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Lati@s Discussion Thread

Will, lati@s have more weaknesses than salamence, but I would really welcome Latias' support options, especially wish and the screens. More Tyranitar and Scizor isn't nice, though. :(

RL, wouldn't some kind of poll be nice on this thread? we get to see what most people think better with it. Eh?

Also, thanks for this great thread RL. You're really awesome.

Thanks for your time ;)
 
Thanks! Hmmm, but what kind of poll are you suggesting? Preconceived tier status? Which one are you more eager to test? Which set are most eager to test?
 
I disagree with Soul Dew being allowed into Standard for the very same reasons
that Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S got banned; They took simply little to no skill to
use
 
^pyrzi, Soul Dew is going to be banned in the test, so that's not an issue.

Personally, I'd be concerned about the whole 'Double Dragon' thing that these two Pokemon offer. If I can lure out Blissey early on with an Exploding Gengar/Heatran/something, then a Specs Latias could put massive dents in pretty much everything that threatens to stop an offensive CM Latios sweep. Or Specs Latios and a Recover/Calm Mind/Dragon Pulse/Substitute or Refresh Latios might work better together.
 
Will, something like 'do you want them in OU or Uber' is fine in my opinion, since I really wanna see what people think of them in OU.
Then we can see how the 'public' agrees with the 'community' or not.
What do you think?
 
Amre92 said:
Will, something like 'do you want them in OU or Uber' is fine in my opinion, since I really wanna see what people think of them in OU.
Then we can see how the 'public' agrees with the 'community' or not.
What do you think?
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Eh. The test is coming up, so it wouldn't really matter. Personally, I'd rather not have preconceived notions potentially clouding the test like the Skymin hype did the Skymin test.

Frankly, any opinions right now would be based on pure theorymon, and would be quite pointless.
 
Honestly, I can't wait until these are tested. Apart from their items, I believe they have a good chance of moving to OU. Their base stats are really solid and they could bring much diversity to the game.
 
Bob Marley said:
Honestly, I can't wait until these are tested. Apart from their items, I believe they have a good chance of moving to OU. Their base stats are really solid and they could bring much diversity to the game.
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I disagree. While this is pure theorymon, I believe if anything they will bring even more reliance on Steels and Priority. I think Latias has a good chance at OU. Latios I'm a bit unsure of. On paper, Specs Draco Meteor off those stats without SpecsMence's debilitating SR weak sounds like it might be a bit much.
 
Faster with higher special attack and no 4x weaks. As for SR, there are no plans to actually test it, so it should be assumed they are around.
 
Mence may have a 4x weakness, but Latios still has 2 other weaknesses that Mence doesn't have to worry about. Sure, his stats are higher, but that is something we will test to see how overpowering it may be.
 
Apples and oranges guys. Sure, you may like one more than the other, but they aren't really comparable as they serve two different purposes. Salamence has a 4x weakness, sure, but Latios is frail and has FIVE individual weaknesses. Even regularly effective moves are going to hurt too *coughbulletpunchcough*

I'm with Tleilax on the poll. If anything, make a poll about which one you look forward to testing more: Latias, Latios, Neither
 
For the record so everyone stops saying this: Latios is even more frail than Salamence is....... 80 / 80 Defense vs. 95 / 80 Defense + Intimidate. Remember that shit switching in on Latios is going to be physical nearly 150% of the time.
 
I'm trying to incorporate Latias into a updated version of Obi's stall team, but I can't find where to put it. Any thing that's replaced takes away something vital to the team. Help?
 
ChelseaFC said:
I'm trying to incorporate Latias into a updated version of Obi's stall team, but I can't find where to put it. It is the best infernape counter, so it could replace Tentacruel, but then you lose out on toxic spikes. Any thing that's replaced takes away something vital to the team. Help?
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wish latias might be able to replace blissey. no natural cure is a bummer though.
 
I don't think she would fit well on Obi's particular stall team. It's really too well built because everything does such a specific job so well. My candidate would be Celebi since it gets much the same resists, but the Perish Song is invaluable. However, it is perfectly viable to put her on a stall team in tandem with Blissey. She does Zapdos' job pretty well as the sturdy fighting resist (as I showed a few pages back, she takes physical hits better than Zap).
 
RaikouLover said:
I don't think she would fit well on Obi's particular stall team. It's really too well built because everything does such a specific job so well. My candidate would be Celebi since it gets much the same resists, but the Perish Song is invaluable. However, it is perfectly viable to put her on a stall team in tandem with Blissey. She does Zapdos' job pretty well as the sturdy fighting resist (as I showed a few pages back, she takes physical hits better than Zap).
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Yeah, it looks like I'll have to recreate my own. I'll post it as a rmt when I'm done with it.
 
I reckon Wish Latias will be very useful; another useful Wisher will be nice.

I was thinking about Specs Latios vs Specs Salamence, and this is what I came up with.

Salamence
-Has Intimidate, helpful in reducing Physical threats and makes Salamence bulkier on the Defence side of things, considering his higher HP and equal Defence anyway.
-Only has three weaknesses. Three is a pretty average number but five is quite a large amount. Salamence is therefore easier to pair with other Pokemon who cover all his weaknesses.
-Has a Fire move! Latios has nothing but HP Fire for a Fire type move, which is problematic since Steels are so widely used now. Dragon/Water is only a little more resisted than Dragon/Fire of course, but Fire moves do more damage to the metagame as a whole.

Latios
-Better in the sense that it is faster, and has more Special Attack (359) than Salamence even with a neutral nature. Salamence has to max his SpA with Modest to get to 350. This means that a Timid nature could be used on Latios and it would still be more powerful than Mence, whilst having great Speed. However, it may not need the +Speed nature; it still gets ahead of many Pokemon otherwise and Modest provides larger SpA.
-More resistances. Latios' typing is both a curse and a blessing; it is weak to many common types including Ice, Dragon and Dark (Pursuit), but it resists Grass, Psychic, Electric, Water and Fire which are all popular types, not to mention an immunity to Ground thanks to Levitate. Higher SpD means that it can take more of those Special Fire onslaughts than Mence. Plus, he's neutral to Stealth Rock rather than weak to it.
-Latios has a useable second STAB. Salamence's second STAB is Flying which, barring Hidden Power, meant that Salamence didn't have any Special Flying moves. He got Air Slash in Platinum, but it doesn't add great coverage anyway being that Fire already covers Grass and Bug. Psychic isn't a fantastic STAB having only two type advantages, but Psychic type moves tend to be powerful with useful side effects.
-Finally, Latios gets greater Special coverage than Mence, what with the aforementioned Psychic STAB as well as added moves like Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball and Energy Ball. It's still a shame he doesn't get a Fire move, but he gets Surf. This means Latios' set can be taylored more than Salamence's depending on the team's needs.

I reckon that Draco Meteor/Surf will be a standard, but the other moveslots will be pretty open. Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Ice Beam and Psychic all have good advantages, plus there's always Dragon Pulse. A real thorn in Latios' side might be that Pursuit weakness, though.
 
diamondfan1910 said:
I reckon Wish Latias will be very useful; another useful Wisher will be nice.

I was thinking about Specs Latios vs Specs Salamence, and this is what I came up with.

Salamence
-Has Intimidate, helpful in reducing Physical threats and makes Salamence bulkier on the Defence side of things, considering his higher HP and equal Defence anyway.
-Only has three weaknesses. Three is a pretty average number but five is quite a large amount. Salamence is therefore easier to pair with other Pokemon who cover all his weaknesses.
-Has a Fire move! Latios has nothing but HP Fire for a Fire type move, which is problematic since Steels are so widely used now. Dragon/Water is only a little more resisted than Dragon/Fire of course, but Fire moves do more damage to the metagame as a whole.

Latios
-Better in the sense that it is faster, and has more Special Attack (359) than Salamence even with a neutral nature. Salamence has to max his SpA with Modest to get to 350. This means that a Timid nature could be used on Latios and it would still be more powerful than Mence, whilst having great Speed. However, it may not need the +Speed nature; it still gets ahead of many Pokemon otherwise and Modest provides larger SpA.
-More resistances. Latios' typing is both a curse and a blessing; it is weak to many common types including Ice, Dragon and Dark (Pursuit), but it resists Grass, Psychic, Electric, Water and Fire which are all popular types, not to mention an immunity to Ground thanks to Levitate. Higher SpD means that it can take more of those Special Fire onslaughts than Mence. Plus, he's neutral to Stealth Rock rather than weak to it.
-Latios has a useable second STAB. Salamence's second STAB is Flying which, barring Hidden Power, meant that Salamence didn't have any Special Flying moves. He got Air Slash in Platinum, but it doesn't add great coverage anyway being that Fire already covers Grass and Bug. Psychic isn't a fantastic STAB having only two type advantages, but Psychic type moves tend to be powerful with useful side effects.
-Finally, Latios gets greater Special coverage than Mence, what with the aforementioned Psychic STAB as well as added moves like Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball and Energy Ball. It's still a shame he doesn't get a Fire move, but he gets Surf. This means Latios' set can be taylored more than Salamence's depending on the team's needs.

I reckon that Draco Meteor/Surf will be a standard, but the other moveslots will be pretty open. Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Ice Beam and Psychic all have good advantages, plus there's always Dragon Pulse. A real thorn in Latios' side might be that Pursuit weakness, though.
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If Salamence doesn't need a second STAB move, then what's the point of even mentioning it? Psychic isn't worth mentioning at all by the way.
 
Has anybody mentioned Latios and Latias's signature moves yet?

I thought I ought to open up the question of whether there is any point in using them.

Luster Purge and Mist Ball, respectively, are pretty much the same move. They are both Special, Base 70 power STAB Psychic attacks.

Their only difference is their effect, which corresponds to their abilities.

Luster Purge (Latios) is like a watered-down Shaymin Seed Flare. It has a higher chance to lower Sp. Def (unless it has Serene Grace) and comes off of Latios's higher Sp. Atk, however it has a much lower base power and will only lower it one stage.
This may not sound much, but it would act like a boost to Latios that could, in theory, enable it to bypass its switch-in with a more powerful attack.

Mist Ball (Latias) is a slightly less desirable option. While a 50% chance to lower Sp. Atk may seem appealing for a Special Wall, the effects are removed by switching which is wanted much less than Latios, who would like a free hit very much indeed.

Although these may seem novelty options, they could also be game-changing in OU, especially if they occur at a crucial moment, and are more than worthy, in my opinion, of consideration for STAB moves.
 
Intro1827 said:
Psychic has what? A 10% chance of that? Luster Purge has 50
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Yes, but Psychic is 20 BP more powerful, and also has twice the PP, which makes it much more reliable option. You can't rely on Luser Purge getting the Sp. Def drop every time you use it, and the lower PP hurts, so there's really no reason to use it over Psychic, unless you really like to gamble.
 
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