The play with Mega Meganium is to use Dragon Tail. You can shuffle out Skarmory causing it to take more Stealth Rock damage and some chip with Dragon Tail itself. It’s also good against other set-up Pokemon as it resets their stats and causes them to take more chip damage.
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Pet Mod Legends Z-A OU
- Thread starter dhelmise
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U probably take more damage from Rocky Helmet than u do from this, even assuming rocks stay up
Mega Meganium I think would be a lot better in a standard metagame like SV OU due to it hard walling most of the Pokemon its tasked with checking like Ogerpon-W, Dragapult, Great Tusk, Raging Bolt, etc (although no Pursuit for Gking will make pivoting into that mon a real pain in the ass to deal with). Here, too many of the Pokemon it wants to check can slot in random Poison coverage to Knock it out in one hit, which they will want to do anyways to handle Clefable. Stuff like Greninja, Hoopa-U, Krookidile, Garchomp in some cases, etc. I personally don't think the Skarm MU is entirely unworkable - you can pair it with Pokemon like Aegislash to punish that and Skarm doesn't have infinite longevity like Galarian Slowking or Torn-T do. Really its moreso that it just isn't built to handle the Dark-type attackers well in this format. Its Synthesis recovery getting cut by sand or Snow doesn't help either.
All that said, I don't think its a bad mega, just not well suited for this format, esp with Zygarde banned. It still is the best check to Zydog though.
All that said, I don't think its a bad mega, just not well suited for this format, esp with Zygarde banned. It still is the best check to Zydog though.
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I reached 1600 (top 20) on ladder with this team that loses to hazards, I don't have much to say that I haven't said yet except for the fact that I have Pursuit trapped and OHKOed way too many Greninjas clicking U-turn turn 1 which was quite hilarious. CB Ttar in general is amazing and much better than defensive sets. Talonflame is actually a great pivot and carried me. Gardevoir was great but I haven't clicked Healing Wish a single time. Scarf Moonblast carries though.
oh and M-Gallade is still broken
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Yeah, but what else are you going to do against Skarmory as a Meganium? The other options you can really do is Leech Seed or use Sun + Weather Ball where the only drought Pokemon are other Megas. You don't have many options especially now that you don't have HP Fire
You can Knock off the Helmet and pressure it over the game with Rocks Chip + perhaps leech seed. Ideally you need something to pressure it from using spikes like Talonflame or Starmie.
I mean yeah, that's what the idea was. You have no other option but Dtail, but that option makes you take as much damage in return and also only temporarily delays the problem, as itll eventually roost off the chip. I think Meganium could do better in a NatDex or like Champions format, as it goes a little stupid into Gen 9 threats like Ogerpon, Zama, or Tusk, but this limited dex hurts it, with a true counter being on 33% of teams.
Mega Evolution: Mega Froslass
New Ability: Technician
Ability Description (if it doesn't currently exist):
Reasoning: Initially I wanted to assign mega froslass a new custom ability which buffed the base power of wind moves, this was done before discovering that apparently moves like ominous wind and frost breath aren't classified as wind moves (at least according to bulbapedia) while blizzard IS, so to prevent a 165 base power blizzard, I propose using technician which would allow froslass to efficiently utilise moves like frost breath, ominous wind, draining kiss, and valuable coverage in water pulse and shock wave, besides all of frosslass dex entries focus on how it creates winds but never says anything regarding creating hail. Even from a strictly lore perspective and not accounting for gameplay, other mons like roserade do get technician which overall does share a similar vibe to Froslass, both being femminine designs based off of elements. Furthermore froslass is heavily based around yo-kais. Specifically the Yuki Onna and, upon mega evolution, an Oni as signified by the horns. Not only do both of these yo-kais hunt their prey in specific ways besides immediate brute strength (Onis can allegedly alter their form to trick individuals into trusting them and the Yuki Onna is depicted not directly killing its victims but only leading them to death, showing a certain level of “tactical planning”) but Onis are also skilled tacticians on their own, even in DnD diverting a bit from the origin of the creature by itself, Onis have high Intelligence and Charisma which only leads to assuming they are creatures capable of creating complex strategies. In conclusion I do believe that with this mega evolution of froslass gaining attributes from Onis it makes sense to lean into the more tactical side of this design. To go back to the initial argument I also just believe which mega froslass deserves a buff, as of now its abiliy only ensures blizzard to not miss and gives it a not all that good niche as an offensive screen setter, with technician froslass would actually get to use the wind moves which are cited not only in the base form's dex entries but also in the dex entry of the actual mega form "This Pokémon can use eerie cold air imbued with ghost energy to freeze even insubstantial things, such as flames or the wind." Besides the technician ability is mostly assigned to pokemons which excel at trapping prey like grapploct or at being "elegant" such as roserade, persian and hitmontop. I believe froslass encapsules these qualities nicely and as such is worthy of receiving technician as an ability.
Sources:
https://www.centreofexcellence.com/oni-in-japanese-mythology/#:~:text=Red and Blue Skin: Red,melancholy, or more passive strength.
https://www.themonstersknow.com/oni-tactics/#:~:text=December 2, 2016,And they can fly!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuki-onna
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Froslass_(Pokémon)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oni
New Ability: Technician
Ability Description (if it doesn't currently exist):
Reasoning: Initially I wanted to assign mega froslass a new custom ability which buffed the base power of wind moves, this was done before discovering that apparently moves like ominous wind and frost breath aren't classified as wind moves (at least according to bulbapedia) while blizzard IS, so to prevent a 165 base power blizzard, I propose using technician which would allow froslass to efficiently utilise moves like frost breath, ominous wind, draining kiss, and valuable coverage in water pulse and shock wave, besides all of frosslass dex entries focus on how it creates winds but never says anything regarding creating hail. Even from a strictly lore perspective and not accounting for gameplay, other mons like roserade do get technician which overall does share a similar vibe to Froslass, both being femminine designs based off of elements. Furthermore froslass is heavily based around yo-kais. Specifically the Yuki Onna and, upon mega evolution, an Oni as signified by the horns. Not only do both of these yo-kais hunt their prey in specific ways besides immediate brute strength (Onis can allegedly alter their form to trick individuals into trusting them and the Yuki Onna is depicted not directly killing its victims but only leading them to death, showing a certain level of “tactical planning”) but Onis are also skilled tacticians on their own, even in DnD diverting a bit from the origin of the creature by itself, Onis have high Intelligence and Charisma which only leads to assuming they are creatures capable of creating complex strategies. In conclusion I do believe that with this mega evolution of froslass gaining attributes from Onis it makes sense to lean into the more tactical side of this design. To go back to the initial argument I also just believe which mega froslass deserves a buff, as of now its abiliy only ensures blizzard to not miss and gives it a not all that good niche as an offensive screen setter, with technician froslass would actually get to use the wind moves which are cited not only in the base form's dex entries but also in the dex entry of the actual mega form "This Pokémon can use eerie cold air imbued with ghost energy to freeze even insubstantial things, such as flames or the wind." Besides the technician ability is mostly assigned to pokemons which excel at trapping prey like grapploct or at being "elegant" such as roserade, persian and hitmontop. I believe froslass encapsules these qualities nicely and as such is worthy of receiving technician as an ability.
Sources:
https://www.centreofexcellence.com/oni-in-japanese-mythology/#:~:text=Red and Blue Skin: Red,melancholy, or more passive strength.
https://www.themonstersknow.com/oni-tactics/#:~:text=December 2, 2016,And they can fly!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuki-onna
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Froslass_(Pokémon)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oni
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Since Audino and Gallade received new abilities, it would be cool if Mega-Gengar's ability was changed from Shadow Tag to something less broken, and then unbanning the Gengarite. It doesn't even have to be something like Magic Guard, Sheer Force, or Levitate. It could even keep Cursed Body. M-Gengar is a cool Pokemon, and adding a fast ghost-type sweeper with anti-fairy attributes and great coverage options would improve the metagame.
TL;DR: Please give Mega Gengar Cursed Body instead of Shadow Tag and unban it.
TL;DR: Please give Mega Gengar Cursed Body instead of Shadow Tag and unban it.
Maybe you can give it an ability that's basically pursuit where if you use a wind move and the opponent tries to switch it deals more damage? That's the best and most unique ability I can think of.
Here's actually how to fix M-Froslass:
Mega-Evolution: Mega Froslass
New Ability: Permafrost
Ability Description: As long as this Pokemon is on the field, the weather is Snowy
Specifics: It's Delta Stream/Primordial Sea/Desolate Land but for Snow. For example, if M-Froslass is sent on the field, it starts snowing. Tyranitar then switches in, but Sand Stream is cancelled by Permafrost, so it is still snowing. This lets Froslass keep a perfectly accurate Blizzard as well as the Defense boost from Snow which lets her switch out and tank Pursuit. It also guarantees Aurora Veil. When Froslass switches out, the Snow stops. We could make it so Tyranitar's Sand Stream kicks in then but it's not too important.
Reasoning: I think it is fair to say that M-Froslass will never have an impact on the tier as long as Tyranitar exists, or if it doesn't get an overly broken custom ability. My proposal keeps a vanilla Game Freak creation flavor to it while actually helping M-Froslass on her most glaring issue by helping tremendously into the Tyranitar matchup.
Mega-Evolution: Mega Froslass
New Ability: Permafrost
Ability Description: As long as this Pokemon is on the field, the weather is Snowy
Specifics: It's Delta Stream/Primordial Sea/Desolate Land but for Snow. For example, if M-Froslass is sent on the field, it starts snowing. Tyranitar then switches in, but Sand Stream is cancelled by Permafrost, so it is still snowing. This lets Froslass keep a perfectly accurate Blizzard as well as the Defense boost from Snow which lets her switch out and tank Pursuit. It also guarantees Aurora Veil. When Froslass switches out, the Snow stops. We could make it so Tyranitar's Sand Stream kicks in then but it's not too important.
Reasoning: I think it is fair to say that M-Froslass will never have an impact on the tier as long as Tyranitar exists, or if it doesn't get an overly broken custom ability. My proposal keeps a vanilla Game Freak creation flavor to it while actually helping M-Froslass on her most glaring issue by helping tremendously into the Tyranitar matchup.
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a mega with snow abuse would be nice c:
252+ Atk Tyranitar switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Froslass-Mega in Snow: 264-312 (93.9 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
I think this just explains my point, even in snow froslass cannot efficiently tank a pursuit from even base ttar so really even with permanent snow the problem remains, sure you could argue blizzard’s enough to power through however:
252 SpA Froslass-Mega Blizzard vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 190-225 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even with the set taken from NatDexOU tyranitar simply always wins the 1v1, the perma snow ability would be better than its current subpar snow warning sure but it barely helps with the Tyranitar matchup in the slightest, it is a hard counter to mega froslass in every way possible
Well you can still setup Aurora Veil or burn will Will-o-Wisp on the initial pursuit, or just Blizzard on Ttar switch-in. The point is not to completely bulldoze Tyranitar from full 1v1 every time without setup. But it still helps a LOT. Also your calc shows that +2 Blizzard would OHKO so you wouldn't even need to switch out if you Nasty Plot on the switch, no?
I suppose that is a possibility but I just think that if you want a snow warning mega with aurora veil you are just better off using abomasnow, at least IMO froslass is a much more glass cannon mega and its ability should be coherent with that, furthermore no dex entries or anything ever mentioned it can even create hail or snow, all of them are focused on wind which is why I wanted to buff its WIND moves, it's true snow warning maybe helps against ttar but that's pretty much the only valuable thing it does besides make blizzard never miss, technician would give froslass stronger stabs and coverage which just fits with the glass cannon design. Plus it elevates its stabs nicely allowing it to actually get the OHKO it tries to accomplish with that 140 spatk without relying on only its ice stab. I don't really see the extra bulk from snow really benefitting any particular matchup, especially because at least from my experience, the main threat to mega froslass are special attackers, greninja, mega delphox, hoopa unbound, the physical steel types (mostly scizor and excadrill) do pose a problem yes but both get outsped and 2HKOd by a technician boosted frost breath, only exception I can see is a fully attack invested scizor with pursuit the switch, which would OHKO without question, however even with 112+ attack EVs froslass can survive and later be supported by wish passers such as vaporeon to get back to full HP. Even looking at it from a strictly gameplay perspective I just cannot see any reason why perma snow would beat out technician except for the ttar matchup, bulky scizor goes from a 16% chance to 2HKO with shadow ball to a 99.6% chance using technician boosted ominous wind, the cherry on top if it lands the 10% for an omni boost. And again I just wanna say that froslass uses WIND in every dex entry buffing its wind moves just makes sense
252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory on a critical hit: 313-369 (93.7 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Ominous Wind vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 212-252 (53.8 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill on a critical hit: 331-391 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory on a critical hit: 313-369 (93.7 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Ominous Wind vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 212-252 (53.8 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill on a critical hit: 331-391 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Froslass' dex entries aren't focused on wind, and even when it is mentioned, it doesn't sound like the wind is an important part of the lore, nor does it relate to anything that could justify Technician. I did read your full explanation on Froslass's inspiration and yokai folklore but I still don't see the the link between that and Technician. In fact, since the dex entry it says that if can "freeze even insubstantial things, such as flames or the wind", I feel like having permanent Snow that beats other weathers sounds like it fits the dex entry better and doesn't go reaching super far either.
On the Abomasnow bit though, I understand it would mean that Froslass would probably completely outclass it, but id rather play with the new mega instead anyway, no offense to Abomasnow fans tho lol
Since some old megas got new abilities (like gallade and audino), i think it could be interesting to give mega gengar something a bit less absurd, as encore + stag is just perpetually going to be stupid no matter the format
Now it will probably have to remain Ubers unless it gets something stupid like Truant as this mon is absurd regardless of its ability but hey at least that'd be relevant in a theoretical Ubers tier, if folks wanna play that
edit: just realized this was something already mentioned in the thread oops, i didn't see that. I don't think it would be unbannable though
Now it will probably have to remain Ubers unless it gets something stupid like Truant as this mon is absurd regardless of its ability but hey at least that'd be relevant in a theoretical Ubers tier, if folks wanna play that
edit: just realized this was something already mentioned in the thread oops, i didn't see that. I don't think it would be unbannable though
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ok I needed to be more specific, I confused wind with the presence of the icy breath froslass has, which most dex entries directly focus on at least according to bulbapedia, I do agree technician to a degree is a stretch, I mostly explain it using the fact that the mon is based on predators with particular methods of haunting prey which is pretty used between mons which have technician such as roserade's aroma and grapploct. Plus the general elegance seems to be a possible justification for technician, like roserade, persian and hitmontop. Froslass is both definetly elegant and has a unique method of fetching prey that being encasing people into ice cubes. At least in my brain getting traits from onis which are definetly more skilled tacticians than yuki onnas does lead to a better planning ability of the pokemon itself, therefore, technician, I mostly wanted to boost frost breath's viability for like, obvious reasons however it's not a wind move for some inhumane reason and neither is ominous WIND (which on a tandem is incredibly stupid its got it in the name), I would like an ability which boosts the power of wind moves by 50% but idk if having blizzard be 165 base power is even remotely reasonable so since pretty much all wind moves are below 60 base power, technician fits the bill for the desired effect (boosts frost breath and ominous wind mostly), fits with the elements of the design added upon mega evolution (the oni traits), buffs the mon in a substantial way, makes it actually differ from other megas (yes scizor has technician too but I feel like the fact that one is a physical attacker and one is special with vastly different types makes them plenty different meanwhile froslass is just a strictly better abomasnow unless you REALLY want a bulkier mega but idk how much that will help you in this meta anyway. In my eyes technician fits all the boxes and the cherry on top is it gives us a niche no other pokemon has, that being a technician boosted always crit move. It's a niche no other mon fulfills besides smokomodo in the cap format with coverage in storm throw and to put it plain and simple, it's just fun. Like I know it feels stupid but a niche like that is simply fun to use and for once it actually fits with the rest of the design and the mon's identity. I think like 99% of ice types can probably have snow warning and make it kind of fit but this imo just outclasses that in the fun, viability and consistency value. I do see what you mean with the wind being cold and all but at that point, flash fire, heatproof and thick fat would all work because they reduce or outright delete the effect of fire type moves. Technician gives froslass a genuinely unique role which no other mon can do, while the concept of "weather setting mega" has been honestly ran into the ground with mega tyranitar, mega charizard Y, mega Pyroar, mega Abomasnow, mega Drampa and that's not even taking into account the plethra of megas with weather based abilities which don't outright set the weather like mega garchomp or mega houndoom. Not all megas need weather as a way to show their power, sometimes just a straight up good combat focused ability is enough to make a mon shine and I do believe with how unique the crit shenanigans mega froslass can pull technician is that good combat focused ability in this context
I think battle armor would make more sense thematically
The problem is that battle armor sucks on this mon. It'd be great to try and make the new megas viable to some degree.
That Froslass flavour ability paragraph feels 100% useless for our endeavours in this Pet Mod I won't lie, so I am going to actually make comparisons between Technician vs Snow Warning and how they play in the metagame and if this change is even worthwhile, much less necessary.
Mega Froslass without any abilities has some major issues - mainly that it has a poor matchup into metagame threats like Greninja (-Mega), Tyranitar, Mega Delphox and even Scarf Krookodile, it being easy to revenge kill due to it's poor physical bulk + weakness to Pursuit and to a lesser extent, it's somewhat disappointing damage output for being a dedicated Mega slot.
Now, alot of this can't be changed regardless of the manipulation of the ability slot, but the addition of Snow Warning does do alot for Mega Froslass, so I think we should weigh out the benefits before we look into Technician.
Snow Warning's immediate benefits are that it gives you a 1.5 multiplier to it's defense stat, and grants perfect accuracy to Blizzard, essentially giving a major bump to its main Ice STAB. Snow Warning also allows the option for Aurora Veil, which is a notable form of utility.
The defense boost has interesting applications, namely that you avoid being Pursuit trapped by Scarf Krook.
252 Atk Krookodile Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Froslass-Mega in Snow: 218-258 (77.5 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Froslass-Mega in Snow: 176-210 (62.6 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It also avoids the OHKO from Scizor's Bullet Punch as well, while isn't as immediately matchup flipping, still allows you to fire off a Will-O-Wisp or Shadow Ball for chip.
Aegislash also can't guarantee a 2HKO with Shadow Sneak even with Max Attack investment, meaning anything else is a bop.
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Froslass-Mega in Snow: 134-162 (47.6 - 57.6%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
These are all very useful matchups to swing for. So let's compare and contrast with Technician.
The major boon for Technician is boosting the power of its STAB moves to very high levels. Ominous Wind hits 90 BP, making it slightly more powerful and trades the SpD drop for a chance at raising all of its stats. But what rolls do we actually improve moving from SBall to Tech OWind?
The rolls are really small unboosted, but they start coming in at +2
Not a lot of targets for Shadow Ball vs Ominous Wind, but these are notable roll improvements. However, the real reason to ever want to run Technician over Snow Warning, are the Frost Breath calcs. Frost Breath is imo the main justification for why someone would argue Technician over Snow Warning, as Tech Frost Wind is an upgrade by several magnitudes. You bypass SpD Boosts, which are very notable, you don't lose accuracy once Snow is over, you in fact have perfect acc regardless of weather. And most importantly, you hit MUCH harder.
The calcs speak for themselves, Frost Breath is such a massive improvement over Blizzard it's not even funny. Blizzard's highest rolls are still on average 3% weaker than Frost Breath's weakest rolls, which are somewhat wider due to the nature of how critical hits and multipliers scale. The raw damage output alone is impressive but the importance of these calcs is to show that those boosts matter - Tyranitar is the #1 threat to a Froslass, and the common no bulk Choice Band sets that have been picking up steam on later get flat out OHKO'd by +2 Frost Breath after SR chip, which is pretty easy to ensure occurs, something Blizzard can't accomplish if it's under Sand, which 9/10 you will be in that particular matchup. You get a few more rolls to KO moms in your favour as well, but something noticable is that a lot of 2HKOes remain 2HKOes, and any 3HKOes barely make any head ground either. It's why I have been so selective with calcs, as most of metagame's Froslass matchup isn't changed on their defensive side. Froslass's main issues of being revenge killed many top foed are not addressed by these changes, and it needs to accept that as the case too. 100% Honourable mention is that Froslass gets Draining Kiss if you are into that, but +2 Frost Breath can OHKO a Tyranitar so I am not too committed to it being there.
Froslass Mega will most likely never be that good if Greninja is in the tier, and while I think that the flavor argument for Technician over Snow Warning is bad no matter how you dice it, I think there is real competitive merit to argue for one over the other, and that is interesting to me.
Mega Froslass without any abilities has some major issues - mainly that it has a poor matchup into metagame threats like Greninja (-Mega), Tyranitar, Mega Delphox and even Scarf Krookodile, it being easy to revenge kill due to it's poor physical bulk + weakness to Pursuit and to a lesser extent, it's somewhat disappointing damage output for being a dedicated Mega slot.
Now, alot of this can't be changed regardless of the manipulation of the ability slot, but the addition of Snow Warning does do alot for Mega Froslass, so I think we should weigh out the benefits before we look into Technician.
Snow Warning's immediate benefits are that it gives you a 1.5 multiplier to it's defense stat, and grants perfect accuracy to Blizzard, essentially giving a major bump to its main Ice STAB. Snow Warning also allows the option for Aurora Veil, which is a notable form of utility.
The defense boost has interesting applications, namely that you avoid being Pursuit trapped by Scarf Krook.
252 Atk Krookodile Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Froslass-Mega in Snow: 218-258 (77.5 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Froslass-Mega in Snow: 176-210 (62.6 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It also avoids the OHKO from Scizor's Bullet Punch as well, while isn't as immediately matchup flipping, still allows you to fire off a Will-O-Wisp or Shadow Ball for chip.
Aegislash also can't guarantee a 2HKO with Shadow Sneak even with Max Attack investment, meaning anything else is a bop.
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Froslass-Mega in Snow: 134-162 (47.6 - 57.6%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
These are all very useful matchups to swing for. So let's compare and contrast with Technician.
The major boon for Technician is boosting the power of its STAB moves to very high levels. Ominous Wind hits 90 BP, making it slightly more powerful and trades the SpD drop for a chance at raising all of its stats. But what rolls do we actually improve moving from SBall to Tech OWind?
The rolls are really small unboosted, but they start coming in at +2
+2 252 SpA Froslass-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 300-354 (76.1 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Ominous Wind vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 339-399 (86 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Froslass-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Vaporeon: 205-243 (44.2 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Ominous Wind vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Vaporeon: 231-273 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Froslass-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 208+ SpD Slowking: 386-456 (98.2 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Ominous Wind vs. 248 HP / 208+ SpD Slowking: 434-512 (110.4 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Ominous Wind vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 339-399 (86 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Froslass-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Vaporeon: 205-243 (44.2 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Ominous Wind vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Vaporeon: 231-273 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Froslass-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 208+ SpD Slowking: 386-456 (98.2 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Ominous Wind vs. 248 HP / 208+ SpD Slowking: 434-512 (110.4 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not a lot of targets for Shadow Ball vs Ominous Wind, but these are notable roll improvements. However, the real reason to ever want to run Technician over Snow Warning, are the Frost Breath calcs. Frost Breath is imo the main justification for why someone would argue Technician over Snow Warning, as Tech Frost Wind is an upgrade by several magnitudes. You bypass SpD Boosts, which are very notable, you don't lose accuracy once Snow is over, you in fact have perfect acc regardless of weather. And most importantly, you hit MUCH harder.
252 SpA Froslass-Mega Blizzard vs. 32 HP / 252 SpD Excadrill: 195-231 (52.8 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 32 HP / 252 SpD Excadrill on a critical hit: 241-285 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Froslass-Mega Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados: 136-162 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados on a critical hit: 169-199 (43 - 50.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Froslass-Mega Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 178-210 (49 - 57.8%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui on a critical hit: 219-258 (60.3 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Froslass-Mega Blizzard vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Floette-Mega: 270-318 (77.5 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Floette-Mega on a critical hit: 331-391 (95.1 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Froslass-Mega Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 253-298 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand on a critical hit: 310-366 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Froslass-Mega Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge-Mega: 248-294 (74.2 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge-Mega on a critical hit: 306-362 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Froslass-Mega Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Malamar-Mega: 253-298 (67.2 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Malamar-Mega on a critical hit: 310-366 (82.4 - 97.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 32 HP / 252 SpD Excadrill on a critical hit: 241-285 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Froslass-Mega Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados: 136-162 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados on a critical hit: 169-199 (43 - 50.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Froslass-Mega Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 178-210 (49 - 57.8%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui on a critical hit: 219-258 (60.3 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Froslass-Mega Blizzard vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Floette-Mega: 270-318 (77.5 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Floette-Mega on a critical hit: 331-391 (95.1 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Froslass-Mega Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 253-298 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand on a critical hit: 310-366 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Froslass-Mega Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge-Mega: 248-294 (74.2 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge-Mega on a critical hit: 306-362 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Froslass-Mega Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Malamar-Mega: 253-298 (67.2 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Technician Froslass-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Malamar-Mega on a critical hit: 310-366 (82.4 - 97.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
The calcs speak for themselves, Frost Breath is such a massive improvement over Blizzard it's not even funny. Blizzard's highest rolls are still on average 3% weaker than Frost Breath's weakest rolls, which are somewhat wider due to the nature of how critical hits and multipliers scale. The raw damage output alone is impressive but the importance of these calcs is to show that those boosts matter - Tyranitar is the #1 threat to a Froslass, and the common no bulk Choice Band sets that have been picking up steam on later get flat out OHKO'd by +2 Frost Breath after SR chip, which is pretty easy to ensure occurs, something Blizzard can't accomplish if it's under Sand, which 9/10 you will be in that particular matchup. You get a few more rolls to KO moms in your favour as well, but something noticable is that a lot of 2HKOes remain 2HKOes, and any 3HKOes barely make any head ground either. It's why I have been so selective with calcs, as most of metagame's Froslass matchup isn't changed on their defensive side. Froslass's main issues of being revenge killed many top foed are not addressed by these changes, and it needs to accept that as the case too. 100% Honourable mention is that Froslass gets Draining Kiss if you are into that, but +2 Frost Breath can OHKO a Tyranitar so I am not too committed to it being there.
Froslass Mega will most likely never be that good if Greninja is in the tier, and while I think that the flavor argument for Technician over Snow Warning is bad no matter how you dice it, I think there is real competitive merit to argue for one over the other, and that is interesting to me.
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not to pull an erm actually but frost breath is actually 90% accuracy
Anyway, thanks for actually not outright saying smth amongst the likes of "git gud stop complaining", I honestly was mostly advocating for technician since, it's just a fun idea imo and I do think mega froslass needs a buff, even if pretty much nothing will ever make it viable with greninja, ttar, scizor, and others simply existing in the tier, I just really liked the design and wanted it to be better at breaking (shocker the HO player likes when mons are offensive and not defensive) regardless, I realise mega froslass is highly unlikely to get technician both in this format or just in general by gamefreak so I wanted to shoot my shot, alas, it wasn't made to be, even if I try my hardest I am no mod and just repeating all over again "but the oni traits in the design are there so ...." will prove to be more annoying than anything over time
Also, sorry if the paragraph felt useless unfortunately my understanding of the metagame is very much limited and I don't really follow the tier changes, I mostly focused on technician from a strictly design and lore perspective while the entire gameplay aspect in my head was pretty much "bigger number go boom"
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