of trouble taking a Hydro Pump from the SubCharge set)</p>

<p>On the special side, countering Lanturn is a lot harder. Choice Scarf Heatran's Earth Power is a 2HKO against the SubCharge set, but keep in mind that Hydro Pump will OHKO you. Gengar is not usually a safe bet, but can always work in a pinch: Shadow Ball is a 3HKO if you are running Life Orb, and Lanturn cannot OHKO Gengar with Hydro Pump. You can always resort to Hypnosis or Explosion if worse comes to worst. However, Gengar needs Substitute to deal with the Parafusion set, as it hates paralysis. Electrics with HP Grass pose a decent threat to Lanturn, especially if they catch Lanturn on the switch-in, but beware that Hydro Pump usually puts the advantage in Lanturn's court in the event of such match-ups. Defensive Rotom-A can incapacitate Lanturn with Will-O-Wisp, but do not stick around as Shadow Ball only does 30% to the SubCharge set while Hydro Pump is a 2HKO. Rotom-C works particularly well with its access to Leaf Storm. Jolteon with HP Grass is easily one of the best counters to the Parafusion set, since it's immune to Thunder Wave, and with some luck can work through confusion.</p>

<p>As far as defensive Pokemon go, Swampert deserves special mention as the only bulky water capable of handling Lanturn: Hydro Pump is only a 3HKO, while Earthquake will scare Lanturn away. Note that Swmapert cannot switch in repeatedly into Lanturn however, as it will quickly succumb to Hydro Pump. Celebi with Leaf Storm also poses a threat to Lanturn, as it is not even 2HKOed by Ice Beam. Grass Knot is a laughing matter for Lanturn though, as it hits for 40 Base Power. Blissey can handle Lanturn if it comes in when Lanturn is low on health, but be wary of a Charge Beam sweep if it comes in on a Lanturn with over 70% health.</p>

<p>Residual damage in the form of entry hazards, Sand Stream damage, and status conditions are perhaps the most effective way to wear Lanturn down. Lanturn's ability to switch in on so much of the OU Metagame is one of the huge draws to using it. Raising the penalty for switching quickly diminishes Lanturn's utility, especially against defensive teams where switching is common. Toxic Spikes are particularly effective at taking out Lanturn, as they remove any chance Lanturn has of sweeping or utilizing parafusion.</p>
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I put in some mentions of the Parafusion set, and I removed counters that are stopped easily by Parafusion, but not SubCharge. You might have to read over it again since I tried to put the mentions in the best places possible, but I might have made it awkward in a couple of places.

This is a very well done analysis by the way.
 
i don't understand why lanturn needs team options or OO sections for the OU environment. shouldn't that be covered in the additional comments for this set?

Jonathan said:
[OVERVIEW]
<h4>OU</h4>
<p>Despite the many Water- and Electric-types in OU, Lanturn fills a niche in the OU metagame that no other Pokemon can. Resistances to some of the most common special attacks, a 4x resistance to Steel, and fantastic coverage with its two STABs and Ice Beam are all very appealing. Immunity to Thunder Wave and other Electric attacks is just the icing on the cake. Lanturn is the closest thing you will find to a 100% counter to Life Orb Starmie and Substitute/Thunder Wave Jirachi, both of whom run rampant in today's metagame. If you're looking for a Pokemon to reliably take on some of OU's top threats and open the floor for a Salamence, Infernape, Heatan, or Gyarados sweep of your own, give Lanturn a splash!</p>

[TEAM OPTIONS]
<h4>OU</h4>
<p>Not sure what to write here, as we're only proposing one set for Lanturn in OU and virtually everything I would write I've already said in the above paragraph. I read through the Team Options section on the Analysis page and it seems very solid. Basically all the same things apply except you'll want to use OU Grass and Flying types instead of UU ones (obviously).</p>

lol you read my mind

[OPTIONAL CHANGES]
<h4>OU</h4>
<p>Again, I'm not sure what I should say as we're only proposing one set for Lanturn in OU, and the only viable alternative option is switching between Surf and Hydro Pump, which I've covered above. Everything else is pretty gimmicky. Looking at the on-site analysis, I would definitely take out the Agility+Life Orb mention; it really doesn't work, I've tried it. You're much better of using Starmie if you want such a set. Stockpile could be mentioned here I guess, though it's very much inferior to Substitute in the OU environment at least.</p>

yeah.

[COUNTERS]
<h4>OU</h4>
<p>Without a Substitute up on the SubCharge set, most of OU's physical threats can easily force Lanturn out, as they will usually be faster than Lanturn. Be careful switching such Pokemon into Lanturn though, as between Lanturn's offensive coverage and the possibility of having a Substitute up, Lanturn can severely weaken many of OU's top physical threats. For this reason Flygon with U-turn makes a particularly good counter to SubCharge Lanturn, as it can remove Lanturn's Substitute and switch to an appropriate counter in the same turn. When using the Parafusion set, Lanturn becomes a lot harder to take down in one blow, especially if the opponent is not immune to Thunder Wave. For this reason Ground-type Pokemon with a powerful Earthquake are strongly recommended to effectively deal with this set.</p>

<p>On the special side, countering Lanturn is a lot harder. Choice Scarf Heatran's Earth Power is a 2HKO against the SubCharge set, but keep in mind that Hydro Pump will OHKO. Gengar is not usually a safe bet, but can always work in a pinch: Shadow Ball is a 3HKO if it is running Life Orb, and Lanturn cannot OHKO Gengar with Hydro Pump. It can always resort to Hypnosis or Explosion though, so watch out for those moves. Gengar needs Substitute to deal with the Parafusion set, as it hates paralysis. Electrics with HP Grass pose a decent threat to SubCharge Lanturn, especially if they catch Lanturn on the switch-in, but note that Hydro Pump usually puts the advantage in Lanturn's court in the event of such match-ups. Defensive Rotom-A can incapacitate Lanturn with Will-O-Wisp, but it should not stick around as Shadow Ball only does 30% while Hydro Pump is a 2HKO. Rotom-C works particularly well with its access to Leaf Storm however. Jolteon with HP Grass is easily one of the best counters to the Parafusion set, since it's immune to Thunder Wave, and Lanturn's Ice Beam won't hit Jolteon for much damage.</p>

<p>As far as defensive Pokemon go, Swampert deserves special mention as the only bulky water capable of handling Lanturn: Hydro Pump is only a 3HKO, while Earthquake will scare Lanturn away. Note that Swampert cannot switch <remove "in"> repeatedly into Lanturn however, as it will quickly succumb to Hydro Pump. Celebi with Leaf Storm also poses a threat to Lanturn, as it is not even 2HKOed by Ice Beam. Grass Knot is a laughing matter for Lanturn though, as it hits for 40 Base Power. Blissey can handle Lanturn if it comes in when Lanturn is low on health, but be wary of a Charge Beam sweep if it comes in on a Lanturn with over 70% health.</p>

<p>Residual damage in the form of entry hazards, Sand Stream damage, and status conditions are perhaps the most effective way to wear Lanturn down. Lanturn's ability to switch in on so much of the OU metagame is one of the huge draws to using it. Raising the penalty for switching quickly diminishes Lanturn's utility, especially against defensive teams where switching is common. Toxic Spikes are particularly effective at taking out Lanturn, as they remove any chance Lanturn has of sweeping or using parafusion.</p>
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note that as of a few weeks ago, pokemon are referred to using the pronouns "he" or "she" (instead of "it")
 
Changes made. Yeah I only included those two sections for the sake of completeness, as I haven't come across a recently modified analysis on site which doesn't have those sections. If I get the okay from a few more people I'll remove Team Options and Other Options. Though now that we have two sets for OU (Parafusion and Subcharge) maybe these sections can be included after all? I still feel all the necessary information is covered under the respective sets though.

Going through and changing the pronouns is going to be a pain...why did we make this change, it just makes the recent analyses inconsistent with the majority of the ones on site.
 
Perhaps this could be added in other options:

On the SubCharge Set, Lanturn could make use of Thunder Wave, but it does not really have a moveslot that can be changed to this.
 
^ That seems like writing something just for the sake of writing something, no offense. It's not really an option on the set because the other four moves give you so much more utility.

I've been thinking maybe to just remove the slash on Surf and move the comments on Surf to OO... thoughts?
 
Your discretion sir!!! Though I think Surf / Hydro Pump and Flamethrower / Fire Blast are usually always slashed due to the user's preference. There are always times where the extra power will get you the win, and always times when the inaccuracy will make you lose. I'd keep it but just mention the KO's you may miss.
 
Jonathan said:
^ That seems like writing something just for the sake of writing something, no offense. It's not really an option on the set because the other four moves give you so much more utility.
Click to expand...

fair enough, great set!
 
Thanks for the input guys! Okay I think this is pretty much finished.

I ended up not writing a Teammates section, as this analysis and the other OU Lanturn analysis on-site (the Parafusion one) both cover viable team options; anything else would just be repetition. I read through the Team Options section on the Analysis page and it seems very solid. Basically all the same things apply except you'll want to use OU Grass and Flying types instead of UU ones (obviously). If, for the sake of consistency, something absolutely needs to be written I'll do it, but I don't feel it would add anything to the analysis.

For OO I feel even more confident there is nothing else to add. The set I'm proposing really has no other options, and as for the Parafusion set I think the individual analysis covers everything. Looking at the on-site analysis, I would definitely take out the Agility+Life Orb mention; it really doesn't work, I've tried it. You're much better of using Starmie if you want such a set. Stockpile could be mentioned here I guess, though it's very much inferior to Substitute in the OU environment at least. I suggest combining the OO on-site for UU & OU, just take out the mention of Agility/Life Orb (for OU at least, maybe someone has used it successfully in UU.
 
I swear, I had an epifany that involved this set being on smogon site, and completely obliterating alongside a Flygon and a Gyarados.

Very interesting set, I've grown tired of just using the Parafusion set in OU, now we've got a SubCharge set! The analysis is also very well written, so good job with all this; glad to see that people are finally realizing Lanturn has potential in OU.

And to relate to the current discussion better, Surf should only be used if you play this Lanturn defensively. If you have any plans to setup and "sweep" with this, run hydro pump as it allows you to keep that offensive power that you want from this set. If you just want to use this in a more defensive manner, surf is your move.
 
I would definitely take out the Agility+Life Orb mention; it really doesn't work, I've tried it.
Click to expand...
I don't know Jonathan I tried Agility + Life Orb yesterday with amazing results. You say Starmie is better than that.. but I think is actually inaccurate. Lanturn almost matches Starmie in power if you use a Modest nature, and has STAB on thunderbolt, 4Xs resist to Bullet Punch, Immune to Thunder-wave and Electric pokemon in general (fuck you Jolteon), doesn't give a fuck about Magnezone.. doesnt give a shit about Celebi's pussy Grass Knot, doesn't care if cune tries Calm Minding, etc. Not to mention Laturn has PLENTY of opportunities to attempt a sweep given all the things he walls (like that same Life Orb Starmie your saying is better :)).

Perhaps your EVs are different? I was using this spread and encourage others to give it a try:

Lanturn (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 32 HP/224 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Agility
- Thunderbolt
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
---

Also, might have helped that I'm giving it spikes support.
 
I absolutely agree with Raikou Lover, as I have used Agility + Life Orb in the past with great results. Coupled with spikes support, it's an absolute beast.

Be sure to use a Timid Nature, though, as you need the jump on Scarf Flygon.
 
Hm, well I'll trust your judgement on the issue, it's been at least nine months since I've run the set. From what I remember, although you have many opportunities to switch in, Lanturn can't OHKO many of its common switch-ins even with Life Orb (Tyranitar, Metagross, Swampert, Machamp, not to mention the more defensive Pokemon you may face). I can definitely see Spikes helping out against such opponents though, and in general I could see this set working late-game when many things are weakened. But because of Lanturn's typing and ability, it's often very hard to resist switching her in earlier on in the match, a point in the game where this set would be a lot less effective. And in that sense Starmie is better as it doesn't waste a turn setting up Agility, and it can run Recover instead, which allows LO Starmie to be used both mid-game (although with fewer switch-in opportunities than Lanturn has) and late-game.

Anyway, a lot of what I wrote out above is pure theorymon, as like I said haven't used the set recently. If you stand by it then at the very least it deserves a mention in OO. I'll expand on that section later this week when I have some more time. Thanks for the heads up!
 
Lanturn isn't exactly the most powerful thing.. I wouldn't use Timid just for Flygon.. he sucks. But hey.. its up to you Jonathan I would at least give it another test.
 
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