Leafeon

Personally, I would give the BP Crown to Leafeon over Sawsbuck, as the main reason I never used Baton Pass Sawsbuck was because it was frail and would be in a situation where it would die to priority before I got the chance to BP.
 
leavanny has some notable advantages such as a resistance to mach punch, but leafeon outclasses it with its superior stats. Face it, a Bug STAB isn't going to help in terms of coverage when Grass STAB is stronger and has similar coverage. Leafeon's special attack may be lower, but leavanny doesn't get work up, and so you'll often find hidden power fire to be underwhelming even with the sun boost. Leafeon also has a higher speed stat allowing it to invest more in its attacking stats and even its defense stats.
 
MetaGross66 said:
leavanny has some notable advantages such as a resistance to mach punch, but leafeon outclasses it with its superior stats. Face it, a Bug STAB isn't going to help in terms of coverage when Grass STAB is stronger and has similar coverage. Leafeon's special attack may be lower, but leavanny doesn't get work up, and so you'll often find hidden power fire to be underwhelming even with the sun boost. Leafeon also has a higher speed stat allowing it to invest more in its attacking stats and even its defense stats.
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Actually, doesn't Naughty Leavanny 2HKO Skarm on the switch-in with HP Fire? You have to take into account their similarities... Personally, I think Leafeon is the premier wish-passer for Sunny Day teams now.
 
^No, that's Jirachi, Vaporeon, and Chansey. Leafeon should be keeping his wishes to himself if anything.
 
I've been playing with sun teams and playing with leafeon's leaf guard ability. It's quite fun seeing you could come in on a expected toxic/t.wave and set up and sweep and when things get hectic baton pass out.

Leafeon @ life Orb/leftovers
Ability: leaf guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Speed / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Sword Dance
- Baton Pass
- Leaf Blade
- x-scissor/return

or if you preferred a little bulk at the cost of somewhat less damage but in return to heal.

Leafeon @ leftovers
Ability: leaf guard
EVs: 176 Atk / 252 Speed / 82 Def
Jolly Nature
- Sword Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Baton Pass/Wish
- x-scissor/synthesis/return

Like I said I been playing around with leafeon on sun teams so synthesis is extremely useful just that you'd have to ditch on a special attacker with fire/ice moves.

-edit-

just ran couple of calcs and realized a physical attacker like gliscor using acrobatics still does crapload but you'd move first anyways so baton pass a +2 is helpful I suppose.
 
Cipher Admin Lovrina said:
IN SUN! Gawd, can't you read the post? Of course, Chansey's a good wish-passer, but Vaporeon's Scald is severely hampered and Jirachi doen't like having one of his only weaknesses doubled.
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I read the post quite well. So I guess it's okay to leave Jirachi in on Heatran's fire blast when sunlight is down? You'll be switching fire weak pokemon out of fire attacks regardless of whatever weather is up. Even ferrothorn doesn't sit there in front of heatran's face when its raining. Water type pokemon are common on balanced sun teams. They just don't bother using water attacks.

In sunlight, those three are all better wish passers for more reasons outside of higher hp. Leafeon is passing wishes of a mere 167 hp to his allies. That's not even half of Ninetales' health. No team is going to want that at all, sun or no sun. I may as well be using wish passer jolteon...who would still be better on sun teams because he can still pass fast wishes while sunlight is down and enemy weather is up.
 
I agree with Alpha on this one. Leafeon still faces huge competition for a place on a Sun team, even with Egg moves. Offensively Sawsbuck utterly outclasses it, as a SD Baton Passer Sawsbuck still competes and things like Gliscor do as well due to not compounding sun's weaknesses for little gain, as a Wishpasser those things Alpha mentioned compete (as well as Xatu, who has crappy wishes but an awesome ability).

Personally I still don't see much hope for Leafeon, I may try him out as a Sub+SD or Sub+Wishpasser with possible Yawn abuse, but even then I'm not too hopeful for it in most cases, since it's better to either use something more offensive as your Chlorophyller, or if Leafeon is your second not compound your weaknesses by using something else.
 
If only Leafeon got Growth, then, under the sun Leafeon may be able to HP Ground those steels and fire types. Because after 2+ So Atk boosts it maybe powerful enough to do some special damage to its walls.
 
alphatron said:
I read the post quite well. So I guess it's okay to leave Jirachi in on Heatran's fire blast when sunlight is down? You'll be switching fire weak pokemon out of fire attacks regardless of whatever weather is up. Even ferrothorn doesn't sit there in front of heatran's face when its raining. Water type pokemon are common on balanced sun teams. They just don't bother using water attacks.

In sunlight, those three are all better wish passers for more reasons outside of higher hp. Leafeon is passing wishes of a mere 167 hp to his allies. That's not even half of Ninetales' health. No team is going to want that at all, sun or no sun. I may as well be using wish passer jolteon...who would still be better on sun teams because he can still pass fast wishes while sunlight is down and enemy weather is up.
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Leafeon is the fastest wish-passer now... (was it before) and it makes a really great physical wall!
 
Benlisted said:
I agree with Alpha on this one. Leafeon still faces huge competition for a place on a Sun team, even with Egg moves. Offensively Sawsbuck utterly outclasses it, as a SD Baton Passer Sawsbuck still competes and things like Gliscor do as well due to not compounding sun's weaknesses for little gain, as a Wishpasser those things Alpha mentioned compete (as well as Xatu, who has crappy wishes but an awesome ability).

Personally I still don't see much hope for Leafeon, I may try him out as a Sub+SD or Sub+Wishpasser with possible Yawn abuse, but even then I'm not too hopeful for it in most cases, since it's better to either use something more offensive as your Chlorophyller, or if Leafeon is your second not compound your weaknesses by using something else.
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That may be true, but I like to see that Grass/Normal typing as a nuisance more to prove more trouble than its worth. That combo does not offer any compliments, and the array of Vaccum Wave/Mach Punch users out there even in UU does not exactly make Sawsbuck sitting the hits.

Leafeon, on the other hand, has respectable physical bulk, and can take weaker physical hits like a champ. I guess it all boils down to "do you want ANOTHER Fighting weak on your lineup?" or not.

I agree with Wish though, Wish on Leafeon is gimmicky at best, but does provide good cover. If I were to go on the Wish route however, I would make Leafeon a very dedicated Baton Passer, with 252 HP/Whatever Spd EVs to make it outspeed Scarf revenge killers.

What do you think?
 
c l e a r said:
That may be true, but I like to see that Grass/Normal typing as a nuisance more to prove more trouble than its worth. That combo does not offer any compliments, and the array of Vaccum Wave/Mach Punch users out there even in UU does not exactly make Sawsbuck sitting the hits.

Leafeon, on the other hand, has respectable physical bulk, and can take weaker physical hits like a champ. I guess it all boils down to "do you want ANOTHER Fighting weak on your lineup?" or not.

I agree with Wish though, Wish on Leafeon is gimmicky at best, but does provide good cover. If I were to go on the Wish route however, I would make Leafeon a very dedicated Baton Passer, with 252 HP/Whatever Spd EVs to make it outspeed Scarf revenge killers.

What do you think?
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It's not the defensive side of Grass/Normal that offers benefits, it's offensively. Normal is a fantastic neutral STAB to have access to, and STAB Return is what makes Sawsbuck so deadly (that and acces to Jump Kick and Nature Power) as opposed to Leafeon's absolute lack of useful coverage - so overall it boils down to "do I want to be able to sweep at all" when choosing between them. As a BPer yeah leafeon's bulk is useful, but it comes down to whether you'd like your BPer to be able to hurt things not weak to Grass in a pinch or be bulkier, so Leafeon may clinch it there - but again a Gliscor passing may well bring more to a sun team.

For self healing purposes Wish is entirely inferior to Synthesis actually, which I forgot she learned, so there's no point using it unless you intend to pass it. HP is ofc best, but more bulk may be helpful since it's already so damn fast without much investment.
 
Fully defensive leafeon is pretty bad...but Leafeon can perform well as a speedy SD tank. Sawsbuck outclasses him offensively (it's a sad day when a grass type pokemon has less coverage than a grass type pokemon), but leafeon can find way more setup oppurtunities and does not die as easily.

His coverage is so awful that you should never be trying to sweep. Leafeon should be doing some damage before he is eventually forced out and you wind up baton passing the boosts to someone else, since you'll be switching anyway. Or if you enjoy the pokemon being a one hit wonder, you can run Natural Gift and Watmel berry (which I did for a while due to my immense hatred of Armory in the Sky walling me).

I've always treated chlorophyll leafeon as a mix between offensive chloro tangrowth and sawsbuck. Enough defense to setup without fear of death from freaking everything, but fast enough to not get outsped by every choice scarf pokemon and their mother. Not exactly the best coverage, but he trades that for the oppurtunity to set up pretty easily.

And although it sucks, natural gift will take you farther than hp fire. Believe me on this.
 
I've actually had more trouble with Leafeon than Sawsbuck because Leafeon is a lot harder to KO physically. Though this may just be because I run Intimidate Hitmontop to counter Sawsbuck
 
alphatron said:
And although it sucks, natural gift will take you farther than hp fire. Believe me on this.
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I honestly have considered this, as it will (I think) make Leafeon survive any physical Fire STAB from UU, as well as using it to burn down Steel-types attempting to wall you after a Swords Dance. What about the sun? Occa Berry would null the effects of the Sun, would that allow Leafeon to survive? On the other hand, Natural Gift Fire under the sun is decent at best after a SDance.

Now that we have established that Wish is not worth using, I think what we need to do now is to establish the EVs, it is obvious that Leafeon does not need max Speed when the sun is up(depends on who you want to outspeed in UU).

The question is that if Leafeon would like the EVs focused into attack, or have a bit more HP to survive physical hits better.

Bottom line: If you are looking for a Sun Attacker, go with Sawsbuck. If you are looking for something to distract your opponent, good at setting up, and able to tank weaker hits, go with Leafeon.
 
Now that we have established that Wish is not worth using
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I wouldn't say that necessarily. The sad truth is Leafeon's movepool is very barren. Despite the significant nerf Wish received in this case, that chunk of HP could have some value, so I think it's worth considering if you're going to choose Leafeon over another Pokemon. Maybe not the best option, but you don't have too many to choose from anyway and they're all pretty meh.
 
My friend uses Natural Gift Electric to dispose of Gyarados (who isn't as prevalent now a days in my experience) but I've seen it work in person several times. It also provides coverage against some other flying types.

Still that was back in Gen4. Things have changed.
 
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