LC Tiering Megathread

[Aerrow]

With the advent of BW2, the Little Cup staff and I have decided to give LC's tiering process a revamp to better match its player base, metagame, and leadership. The purpose of this thread is to outline said revamp and the various effects it will be having on both the current members of the tiering process and the general LC community.

The Little Cup Council

The LC council, being the center of all tiering changes made to the LC metagame, will be going through the most changes in this revamp. After some discussion between the LC leaders, I've decided that it would be best if we first re-evaluated each of the members on the council and made sure that its various components were up to par before continuing on to other changes -- after evaluating each of the members and some discussion with Ray Jay and Vader, we've decided to remove both macle and little gk from the council (blarajan and prem will be replacing them).

Additionally, Vader and I will also be leaving the council to assume more objective roles in the tiering process (it's also important to note that with Vader and I leaving the council, I've installed Ray Jay as head of the LC council). This of course will leave two seats on the council vacant - instead of simply permanently placing two users onto the council, I've decided to use these seats as rotating council seats which means that the players who fill those two vacancies will change after a set amount of time (Ray Jay is going to give you an in-depth explanation of this change in his post below).

LC Council

1. Elevator Music (Leader)
2. macle
3. blarajan
4. iss
5. prem
6. Charmander
7. Hawkstar

Council Members

I've honestly wanted something like this for a long time but was unsure where to put it; with this new megathread being put into effect, I thought it would be prudent to include this as well. This section applies more to members of the community who want to apply for the council, but it can still be used to give current council members a guideline as to what they're expected to do as council members. Below is a list of things all current and aspiring council members should know about as everything on said list entails the position of a councilor:

• Individual and group (with other council members) playtesting of suspects
• Discussion of suspects on IRC
• Discussion of suspects on the forums
• Suspect nomination and voting
• Being a good presence in #littlecup and #pokemon
• Acting as a leader of LC

The Tiering Process and This Thread

With everything concerning the council out of the way, I'm going to address how the actual tiering process will be working from now on out -- unlike the previous process where suspects would be nominated after a set period of time, from now on, the council will constantly be discussing the metagame in both #littlecup and #council and will only nominate a suspect when they think it's actually needed. This means that there won't be any "forced" suspect tests which will result in a much better metagame and fewer unnecessary tiering decisions. However, when a suspect is nominated, instead of using this thread to discuss it, Ray Jay will be making a separate thread for the Pokemon where the members of the council can post their opinions on said suspect while also allowing the general LC community to chip in and post their views on the matter. After a specific amount of time (depending on the suspect and the level of discussion it gets), a vote will be held, concluding the 'suspect round'.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions regarding the new tiering process.

On a slightly unrelated note, it's recommended that all LC players start to migrate to Pokemon Showdown!; although PS! is still being worked on, you guys should really begin to start getting used to it as the entirety of Smogon will be moving there shortly leaving our current simulator, Pokemon Online, behind.

 

[Ray Jay]

In order to maintain a 7 man council that reflects the best players, we are starting off this suspect testing period with 2 rotating council seats. Every month, these 2 spots will be up for grabs, and it will always be done by an application basis. The same person can indeed be in a rotating spot more than once. In the case of a resignation by one of the current permanent 5 council members, we will likely give the slot to someone who has occupied one of these rotating slots before so we can have a seamless transition.

Suspect testing periods will move to a strict monthly basis, with votes occurring one week after usage stats are release and new suspects being nominated very soon after the previous vote is finished. New suspects will be chosen by the council members. This will allow adequate time for each suspect to be both discussed and statistically evaluated. As you can tell, this will require more participation on the part of both council members and wannabe council members on the battle server to produce accurate usage stats and on the forums to give us thoughtful discussion to pull from.

The rotating council members will be chosen on an application basis. In order to apply, you must send me (Ray Jay) an application containing the following information:

• What you can bring to the council (metagame knowledge, leadership abilities, activity, etc.)
• When did you get involved with LC and why
• How you are helpful on the forums and irc
• Proof of ladder success
• What you think are your best and worst qualities as an LC player

Aerrow wishes to maintain his role as an overseer in LC, so he will be approving the applications after I choose the two most qualified.

One other note: Aerrow mentioned that we do not want "forced" suspect tests; if the council deems that there are no Pokemon / game aspects worth being nominated as suspects, we will not require a vote. In this case, the rotating council members will remain on the council until after a vote DOES take place.

As new suspects are nominated a little more than a week after usage stats are released, we will need the two rotating council spots decided by then. For this reason, your applications are due by July 7th. Future application due dates for the rotating spots will be announced in this thread.

Good luck to those interested in applying for the council!

 

[Ray Jay]

Round 1 Stuff

July 6, 2012

As a reminder, council applications for this round are due tomorrow!

July 16, 2012

After looking through our council applications, this round's rotating spots go to comatthew6 and MarceloDK.

Over the next week, we will be discussing potential suspects and reporting back here. Council members are encouraged to be active in #council in order for discussion to take place throughout the week. Hopefully, a consensus on who the suspects will be will be reached within the week.

September 5, 2012

Now that we have a very good, working simulator, the council has decided on this month's suspects: Drilbur and Murkrow. Respective discussion threads are up, and a little over a month will be given for discussion, playtesting, and posting of logs. The current council is in the OP, and those that are inactive will likely be asked to resign before the voting period begins. Also keep in mind that suspects are chosen based on what we want to take a closer look at. We are not saying that either of these Pokemon are broken.

The council discussed and voted last night, and the discussion that led to the consensus can be viewed by all here.

Murkrow - Do Not Ban (7-0)
Drilbur - Do Not Ban (5-2)

Both Murkrow and Drilbur will remain in the metagame.

 

[Aerrow]

With that finally out of the way, I want to make an announcement concerning LC suspect testing: the little cup moderation team and I have unanimously agreed that the LC metagame is in a relatively balanced state (as is evident by the results of the vote) which means that there isn't any need to continue suspect testing for the foreseeable future - this means that there won't be any votes happening for little cup for a while. We have also decided, however, not to decommission the LC council even in this period of no suspect testing just in case it's abruptly needed for something (not to mention they'll still be needed for the council discussions taking place)! I don't want you guys to think that this is going to cause a decrease in activity; on the contrary, we're now going to start up several new projects (like the LC hub) which will make sure that all you LC lovers have something to channel your enthusiasm and love for the tier into!

Edit: Charmander and Hawkstar will be replacing comatthew6 and MarceloDK as the rotating council members. Note that this is a temporary change as the final 2 council seats will be determined again (in the same way they were originally determined) once a new suspect round begins.

 

[Elevator Music]

I've decided to open this thread and have it be a metagame discussion thread. If you have any thoughts on the current metagame that you'd like to share, here's the place to put it. This thread will still have updates about council related news, should we ever have any news to post.

It's been a couple of months since our last vote, so how do you guys think the metagame has shaped up since then?

 

[Celestavian]

I've been playing with a team with Snover on it for the past few months, and have regarded sand teams thus far as easy wins. However, when I switch to a team without Snover on it, I notice that sand teams become an entirely different beast that require specialized, high-opportunity cost checks to be able to be checked (Scarf Trace Porygon, for instance. No one would use Scarf Porygon ever if it weren't for sand). In my opinion, Snover is the only thing keeping the metagame from being sand dominated, and other checks such as the aforementioned Porygon and Bronzor are nowhere near as efficient. If you can't fit Snover on your team, then no matter how well built your team is, you are going to have a sand problem.

Drilbur and Sandshrew are not the problem, though. Rather, I think we should suspect Sand Rush instead. I know there is a stigma against banning "parts of Pokemon," but I still feel like this is the best course of action. Both Pokemon have their uses outside of Sand Rush, such as Rapid Spin, being a reliable SR setter, Mold Breaker for Drilbur, etc. and none of them are close to broken. Sand Rush, however, pushes Drilbur over the edge and makes Sandshrew a lot more terrifying. I know we've suspected Drilbur before, but I believe that was before double rush teams came to be and I feel that makes all the difference. Having access to not one, but two ultra-fast high-Attack Pokemon with perfect coverage in two moves, Swords Dance, and a 100 BP STAB move will put you at a huge advantage most of the time.

What I hope to gain through banning Sand Rush is a far more diverse metagame than the one we have now. Many people I've talked to in IRC agree that this metagame is "meh" and that something should be done, and I believe that this is it. When going through a mental list of Pokemon to use during teambuilding, I usually cross off half of them because they can't stand up to Sand teams. For example, Grimer seems like it was made to counter Mienfoo, one of the hardest Pokemon in the metagame to switch into, with Sticky Hold, a Fighting resist and U-turn resist, and excellent defenses with Eviolite. The fact that Drilbur and crew walk all over it means it doesn't get used as much as it should be. I want Sand Rush banned because there are so many Pokemon that just aren't good with it around, leading to a centralized and boring metagame.

 

[Delver]

I agree with hawkstar that DubRush is annoying without checks; but i don't think we should rush (right woodchuck?) to banning it. I personally think we should take some time as a community to just look into other ways to deal with it. Like, fuck iunno. Prankster Sunny day/ raindance from cottonee/ Murkrow. I think a big thing about anti-weather that people don't really think of is that it's *anti* weather - your team doesn't *NEED* to benefit form it because it's benefitting enough from *sand* not being up. In otherwords you don't need a damp rock to make using raindance an effective move - you don't even need to use a swift swimmer. Obviously the more your team benefits the better, bt just being able to remoe the weather is benefit enough. I'd like to see more "anti sand" pop up, things like Priority weather shifts, or iunno... lickitounge? things like that before I'm totally behind a Sandrush banning.

and hey, If I'm full of shit and we already did this during my hiatus, then I'm full of shit! I just kinda wanted to say that we (or at least I) havent really looked past the "already viable" mons like Snover and porygon for our answers to Sandrush.

 

[Rowan]

To be honest, I don't find anything broken in this metagame. Sand teams can be dealt with, especially if you have Snover which can basically walk all over them. However, that basically is forcing me to use Sand, Snover or a team with at least 2 other sand checks (CS Pory, Lileep, lolBronzor etc...). Basically that centralizes the metagame quite a lot.

Forgetting the whole sand discussion, I feel that this metagame isn't very diverse anyway. Whenever I build a team with a slightly underrated mon, that's not necessarily bad (such as Dratini, Lickitung, Pawniard etc...), my main thoughts are always, "Yeah that's great, but I would create a better team much more easily just by sticking Murkrow, Misdreavus and Mienfoo on a team with a couple of fillers (normally a sand check and a Murkrow check)."

The point I'm trying to make is, whilst reasonably balanced, I find this metagame incredibly boring at the moment. I would happily ban Drilbur, Murkrow and Misdreavus just to make more things viable. Of course, I know that won't happen as I get the impression that the LC council's philosophy is only to ban things unless they are definitely broken and it could just have other consequences like ending up being over centralised towards Scraggy again. I just hate the fact that when team-building the amount of viable mons I would consider using isn't actually that large.

They're just my thoughts, sorry if they offend any of the leaders/council of LC or whatever, they're not meant to.

 

[Artemisa]

Really you don't need a Snover to beat sand (I don't use a snover), a well balanced team should be able to deal with sand without that much trouble. Sand teams also have a lot of weaknesses because most of the time you only have 3 slots left if you are running Hippo / Bur / Lileep, 2 slots left if you have Hippo / Bur / Lileep / Shrew , so really it's hard to build a well constructed sand team, but it's still possible. (Hippo / Natu / Ferroseed /Wynaut / Shrew / Burr)

Honestly, I don't find this metagame boring compared to other LC metagames and I really like that I see Tirtougas, Dratinis, Smashers, etc.

 

[Oiawesome]

The meta is fairly balanced excluding the sand centrelization, but I think we need to try out one thing: Sneasel.And here is my reasoning: 1) This guy never even got a chance in LC , because people think it would be a mini scyther. Well here goes nothing:

Sneasel:
Sneasel may have high attack,the would-be highest speed in LC and Swords Dance but its frail as hell and has crippling 4x weakness to fighting in a fighting infested meta. Sneasel is like Murkrow in a sence exept way worse and also it could help keep double rush in check.

 

[Delver]

Ok this is a huge wall of text I know. I didnt include a TL;DR because I personally think its important to read all of it.

I think you have to agree with Corkscrew that the meta is stagnant, regardless of whether or not you find it boring. I think that'll occur no matter what we do just on the grounds of the LC tier itself. Unlike the other tiers LC isn't broken up into OU / UU /NU etc So while it seems like we have such a large tier to choose from, we really dont. I didnt do any math here, but I’m willing to bet that we have the same % of 'LC OU' viable mons in LC as regular OU mons in regular OU. I mean; just look at OU it's also a fairly stagnant meta, with the only 'new' things being 'new' ways to beat the current meta - which gets into the whole definition of what a "metagame" is. LC differntiates itself from OU in that the plethora of 'LC UU and under' mons are just...terrible. Honestly. The only way for a lot of the current mons to *be* viable would be to ban all the mons that do what they do better (which - are you ready for this mind blow?) would end up creating "LC OU," "LC UU," "LC NU" etc etc. Unfortunately, we don't have the playerbase to do this, and even if we did it wouldnt actually affect the stagnancy of the "LC OU" (which is basically what we're playing now) itself but rather give you the option to enter a more "cutesy" metagame.
So the question becomes: “Is a stagnant metagame bad?” and if yes, “How do we make a metagame that isn’t stagnant?” This is by no means an easy question but I definitely think it’s one that we should address, given me and corkscrew aren’t the only 2 who find this meta stagnant (which I find hard to believe). To give a little background I will explain (at least my take) the theory of a metagame.

A “shifting” metagame is one in which people are constantly finding ways to change it. For example, lets say that pokemon ‘B’ is a fairly common mon in a metagame. Some one can say, “Oh well mon A counters mon B hard, and mon B is fairly common, so running mon A is a good idea” and as more and more people begin doing that mon A’s usage goes up and mon B’s usage goes down. Then people begin looking for a mon C that counters mon A and the cycle continues indefinitely. Some people find this to be more exciting, others don’t it’s a matter of preference, but the main idea is that that cycle never stops. Theres a constant stream of new mons/sets that counter popular mons/sets in that meta and it is constantly “shifting”
A “stagnant” metagame, which is what I think we have, is more like chess, in that there are a bunch of “proper” ways to do things, but creating new and Interesting moves and strategy really requires a firm grasp on the basics and even more advanced techniques of the game – in pokemon this would be basically everything from type advantage to prediction. It really requires people to fully understand all the aspects of the metagame before people can begin changing it. This isn’t necessarily “bad” it just makes it so its much harder to get into. Basically, any average joe can enter a shifting metagame look at a threat and say “X answers it” and bang the meta shifted. That doesn’t work (at least not as often) in a more stagnant metagame because yeah sure X answers the threat but loses to everything else so it’s a sub-par choice.

Personally, I enjoy the purely competitive nature of a stagnant metagame, but I also enjoy the feeling of having an actual impact on a shifting metagame. Also, let me just clarify, these are by no means a dictionary definition of “metagame archtypes” its just how I look at them, and mostly every competitive game I play falls into one of those two categories. If you disagree with me feel free to explain your point of view on how a metagame is defined, but I think these are accurate descriptions of the two ‘main’ kind of archtypes.

Allright we get it shut up you rambling fuck

Let me get to the point. Basically, I think we would benefit a lot more from this thread if we don’t just immidately jump to “Sand is broken, ban it and we’ll be ok” and start from the beginning. Do you, as an LC player think the LC metagame is “Stagnant”? Do you think that is a bad thing? Why do you think its stagnant or not? If we look at the metagame as a whole, rather than a specific part of it in a vacuum, I think we’ll have a much easier time tweaking it to the benefit of the teir.

(that’s really important. The conclusions we come to should be to the BENEFIT of the teir, not to you)

I apologize for the wall-o-text and the slight ramble that this post is. I hope I made coherent sense, because I think we can do a lot for this meta if we approach it correctly.

 

[Elevator Music]

Errr, I didn't intend for this to be discussion of things to [un]ban, so let me just clarify that this is for discussion of the current metagame. It's cool if you guys have opinions on whether or not things should be suspect, but it would be a lot better if discussion was (at the very least initially) limited to characteristics of the current metagame etc.

Even though I just said that:

The point I'm trying to make is, whilst reasonably balanced, I find this metagame incredibly boring at the moment. I would happily ban Drilbur, Murkrow and Misdreavus just to make more things viable. Of course, I know that won't happen as I get the impression that the LC council's philosophy is only to ban things unless they are definitely broken and it could just have other consequences like ending up being over centralised towards Scraggy again. I just hate the fact that when team-building the amount of viable mons I would consider using isn't actually that large.

They're just my thoughts, sorry if they offend any of the leaders/council of LC or whatever, they're not meant to.

I don't really disagree with your opinion that the metagame is balanced but boring! In any case, my personal philosophy for tiering is that I want a healthy, balanced metagame. I don't think we should be searching for some ideal metagame, or ban things necessarily because "it would make the metagame better." I guess that's somewhat ambiguous in the sense that I think we should ban things to improve the metagame, but only to the extent that it offers some subjective amount of competitiveness that is 'to be determined.' That's neither here nor there as far as this thread goes, but I wanted to clarify.


There will be a fine line to walk in this thread, so I'll be monitoring it to make sure that things don't go spiraling off in an unproductive direction. Delver's post above is a pretty decent start, and the last paragraph offers some great discussion points.

 

[blarajan]

I don't understand the people who think you need Snover to check Sand, and that by not running Snover, you will have problems with Sand. I disagree with that premise in its absolute entirety. I don't see how you can have problems with Sand in Little Cup if you build your team with it in mind.

It is impossible to say that Sand is not the premiere archetype of LC teams. However, I feel as if the complaints people have with Sand are complaints they'd have to use for any top tier threat. "it restricts teambuilding" is a requirement for a top threat. You can't assume that you'll do well if you don't carry checks for the top threats. Likewise, some Pokemon ARE going to be worse because top threats exist. That is not the fault of the top threat for existing--it's the nature of having "good" Pokemon or team types in a tier. If you are completely shat on by the top threat, and can do nothing to that threat in return, your usage WILL tank and your effectiveness will decrease. That's inevitable.

I do not believe that the amount that Sand does the above is indicative of it being broken at all. In fact, I find it incredibly tame as a top threat. I don't believe the existence of Dual Rush (which WAS the main argument during the Drilbur Suspect test, contrary to Hawkstar's belief) is as centralizing or as problematic as anyone seems to be saying. Using Dual Rush is a huge opportunity cost, as it requires a Sand team to use three mono-Ground type Pokemon on the same team, subjecting that team to the problem of having half of their Pokemon weak to Snover, Lileep, Chinchou, Staryu, Tirtouga, Frillish, etc. While the rest of the team can help alleviate those issues, the threats still exist and are still incredibly problematic, requiring very good playing from the Sand team to make up for.

The thing with Sand teams (Drilbur + Sandshrew in particular) is that, imo, people are looking for Pokemon that can switch into them at all times. And even still, we DO have Pokemon that can do so. Bronzor and Koffing can switch in 99% of the time, Lileep can most of the time, Snover can very frequently, Shroomish is pretty solid, etc. Likewise, we have other Pokemon that don't necessarily have to switch OUT, and can take a hit, and threaten the threat that's currently in. Misdreavus or Timburr or Frillish or Shroomish or whatever you have in at the time can threaten the moles to the point where they're essentially a non issue later in the game. Furthermore, we do have other soft checks in changing the weather (Sunny Day Ponyta is rather good this metagame, along with Rain teams).

The thing is there IS lot of room to innovate in Little Cup for an effective team to beat the metagame, to beat Sand, and what not. I just don't think people are employing the options available. For that reason, I would like to change discussion from "LET'S BAN SAND RUSH" and what not to:

What have people been using to help them beat metagame threats? We all know about Choice Scarf Porygon, or Lileep. Have you been able to use Bronzor effectively? Koffing? Shroomish? What else have you all discovered or been able to use that allows you to beat many of the common metagame threats?

(edit: also, Delver addressed the stagnancy of the metagame well. Since Little Cup does not get tier shifts, it will always get stagnant. We can't consistently unban or ban Pokemon to spice up the tier or to make it "more fun" since it will ALWAYS get stagnant after the initial "oh my god this is cool" phase. We need to try and keep it balanced and "good" as opposed to exciting and cool, since it will never stay that way forever.)

 

[Rowan]

Really you don't need a Snover to beat sand (I don't use a snover), a well balanced team should be able to deal with sand without that much trouble. Sand teams also have a lot of weaknesses because most of the time you only have 3 slots left if you are running Hippo / Bur / Lileep, 2 slots left if you have Hippo / Bur / Lileep / Shrew , so really it's hard to build a well constructed sand team, but it's still possible. (Hippo / Natu / Ferroseed /Wynaut / Shrew / Burr)

I agree, you don't need a Snover to beat sand. But it does make it a hell of a lot easier. It takes the pressure off immensely when playing as otherwise you have to play carefully. With Snover, it puts the pressure on the sand team.
Without Snover, I find I normally need 2 sand checks rather than one to beat double rush. This may be because I'm not a fantastic player so I have to over compensate with an extra check whilst team-building.

Anyway about Delver's post:

Let me get to the point. Basically, I think we would benefit a lot more from this thread if we don’t just immidately jump to “Sand is broken, ban it and we’ll be ok” and start from the beginning. Do you, as an LC player think the LC metagame is “Stagnant”? Do you think that is a bad thing? Why do you think its stagnant or not? If we look at the metagame as a whole, rather than a specific part of it in a vacuum, I think we’ll have a much easier time tweaking it to the benefit of the teir.

(that’s really important. The conclusions we come to should be to the BENEFIT of the teir, not to you)

I agree with the benefit of the tier thing, and I'd like to clarify that me saying I'd ban Murkrow, Misdreavus and Drilbur wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

As for the questions: I do definitely think the metagame is stagnant, and I'm sure most people would agree. In my opinion it is a bad thing, as I stated earlier I'm finding the metagame right now incredibly boring. However, on the other hand I think it shows we've found some sort of balance, which is what we on smogon always want in our metagames. Therefore from a smogon philosophy (which is probably the one we should be using), I think it's a good thing.

As for why it's stagnant, I touched upon this earlier. Whenever I team-build I always have the feeling that I would have a much easier time if I just went with a sand team or a team of Murkrow/Misdreavus/Mienfoo. We can see this if we look at the past 10 LC RMTs. 7/10 teams used at least 2 of those 3 pokemon. Out of the remaining 3, 1 was sand and one wasn't really competitively viable (trick room). The last one still used a Misdreavus. Basically these pokemon and few other good mons are almost too good not to use, meaning that many teams are really similar. Which is why I'm bored of LC atm.

 

[blarajan]

The thing is though, how exactly can you propose the metagame be "less boring"? In every metagame of every tier, there WILL be a set of top threats that you do have to prepare for. Say Misdreavus, Murkrow, Drilbur, and Mienfoo were banned. Then let's say...Tirtouga! becomes a top tier threat, along with the other Shell Smashers. Then you'll see Croagunk and Chinchou usage go up since you'll NEED them to check the Shell Smashers. Other Pokemon such as Lileep and whatever will go up too. Scraggy will go up since a ton of its biggest checks went out the window, and since Hippopotas usage will decrease. Then you'll need to run other things to deal with that...or ban Scraggy since it got too high.

See the dilemma? What everyone is suggesting to spice up the metagame is actually going to be indicative of EVERY metagame. The reason other tiers such as RU and NU stay interesting and fresh is the period of discovery that occurs after the three month usage cycle. Unfortunately, Little Cup doesn't have that--our tier is going to stay as it is, bar tutors, Dream World releases, and changes to the ban list. Accordingly, the tier will inevitably remain stagnant at one point, and will inevitably have top tier threats that put some strain on team building (as that's what a top tier threat does...). I just don't personally see how Little Cup (and Ubers in extension) can DO anything to spice up the metagame...it just requires the tier to be balanced IMO.

And currently, I think Little Cup is the most balanced tier out there. What have you guys been using? I once again want to use this thread to actually TALK ABOUT THE TIER, not about Little Cup tiering in general. So let's talk about current Little Cup:

What have people been using to help them beat metagame threats? We all know about Choice Scarf Porygon, or Lileep. Have you been able to use Bronzor effectively? Koffing? Shroomish? What else have you all discovered or been able to use that allows you to beat many of the common metagame threats?

 

[Artemisa]

As for why it's stagnant, I touched upon this earlier. Whenever I team-build I always have the feeling that I would have a much easier time if I just went with a sand team or a team of Murkrow/Misdreavus/Mienfoo. We can see this if we look at the past 10 LC RMTs. 7/10 teams used at least 2 of those 3 pokemon. Out of the remaining 3, 1 was sand and one wasn't really competitively viable (trick room). The last one still used a Misdreavus. Basically these pokemon and few other good mons are almost too good not to use, meaning that many teams are really similar. Which is why I'm bored of LC atm.

Of course people want to use Murk / Missy / Mienfoo since it is the easy way out. The creativity is in the player and whether s/he chooses to use it or not is up to them, but if they don't use those 3 pokes then they are helping diverse the meta a little bit. I'm not implying at all to stop using those pokemon at all, I'm just another reason why people use those 3 pokemon. It's still possible to make a team without any top 5 pokemon and make it really solid without any problems taking out threats in the metagame.

What I use to beat/check Sand is Taunt Mienfoo + Foongus + Ice Beam Porygon (Bulky set). Taunt is for preventing Spike Stacking and Stealth Rock (Ferroseed and Hippo) which can wear down any team (Also use it to prevent Dwebble from being Dwebble), Foongus even though it's neutral to ground still makes a great check because it can Spore, Stun, Giga Drain, and Clear Smog. Most sand teams have a hard time switching in something to Spore (most of the time it's either hippo and lileep) after that Mienfoo can pick them apart and Drilbur can't set up on Mienfoo without being HJK / Drain Punched in a 1 on 1, after that Drilbur is weakened and it's is revenged easily. Ice Beam is my Shadow Ball replacement and I've been liking it's benefits so far vs sand and weather-less teams.

 

[Delver]

Of course people want to use Murk / Missy / Mienfoo since it is the easy way out. The creativity is in the player and whether s/he chooses to use it or not is up to them, but if they don't use those 3 pokes then they are helping diverse the meta a little bit. I'm not implying at all to stop using those pokemon at all, I'm just another reason why people use those 3 pokemon. It's still possible to make a team without any top 5 pokemon and make it really solid without any problems taking out threats in the metagame.

What I use to beat/check Sand is Taunt Mienfoo + Foongus + Ice Beam Porygon (Bulky set). Taunt is for preventing Spike Stacking and Stealth Rock (Ferroseed and Hippo) which can wear down any team (Also use it to prevent Dwebble from being Dwebble), Foongus even though it's neutral to ground still makes a great check because it can Spore, Stun, Giga Drain, and Clear Smog. Most sand teams have a hard time switching in something to Spore (most of the time it's either hippo and lileep) after that Mienfoo can pick them apart and Drilbur can't set up on Mienfoo without being HJK / Drain Punched in a 1 on 1, after that Drilbur is weakened and it's is revenged easily. Ice Beam is my Shadow Ball replacement and I've been liking it's benefits so far vs sand and weather-less teams.

while i dont agree with the "easy way out part" you do make a good point that i was sort of getting at in my first post to this thread - teambuilding is really what the player ultimately decides they need to be competatively viable -and you're right you *don't need* the top 5 to make a solid competitively viable team. THe trick is to be able to answer common threats while maintaining a win condition of your own. The reason the top 5 *are* the top 5 (and I am using top 5 to refer to the best 5 mons in the game (mienfoo, missy, murkrow, drilbur, Scraggy) not the top 5 in usage (lol abra)) is because they do both. Missy checks (and practically walls non-knockoff) mienfoo while simultaneously acting as a powerful special sweeper. That other mienfoo counters can't. This all goes back to my "stagnant metagame" rant:

...because yeah sure X answers the threat but loses to everything else so it’s a sub-par choice

So instead of going off on another tangent (oh fuck i went on a tangent), I'm just gunna say that you have the right idea with like Ice beam on pory and taunt on mienfoo. I think, we should be doing things like that for our "more creative checks." At the end of the day, Sunkern will suck no matter what we do. Aipom will never be viable, no matter what we do. Growlithe will basically always be outclassed by ponyta, no matter what we do. Mienfoo will always be prized for its immense flexability etc etc etc. So instead of trying to make bad mons in a meta viable, we should be trying to capitalize on the flexability of our top teir mons. Who says Murkrow can't be a trapper to deal with missy? Who says he can't act as a sand check with priority rain and HP water (i mean i havent tested any of this, im being totally hypothetical)? Why should mienfoo be restricted to checking Scraggy if we can tweak him to beat his most common counters (again iunno if we can, im just being hypothetical)? I remember back when Gligar was legal and me (i think i was one of the pioneers? I like to think i am? I don't really remember. for sure. I know Emma was one though), emma, and maybe a few others began pironeering the use of Low sweep, HP Ice mienfoo. It hit gligar on the switch, and outsped for a 2hko with HP ice after. It acted as a lure for one of the *most broken mons in the tier.* I didnt use fuckin choice scarf snover to deal with it. I got creative. I mean, I dont want this thread to become the "new and interesting move sets thread" I'm pretty sure we have that, but as far as answering "how do we make it less stagnant" I think that's the way to go - at least without giving the teir a banhammer lobotomy (which I in no way advocate or want).

Uhh so yeah. TL;DR I think, while stagnancy in a metagame allows a competitive atmosphere to florish, we shouldn't allow it to stifle our creativity with the teir. I also think we should focus that creativity into mons that don't suck.

 

[Good_Luck!]

My life is letting me post here finally.

Uhh so yeah. TL;DR I think, while stagnancy in a metagame allows a competitive atmosphere to florish, we shouldn't allow it to stifle our creativity with the teir. I also think we should focus that creativity into mons that don't suck.

This is so true.

The fact that we have three top tier pokemons doesn't mean they HAVE to be in a team. Personally, I can't play with Murkrow even if it were the only pokemon in the tier; I just use another pokemon and toy around with sets.

Even if I have another team with such core I have three other teamslots to find creativity.

I think there's this crappy idea that only the 'mons everyone uses are good, but let's face it that means we don't adress the large number of playable 'mons on this tier; we have 200+ options and everyone is sticking with the same old ones. It's not matter of base stats but a matter of clever usage of the strong side of a 'mon.

The metagame is as stale and boring as we want it to be.

What have people been using to help them beat metagame threats? We all know about Choice Scarf Porygon, or Lileep. Have you been able to use Bronzor effectively? Koffing? Shroomish? What else have you all discovered or been able to use that allows you to beat many of the common metagame threats?

I was doing some research on Rufflet with Pluck/U-turn/Return/Superpower and I found it to be very effective against Mienfoo, Scraggy, Magnemite and a few others, it's not surprise factor but it can actually revenge kill +1 Spe Scraggy with Superpower.

Taunt+Icy Wind Missy is a great lead slowing down foes, preventing hazards and forcing switches. It's great because it means you won't be outsped by Dragon Dance Scraggy and Sand Rushers are hit SE and are more prone to revenge kill from a fast scarfer. Murkrow's big Speed is reduced and forced to switch out to take more hazard damage.

While I'm not using it anymore, Sturdy Nosepass with Max Defense is a great check to Mixkrow (lacking HP Grass, of course) as Heat Wave, Drill Peck and Brave Bird are resisted; it can break subs consistently with Power Gem's perfect accuracy and doesn't mind being slowed down by Thunder Wave.

Nasty Plot Weak Armor Vullaby is an AMAZING wall breaker, it's neutral to most Priority and the prevalence of Fake Out means a free Speed Boost. Dark Pulse/Air Slash/Heat Wave have perfect sinergy and with just one boost she outspeeds lots of threats. I have swept with her.

I really like going for unconventional sets :).

 

[Oiawesome]

The meta is preety damn stable I mean saying only stuff like krow and double rush are viable is stupid,Thats like saying Herracross and Chandalure are the only viable pokes in UU , it is simply NOT true.I think meybe we need to look at already banned things that really didnt even get a chance like sneasel and yanma and retest them because I feel they would be exelant additions and wouldent break the meta, I hate to rehash what Good Luck and Blara said but This tier has like 150 viable pokes .get.smart.and.creative.

 

[Rowan]

Sorry, I wasn't saying that there are no competitively viable mons except the top 5 or so. I was merely suggesting that it's easier to stick them on a team.
I also wasn't saying we should ban anything just purely to spice the metagame up, I was just trying to explain why I personally was bored of LC. As I said, from Smogon's philosophy, we have a balanced metagame, which is what we should be trying to achieve so from that standpoint it's a great metagame.
Won't say any more on the matter, as it's not really the right place. Will contribute to the thread properly at another point.

 

[blarajan]

Has anybody been surprised by the effectiveness of some of the Pokemon for this meta like I have? I've been shocked by how well Pawniard and Frillish (thanks, PotW!) have been performing. Furthermore, Ponyta has been doing really really well as a pivot into Mienfoo, and a check to Sand since it can smash Hippopotas with Sun boosted Flare Blitz, and outrun Drilbur with the Sand gone. Shelmet with Overcoat has been doing really well, and by god I love Weak Armor Vullaby! I haven't had many opportunities to set up Nasty Plot though =(

I'm finding a lot of things are doing much better than I expected them to...not just the top Pokemon! What about you guys?

 

[Artemisa]

Nasty Plot Vullaby is so fucking good, I love when Mienfoo's fake me out or Gunks do too, and the special bulk helps you tank hits and roost of damage.

 

[Oiawesome]

I gotta say Sunny Day Ponyta + Eviolite Pivot Growlith(with sunny day) have been a great core in this meta for me Blara is right, Sunny Day Ponyta is good as hell. I remember in BW1 When I was the only one using NP Vullaby lol , its better than it used to be and is very good in this meta. Also Bulky Trace Agillity Porygon is also good it can take a hit, Agillity and then wreck havoc too bad tri attack is illeagle with download :( so I have to use trace, Life Orb is a intresting slash as it hits hard with a Life Orb and out paces nearly evreythingwoth agillity but loses its abillity to set up on the rushers without the added bulk from eviolite.

 

[Rowan]

I didn't even know Vullaby had Weak Armour! I've used Overcoat Nasty Plot Vullaby and that was kind of decent. Overcoat is just a really great ability this meta, with hail and sand being everywhere, the residual damage does rack up after a while. Weak Armour sounds better though as faster stuff is very annoying.

Also, has anyone used Cottonee? A set of Substitute, Cotton Guard, Stun Spore and Giga Drain is pretty decent as it can paralyze drilbur+sandshrew with priority stun spore. Priority Cotton Guard is great; getting +3 defense in one turn is such a good ability to have. It can do well against things like Tirtouga and Drilbur. The only issue is, like lots of mons, no recovery. Giga Drain is the best it can do. It doesn't even get synthesis. :/ So it can be worn down easily throughout a match, but it is very annoying to face earlier on.

 

[Delver]

I (showing off my battling prowess here) once lost 5-1 agaisnt a cottonee cause i was just totally unprepared for it. Unfortunately, I suck, so i don't think it really qualifies it to be "THE BEST THING EVER." I do, however, think it's an underated, viable mon. Prankster lets it's ev spread be more defensive. A 36HP/ 196Def+ / 196SpD puts you at a respectable 21 / 16/14 defenses *before* eviolite, raising to 21/24/21 - wall worthy. Cotton Gaurd or Gigadrain could also be replaced with leech seed which lets Subseed work fairly well.