Gen 7 Let's Go OverUsed Discussion Thread

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banner still by Spook it's so cute
Welcome to the new hub for our main format! With almost every available Pokemon allowed, Let's Go OverUsed provides a balanced and surprisingly diverse, yet simple, competitive experience unlike any other. This thread will be the place to talk about the tier as a whole, share teams, and discuss tournaments and potential (albeit very unlikely) suspect tests.

:pikachu-starter:Rules
Mechanics: Pokemon are set to Level 50. Pokemon do not have EVs, Abilities, or Items other than Mega Stones*. IVs and Natures still apply.
Clauses: Smogon-Wide Clauses.
Banned Pokemon: Gengar-Mega, Mewtwo
*Disclaimer: The option to choose between X and Y Mega Evolutions mid-battle is not implemented on Showdown

:eevee-starter:Resources
Analyses (Subforum)
Damage Calculator
Discord
Sample Teams
Speed Tiers
Viability Rankings
Teambuilding Guide


Council
Eve (Tier Leader)
CasualPokePlayer
Kris
McCoolDude
Vengeance417
 
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:aerodactyl-mega:Let's Go OU Speed Tiers:alakazam-mega:
Stat
/ Pokemon / Base / Nature / Boost

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Tier 0 ( > +Spe Base 115)
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246
/ Venomoth / 90 / +Spe / +2
204 / Dragonite / 80 / Neutral / +2
200 / Cloyster / 70 / +Spe / +2
192 / Kingler / 75 / Neutral / +2
190 / Aerodactyl-Mega, Alakazam-Mega, Electrode / 150 / +Spe / 0
184 / Beedrill-Mega / 145 / +Spe / 0
184 / Venomoth / 90 / +Spe / +1
173 / Aerodactyl-Mega, Alakazam-Mega / Neutral / 0
168 / Beedrill-Mega / 145 / Neutral / 0
168 / Aerodactyl, Jolteon / 130 / +Spe / 0
157 / Alakazam, Dugtrio, Pikachu-Starter / 120 / +Spe / 0
152 / Omastar / 55 / Neutral / +2

:starmie:Tier 1 (+Spe Base 115 to >+Spe Base 80):starmie:
150
/ Persian-Alola, Starmie / 115 / +Spe / 0
145 / Dodrio, Dugtrio-Alola, Gengar, Raichu-Alola / 110 / +Spe / 0
143 / Ninetales-Alola / 109 / +Spe / 0
142 / Alakazam, Dugtrio, Pikachu-Starter / 120 / Neutral / 0
139 / Pinsir-Mega, Rapidash / 105 / +Spe / 0
134 / Charizard-Mega-X, Charizard-Mega-Y, Kangaskhan-Mega, Mew, Ninetales, Zapdos / 100 / +Spe / 0
128 / Arcanine, Primeape / 95 / +Spe / 0
123 / Moltres, Venomoth / 90 / +Spe / 0
122 / Charizard-Mega-X, Kangaskhan-Mega, Mew, Zapdos / 100 / Neutral / 0
117 / Nidoking / 85 / +Spe / 0
117 / Arcanine / 95 / Neutral / 0
113 / Gyarados, Gyarados-Mega / 81 / +Spe / 0

dragonite.png
Tier 2 (+Spe Base 80 to >Neutral Base 65)
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112 / Dragonite, Kabutops / 80 / +Spe / 0
109 / Hitmonlee / 87 / Neutral / 0
109 / Blastoise-Mega / 78 / +Spe / 0
106 / Eevee-Starter / 75 / +Spe / 0
103 / Gyarados, Gyarados-Mega / 81 / Neutral / 0
102 / Dragonite, Kabutops, Venusaur-Mega / 80 / Neutral / 0
100 / Cloyster, Poliwrath / 70 / +Spe / 0
99 / Blastoise-Mega / 78 / Neutral / 0
97 / Nidoqueen / 76 / Neutral / 0
96 / Eevee-Starter, Kingler / 75 / Neutral / 0
91 / Poliwrath, Victreebel / 70 / Neutral / 0
87 / Nidoqueen / 76 / -Spe / 0

:sandslash:Tier 3 (Neutral Base 65 and slower):sandslash-alola:
86
/ Sandslash, Sandslash-Alola, Vaporeon / 65 / Neutral / 0
82 / Poliwrath / 70 / -Spe / 0
81 / Clefable / 60 / Neutral / 0
76 / Exeggutor, Machamp, Omastar / 55 / Neutral / 0
71 / Chansey, Muk-Alola / 50 / Neutral / 0
66 / Exeggutor-Alola, Golem / 45 / Neutral / 0
64 / Muk-Alola / 50 / -Spe / 0
61 / Rhydon / 40 / Neutral / 0
60 / Melmetal / 34 / +Spe / 0
55 / Melmetal / 34 / Neutral / 0
51 / Slowbro-Mega, Snorlax / 30 / Neutral / 0

Last updated: 07/27/2020
 
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[art still by AmirAlexander rip m-gar]
Do you need a team to learn the tier with? Are you playing in a tournament but just can't be bothered to build? Well don't worry, because we've got you covered! The all new Sample Teams post has everything you need to fight with the best of them, and what's more, it's free! Just click on the sprites of the team you want and it's all yours, no strings attached. Try it today!


:aerodactyl-mega:zapdos.png:muk-alola::dugtrio-alola::mew:1596207120300.pngby McCoolDude

:alakazam-mega::muk-alola:cloyster.pngnidoqueen.png:mew:1596207120300.png by Collette

:beedrill-mega:zapdos.pngdragonite.pnggolem.png:mew:1596207120300.png by Eve

:charizard-mega-x:zapdos.png1596208359899.pngnidoqueen.png:mew:1596207120300.png by Eve


:gyarados-mega:zapdos.pngdragonite.pngnidoqueen.png:mew:1596207120300.png by Collette

:venusaur-mega:zapdos.png:chansey:nidoqueen.png:mew:1596207120300.png by Hayburner

Last Updated: 9th April 2021
 

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Collette

formerly Collesque
Here are some offensive cores proven to be effective, may help you when teambuilding :)

:sm/zapdos: :sm/gyarados-mega:
Zapdos is immediately very threatening to teams, and most have a dedicated response, like Dugtrio Alola, Rhydon, Nidoqueen, or Nidoking. Mega Gyarados thrives on these pokemon, and if Zapdos can U-turn on any of these, Gyarados can come in and threaten these pokemon out with its powerful water STAB. In the early game, this also denies the opponent stealth rocks. Mega Gyarados is very threatening and hard to switch into in general, so the more times you can get this Pokemon in the better. Starmie can be used as a very budget mega gyarados on teams that already have a mega, the same concept of water STAB punishing ground types applies here.
:sm/beedrill-mega: :sm/mew: I have fire move and U turn
Beedrill is known for dominating the momentum of a game through its powerful U-turns, but it struggles to pressure Melmetal because if you attempt to predict it with Drill Run, you still have to switch into it after, a process many teams struggle with. By partnering Mega Bee with Fire Blast U-turn mew, or even WiIl-o-wisp U-turn mew, you can force out Melmetal very easily, and potentially U-turn again on the Melmetal switch as they switch into something to take a burn or fire blast like Mew or Snorlax, going back into Mega Beedrill and forcing them out again. This core is especially powerful when there are no rocks on the field, so Alolan Persian or Water-types can be useful to deny your opponent rocks. Alolan Persian is extra notable because it has U-turn itself, contributing to the momentum core, and can taunt things like Zapdos after they take stealth rock damage, and keep them low health.
:sm/alakazam-mega: :ss/cloyster:
Mega Alakazam cannot be reliably outsped by any Pokemon in the tier, and it has a large amount of sweeping potential with its massive special attack and setup options. However it is usually dealt with using hard answers like Alolan Muk, Chansey, Snorlax, or high HP targets like Melmetal, Mew, and Mega Gyarados. Cloyster does something similar, a fast threatening sweeper shut down by Alolan Muk, Mew, etc. Cloyster has the ability to use self destruct, massively chipping or outright removing Pokemon like Mega Gyarados, Alolan Muk, and Snorlax. Considering the fact that these 2 pokemon share so many checks, this means that in the lategame (when defensive options are limited) Cloyster will force a defensive option from your opponent and heavily damage or remove it, meaning Mega Alakazam can likely win.

Here are 3 teams that could potentially be implemented into the sample teams that demonstrate these cores very well.

https://pokepast.es/e8821486c741b518 This team uses timid Zapdos to pivot into Gyarados, preforming as described. Dragon Tail on Gyarados forces out the pokemon your opponent sends in to deal with Gyarados, forcing them to take chip and more rocks damage. Spedef wisp mew is the main defensive backbone, supported by zapdos and nidoqueen. The nidoqueen is standard, reliably gets up rocks while providing extra damage and status, as well as being a hard zapdos counter. Melmetal has both toxic and thunderwave to deal with faster threats that the team struggles with, as well as whittling down things like mew or zapdos so other pokemon can win. The dragonite has a naughty nature and fire blast, which means it needs much much less damage on melmetal to sweep, while slightly limiting setup opportunities.

https://pokepast.es/817b2bfcbb053c22 Mega Beedrill and a mew set that can force out melmetal is the main offensive core, Zapdos and Persian alola contribute to this, checking Melmetal and denying hazards respectively, while both of them have U-turn and offensively pressure the opposing team. Melmetal is impish with thunder punch because a large amount of damage on Gyarados and Poliwrath is very appreciated by this team. Sandslash provides reliable rocks, essential for a U-turn core, and Counter can punish the opponent for U-turning with mega bee, OHKO Poliwrath or Mega Gyarados, and beat melmetal 1v1.

https://pokepast.es/a4478fcc08445468 This last team is fairy standard, has a defensive core in Mew and Muk, Special offense in Cloyster and mega zam, nidoqueen provides rocks and Melmetal is vibing. Foul play Muk would be the only deviation from the norm, this prevents the team to losing to bulk up rest mew, and hits many pokemon harder than crunch. Zapdos could be run over Muk to better the matchup against ground types.
 

Collette

formerly Collesque
sorry for double post I just didn't know how to merge these
There are a couple things that have been difficult to test without a ladder, so I just wanted to share some ideas that are not really represented on the forums at the moment yet.

:sm/blastoise-mega: :sm/gyarados-mega: :sm/charizard-mega-x: :sm/exeggutor-alola:
Dragon Tail
Dragon Tail is something that has been featured very little in the strategy dex, but I believe it is an extremely viable move on the above Pokemon. Mega Blastoise and Mega Gyarados are very powerful wallbreakers with limited switch-ins. When your opponent attempts to go into these Pokemon, Dragon Tail chips them, and makes them take an extra round of stealth rock later on. Although it is up to chance what pokemon is dragged in, because they had gone into the best counter to the Dragon Tail user beforehand, the odds are that it will be a pokemon that is beat by the user.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-1178107484
In this replay, the opponent's answer to Mega Blastoise is Poliwrath, as everything else would be 2HKOd by Surf and coverage like Ice Beam or Dark Pulse. On turn 5, Mega Blastoise easily forces out Rhydon, and the opponent goes Poliwrath to avoid a 2HKO and hit back with a Toxic or a Low Kick, but the blastoise uses Dragon Tail, and forces it out into his bee. 14% may not sound like a lot of damage, but considering that the poliwrath took rocks, took 14%, and then will have to take rocks again, it has been chipped significantly. In addition, the opponent has been sent into Beedrill, and while this is not as bad as say, if the opponent had been sent back into Rhydon, beedrill still cannot win vs the turtle 1v1, and has to switch out, losing precious health to rocks. They attempt to go Poliwrath but they miscalculate, as the poliwrath is now in range of surf. Unable to kill a 70% Blastoise, the opponent goes back into beedrill, to U-turn out for damage and attempt to pivot in. They are unable to try to predict a Dragon Tail, because that would mean risking the life of beedrill, so they U-turn into Mew, who can attempt to check blastoise, but the blastoise clicks Dragon Tail again, putting the mew through rocks and Dragon Tail chip, leaving it very weakened. Dragonite is dragged in, losing very important health to rocks, and because it cannot kill without outraging and sacrificing itself, the opponent pivots into Melmetal, finally taking down Blastoise but at the cost of 78% of Melmetal's health. With water answers like Poliwrath, Mew, and Melmetal dealt with, Cloyster wins the game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-1184103716
In this game Mega Charizard gets in on a Melmetal very early on, the Melmetal is very valuable as always, and can't be sacked to fire blast so he switches, the opponent goes Muk to eat up a fire blast and try to toxic, and gets Dragon Tail'd, takes 12% from rocks, 30% from Dtail, and will have to come in on rocks again, so the Muk is essentially below 50% after 1 interaction. Melmetal is unfortunately put back in, the opponent cannot afford to predict a dragon tail, Melmetal could be easily OHKOd, they try to go Mew to pivot in. Mew takes a similarly large amount of damage and is shuffled out, luckily getting in Muk. The Charizard is timid, so just barely misses out on the KO, notice that if it was a neutral attack nature or a +SpA nature, it would have easily done enough damage to KO Muk. Zard is brought out again later vs a venusaur, Starmie is attempted to be brought in on a fire move, but loses half its health to Dragon Tail and is forced back into venusaur. At this point thanks to the chip and positioning brought by Dragon Tail, there are no switches into Fire Blast(as zap is presumably not timid and cannot switch in) and Venusaur is forced to be sacked. With the defensive core of Muk and Venusaur gone and Mew less than 50%, the remaining offensive mons clean up.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-1184131044
This final example begins very similarly to the previous one, Melmetal being a popular way of punishing an obvious lead aerodactyl. In this case however, the opponent has a very difficult matchup with a Zard X, and only after a single Dragon Tail play on Rhydon, the opponent has no switch in and has to sack a Pokemon. They unwisely choose Mew, which is cleanly 2HKOd, and the previous dragon tail damage on Rhydon leaves it unable to function as a check anymore. They are able to take down the zard with some favorable paralysis, but the team is left too weak to other special threats at that point for them to even have a chance.

Mega Gyarados functions very similarly to Mega Blastoise, albeit quite a bit more viably, and with Dragon Tail being physical, I suspect it should be able to use it to even greater effect than Blastoise. Exeggutor alola gains STAB on Dragon Tail and has great attack, so even though it will be functioning as a special attacker, when your switch in is hit by a dragon tail it will hurt, plus exegg has little competition for a 4th move slot, as hypnosis or reflect are easily outstripped in viability.
1 last pokemon that uses this very well would be Mew, just in a very different way. Dragon Tail is the preferred move on Bulk Up Amnesia Rest sets, as it has amazing neutral coverage and prevents anything from setting up alongside you. It also utilizes stealth rock damage to shred the opposing team and limit their opportunities to get in Pokemon that can kill you with a crit, like Zapdos Mega Aero or Mega Beedril. Shown here, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-1178303220-4dao939yr7ymspzykfkwp6j8f48j2n9pw preventing an opposing nasty plot mew from pressuring it and preventing mega aero from crunching for too long.


:sm/venusaur-mega: Petal Dance
So it had came to my attention that Solar Beam from Mega Venusaur is the strongest attack in the tier, which is cool, but obviously not necessarily very viable. But running some calcs with Petal Dance, it does not seem to be a bad option at all. Offensive Venusaur has been overshadowed by the more viable defensive set for some time, but I think it could preform admirably in some matchups, especially if unexpected.
Melmetal, for example is a very common answer to Mega Venu, and it is pretty easily 3HKOd
Mega Venusaur Petal Dance vs. Melmetal: 63-74 (30 - 35.2%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
This is huge, as the most Melmetal can do to Venusaur in a single turn is around 55% with Double Iron Bash, which means Mega Venusaur will be able to pretty often and consistently prevent it from switching in.
Modest also boosts the power of sludge bomb significantly enough that Zapdos can no longer serve as a viable pivot.
Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. Zapdos: 73-87 (44.2 - 52.7%) After a poison, this is way too much damage to try to stall roost off. In addition, if a Zapdos attempts to roost, it will lose it's flying typing, and take huuuge amounts of damage from petal dance. Mega Venusaur Petal Dance vs. grounded Zapdos: 96-114 (58.1 - 69%)
Mew is still very much an issue, able to outspeed and roost off any damage, but when using Petal Dance, Mew is unable to try to attack Mega Venusaur or do anything but heal. Mega Venusaur Petal Dance vs. Mew: 88-105 (50.2 - 60%) Due to the confusion self inflected from Petal Dance, Mew is still able to switch in, but if it ends up being paralyzed, poisoned, or toxic'd, it will either be unable to switch in at all, or be be under heavy pressure to be at high amounts of health to check Mega Venusaur.

:sm/Muk-alola: Modest, or Foul Play
The traditional Muk set has been Sassy to make it most optimal for checking special threats,, with Crunch as it's main STAB, Toxic as a reliable way of handling pokemon with recovery like Mew, Zapdos, and Charizard, Fire blast to threaten Melmetal, something always desirable, and mega drain for the recovery potential and coverage. There are 2 alternative sets that I wanted to share that accomplish various things better or worse.
Muk-Alola

Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mega Drain
- Fire Blast
- Foul Play
- Toxic
Running Foul Play over crunch prevents you from needing to run Sassy, meaning you can outspeed a Jolly rhydon attempting to tech you, but more importantly it hits many many many pokemon harder than crunch. Foul Play has quite a bit higher base power than crunch, and takes advantage of the much higher attack stat on pokemon like Melmetal and Mega Aerodactyl and Dragonite to do quite a bit more damage. It also reliably does more damage to Mew and Zapdos, because these pokemon run U-turn very very often, which means they are running full attack IVs. The downside to this is you do much less to Starmie and Alakazam, turning potential OHKO's into 2HKOs. This is substantial enough of a drawback to make it not the first choice, but still is a very viable option, and can also be important to not losing to Bulk Up Rest Mew.

Muk-Alola
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mega Drain
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Toxic
This set trades becoming a worse response to Pokemon like Alakazam for becoming a better response to things like Mew, and has a unique offensive presence. Modest allows you to outspeed and OHKO Rhydon with Giga Drain, 2HKO Melmetal with rocks up, and most importantly, get burned. Dark Pulse means you can to switch into Psychic Wisp Mew and not instantly be neutered, you can still Toxic it and do large chunks of damage, forcing it to Roost, unlike Crunch, which can do around 25% to Mew when burnt.



Apologies for the inconsistent formatting and capitalization.
 
Exeggutor alola gains STAB on Dragon Tail and has great attack, so even though it will be functioning as a special attacker, when your switch in is hit by a dragon tail it will hurt, plus exegg has little competition for a 4th move slot, as hypnosis or reflect are easily outstripped in viability.
just to note that it is at minimum reasonable for exeggutor-a to run dragon tail as its sole dragon stab. it is slower than everything that it wants to use its dragon stab against with the exception of opposing exeggutor-a, and almost all of the pokemon it wants to use its dragon stab against (the dragon and fire types of the tier) are weak to rocks and hate being phased out which makes up for the lower damage output, again except for opposing exeggutor-a. (also when running dragon tail you may choose to use a -speed nature, in which case you are losing the mirror matchup against modest exeggutor-a regardless)
dragon pulse may be preferred in situations where you do not want to rely on prediction, for example facing melmetal when the opponent has say a zard x, in certain situations you may not want to click flamethrower and risk giving zard x a free switchin, and using dragon pulse will still give you some decent chip damage on melmetal if it does stay in while preventing zard x from switching in, while if you use dragon tail while melmetal stays in it will move first and presumably ohko you. however those are pretty specific scenarios.

so while running dragon pulse and dragon tail together isnt completely implausible, i think u will find that you are rarely actually using dragon pulse on that set, and it is at least as viable to drop dragon pulse and use hypnosis/reflect/whatever in the fourth slot. hypnosis + dragon tail can be quite effective, since if you do land hypnosis the opponent is heavily pressured to switch out, especially if the slept pokemon does not resist mega drain, which gives you a potentially free turn to dragon tail and get rocks damage on two pokemon plus have a chance to phase the slept pokemon back in.

1 last pokemon that uses this very well would be Mew, just in a very different way. Dragon Tail is the preferred move on Bulk Up Amnesia Rest sets, as it has amazing neutral coverage and prevents anything from setting up alongside you. It also utilizes stealth rock damage to shred the opposing team and limit their opportunities to get in Pokemon that can kill you with a crit, like Zapdos Mega Aero or Mega Beedril. Shown here, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-1178303220-4dao939yr7ymspzykfkwp6j8f48j2n9pw preventing an opposing nasty plot mew from pressuring it and preventing mega aero from crunching for too long.
i saw eve mention this set too and i am somewhat confused about why dragon tail is the preferred physical attack.
~ @ opposing pokemon setting up alongside you, set up moves (other than agility which is not relevant for this context) are pretty rare in lgpe ou? really outside of mew they are very uncommon, calm mind on m-zam but m-zam is only going to be using shadow ball regardless of mew's chosen attack since it has terrible physical bulk; maybe bulk up on some fighting types which will lose to bulk up mew regardless of its chosen attack; shell smash cloyster which has to lower its defense to set up and will also mostly struggle with mew regardless of its chosen attack; mega pinsir which is a potential issue but it can only really have a chance to set up while mew is sleeping anyway, with the exception of mega pinsir that run bulk up instead of swords dance to whatever extent that is viable, and of course calm mind clefable which is immune to dragon tail, thats pretty much it (lol quiver dance venomoth).
~ since you are presumably trying to set up as much as possible before attacking, stealth rock damage is mainly relevant for pokemon you dont damage well with your chosen attack, most likely melmetal. eg you bring up mega beedrill but m-bee is going to be ko'ed by almost whatever physical attack after a few boosts, the stealth rock damage is not really relevant, or rather the stealth rock damage is relevant for m-bee trying to get a crit with u-turn, which has nothing to do with mew running dragon tail.
~ the negative priority seems extremely unfavorable to me for a set up sweeper that has a pretty good speed tier, because it means that you have to take more attacks while and after setting up, and also means that eg opposing users of leech seed and sleep inducers can use those moves before/without taking any damage, both of which are pretty crippling, tho i guess dragon tail does have the feature of preventing counter.
(there is nothing in the replay that really shows the merits of dragon tail specifically, with maybe the exception of phasing opposing np mew, and once mew got to like +3/+3/+4 it was likely to be over regardless of its chosen attack. i agree that dealing with opposing np mew is important but dragon tail is not the only or even the best move for doing so.)

some other possible physical attacks:

megahorn ~ this seems to me the best mono-attack to run, but at minimum it has the most to offer that dragon tail lacks. +1 megahorn has a chance to ohko opposing (neutral natured) mew after stealth rock so you really dont have to worry about np mew at all; outspeeds and does 74-88% to mega gyarados, which is also very useful since m-gyara's crunch easily ko's with a crit and does pretty good damage even after one or two bulk ups as well as carrying a defense drop chance, plus m-gyara sometimes runs dragon tail itself; and unboosted megahorn ohko's m-zam, and also foul play persian-a and exeggutor-k. megahorn has excellent base power and actually reasonably good neutral coverage in the tier, with gengar being the only common 4x resist. it is also resisted by zard x but the latter's moves have low pp so it has limited chances to land a critical hit and can be easily pp stalled, but if it has dragon tail it can end a sweep, since it survives even +6 megahorn after rocks (but if mew is running dragon tail, then the same is true for +speed zard x and neutral speed zard x has a 50/50 chance to p-haze mew before it is p-hazed itself, and do so without taking any damage.) gengar is a significant problem while mew is just starting to set up, and after set up it will still have some chances to try to ko with a crit shadow ball due to its 4x resistance to megahorn and usually running wisp.
some other useful features of megahorn's high base power are that +6 megahorn usually 3hko's melmetal so it cannot rest loop, +1 megahorn ohko's chansey to prevent it from getting off toxic or stoss, and +1 megahorn 2hko's muk-a. it is also the strongest option vs mega venusaur (which is a huge problem for dragon tail sets because of leech seed + sleep powder), for example +2 megahorn will usually still 2hko with one turn of leech seed recovery, and +2 megahorn also ohko's eevee-s before it can use sappy seed.
megahorn sets would prob play a little differently, they want to be somewhat more aggressive with bulk up because many initial mew switch-ins are heavily threatened by +1 megahorn, and may not need to prioritize setting up amnesia as much esp against teams without gengar due to the excellent matchup against opposing psychics. this is also an advantage bc as soon as u use rest the opponent can switch in any dtail user if they have one and p-haze mew before it wakes up (which leaves mew close to full health but the point is to remove its boosts).

waterfall ~ waterfall has very good neutral coverage in the tier as well as a flinch chance and notably is the only real option that hits melmetal neutrally. being resisted by most opposing dragon tail and sleep move users is a downside, tho mew can always be p-hazed when it is asleep anyway. hitting nidoqueen and m-aero super effectively is nice, and the extra pp (compared to all the other moves suggested here) could be useful sometimes too idk. as is true of all the moves listed below this, the much lower damage on opposing mew means that np mew may be more of a concern.

play rough ~ decent bp and very good neutral coverage in the tier. hitting m-gyara super effectively is again valuable, tho play rough is obv not as strong as megahorn. note that it is also resisted by gengar and nidoqueen, as well as m-venu, really its sole advantage over megahorn is against zard x and dnite (but dnite is unlikely to have dtail anyway and probably loses if it doesnt).

rock slide ~ it has a lot of super effective coverage that could be useful, vs zapdos, m-aero, m-pinsir, dragons, but most of those outspeed mew anyway so dragon tail is just as effective against them, and rock slide could have serious pp problems due to being resisted by many physically bulky pokemon in the tier (melmetal, grounds and poliwrath) even tho mew will still have good matchups with all of those individually, with the exception of counter sandslash-k.

(if it is not clear i have not used bulk up amnesia rest mew, why i am phrasing this more as questions / out of ~curiosity)
 
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along the lines of bulk up/amnesia/rest mew, has anyone tried out / had success with other moves boosting defenses, some potential options to explore are: iron defense melmetal, barrier (m-)alakazam, iron defense muk-a, amnesia m-venusaur.

With the key exception of zapdos many of melmetal's prominent checks are actually on the physical side, such as mega gyarados and poliwrath, neither of which can 3hko +2 melmetal, tho poliwrath could potentially run bulk up. opposing melmetal also cannot 3hko at +2, nor can any of sandslash-k, nidoking even with a +attack nature, and nidoqueen with super fang followed by 2 earthquakes. however, melmetal reallyyyy has trouble fitting acid armor + rest on its moveset, basically it means it has to choose between earthquake and toxic for its fourth moveslot, without earthquake it cannot do much of anything to opposing melmetal other than try to pp stall and it is also going to have serious issues with attacking pp in general with dib as its only damaging move, and without toxic it is completely helpless against zapdos. or maybe it could drop dib and run both eq + toxic since eq covers all toxic immune pokemon and has better pp than dib, particularly actually being able to beat opposing melmetal without using all its attacking pp, but obviously dropping the most threatening attack in the metagame is a significant cost. nature is debatable, probably impish or careful is preferable to adamant.
i have tried to build with acid armor melmetal a few times (before the m-gar ban tho) and was not at all satisfied with it, however that was also before toxic was as common on melmetal and idr if i even tried toxic / acid armor / rest.
as with many suggestions here, i think acid armor + rest melmetal will have significant consistenty issues, particularly due to the zapdos matchup. however some teams may find themselves almost unable to deal with it at all so i think it def has some viability.


Almost all of m-zam's checks are physical attackers, rly all other than chansey, so barrier seems to have a lot of potential. for example, at +2 snorlax can only do 36-44% with crunch, and at +4 it cannot even ko with self-destruct after rocks, so snorlax lacking toxic is actually in a pretty bad position if it switches into barrier, tho if it has body slam it can at least fish for para. if melmetal is not running a status move it will also be in a bad position if it switches into barrier bc zam can boost to +4 and then recover stall dib out of pp pretty easily. even adamant m-gyara is only 50% to ohko +2 m-zam after rocks (and is 2hko'ed by dazzling gleam otherwise), and neutral attack m-gyara cannot ever ko after rocks. however, zam's vulnerability to status means that matchups that barrier would otherwise flip such as against toxic muk-a it will still lose at least most of the time. unless someone thinks m-zam could run rest (prob dazzling gleam / cm / barrier / rest LOL but if ur trying to run a set like that u should prob be doing it with mew instead).

and obviously the moveslots taken up by barrier + recover means that zam can only run two attacks, dropping shadow ball doesnt matter much for melmetal but leaves u usually unable to beat toxic mew and twave starmie tho it can stall out other starmie and defensive mew, and dropping dazz gleam means u are not improving either the m-gyara or muk-a matchups which leaves snorlax and melmetal lacking status as the only matchups improved by barrier.
nonetheless, barrier sets would need to be handled somewhat differently and since teams often rely heavily on a single pokemon (usually muk-a) to deal with m-zam, they may find themselves in a lot of trouble if they are not prepared to deal with a moveset with barrier. particularly the occasional rest muk-a which might not be running toxic and suddenly it cant check m-zam at all. also barrier m-zam can usually run modest, because m-aero cannot beat +2 zam at all and jolly m-bee cannot ohko it after rocks so that mu becomes a sort of 50/50 even if the beedrill user has figured out that m-zam is modest, so timid would really only be for the mirror matchup.

this case is a little different, muk-a is a pokemon that would reallyyy like to run rest in general, but usually cannot do so very effectively because even though it can rest loop some key special attackers including m-zam without calm mind, they can just switch out to common pokemon such as ground types that easily outspeed and 2hko it. acid armor can help with this somewhat, muk-a will still not be able to rest loop against eg nidoqueen even at +4, but using acid armor before using rest, particularly on an opposing will-o-wisp, can protect muk-a from being 2hko'ed by grounds allowing it to burn a key second sleep turn while still staying at reasonably high health. acid armor can also help with prediction in situations when you are not sure which physical attacker will switch in, for example +2 muk-a with mega drain can 1v1 sandslash-k and esp poliwrath pretty well despite being outsped, and rhydon even if it is outsped, and is 50/50 to avoid being 2hko'ed by melmetal's earthquake and if it does avoid the 2hko, foul play has a ~25% chance to 3hko melmetal after rocks.

the moveslots are not as crucial to muk-a as for melmetal and m-zam, particularly if it runs foul play for stab which lets it drop flamethrower/fire blast and still deal good damage to melmetal, and then it can choose between mega drain and toxic for the fourth moveslot, toxic probably being preferable in most cases.


Venusaur has good matchups with many physical attackers already, and amnesia can allow it to stay in and use leech seed against some special attackers it would otherwise be forced out by, particularly defensive mew which can no longer outpace leech seed and mega drain recovery even assuming it is running psychic which does 30-36% to +2 venusaur, and it similarly flips the gengar matchup. amnesia will also win the mirror. (ill look into this a lil more later and edit this post accordingly, i havent investigated this option as much as the others)

i think the only move amnesia can rly replace is sleep powder, dropping sludge bomb means losing the mirror instead of winning it and that is also one of m-venus safest opportunities to set up amnesia (among other things), and amnesia is designed to help m-venu stay as healthy as possible so losing mega drain recovery is undesirable.

edit: this is somewhat different but to not double post, counter as an option for alolan sandslash.

counter is most important for impacting the m-gyara matchup, which is ohko'ed by a countered earthquake and heavily damaged by countered waterfall or crunch, and even if counter is known it is still a 50/50 bc if m-gyara tries to use substitute or twave instead it has to take an extra attack.

counter also significantly helps sandslash-a when it has not boosted, particularly for melmetal which is ohko'ed by countered earthquake and takes ~50% from countered dib. also eg impish nidoqueen which is a roll to be koed by ice punch + ice shard as opposed to being ohkoed by countered eq or almost ohkoed by countered super fang. if impish, sandslash-a even has a chance to survive poliwraths low kick and ohko back with counter.

the reality is ice punch is not that important, the main target at +2 is sandslash-k which depends on a speed tie otherwise ice shard is just as good, and rhydon which takes only slightly less from earthquake but is not ohkoed by +2 ice punch if impish anyway, and rhydon is unlikely to be anywhere near full health when sandslash-a is sweeping anyway. almost everything else relevant for ice punch outspeeds so ice shard is just as good in terms of sweeping; and prior to setting up counter helps with ice punch targets such as grounds and m-aero anyway, in addition to flipping the m gyara matchup

counter is effective alongside swords dance, as pokemon trying to avoid counter can instead end up giving a safer set up turn, but it maybe could also replace swords dance (allowing the fourth moveslot for stealth rock or maybe toxic). alolan sandslash has a good typing for using counter bc 1 it is immune to toxic and 2 outside of users of fire type moves most pokemon rely on eq to hit it hard and the only earthquake in the tier that ohkos is adamant rhydon's.
 
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With our first LGPE Global Championships coming up, we're bound to have a bunch of new players looking to get/make teams. To help with that, here's a quick basic teambuilding guide- this isn't the only way to build LGPE teams, by any means, but it's very tried, true, and simple.

First I'll show the recommended structure, and then I'll explain it for anyone wondering what it does.
  • Mew
  • Melmetal
  • Mega
  • Ground-type
  • Zapdos / Filler
  • Filler / Special Tank
Mew is not 2HKOed by almost any neutral attack and packs great Speed, reliable recovery and momentum. This makes it by far the best defensive tool in the metagame, especially in a meta quite lacking in good resistances to types like Ground and Water. It can also provide Stealth Rock, or, for a more offensive approach, attempt a sweep with Nasty Plot or Bulk Up (Facade EQ Roost is the standard for that set). There's pretty much no reason to not run Mew.
The same is true of Melmetal, which is an extremely valuable resource and can 1v1 99% of the metagame in a pinch, notably including massive threats like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Alakazam, and Mega Beedrill, while also being a terrifying breaker with very limited responses. Use your Melmetal carefully, however, or you'll probably get cleaned up hard.
Almost every LGPE OU team is better off having a Mega- thanks to LGPE's lack of items, it's viable to even have two potential Mega Evolutions in some cases, given that the base formes are effective enough.
Ground-types are the best way to avoid being overly vulnerable to Zapdos, which can otherwise be the most disgusting Pokemon you'll ever have the displeasure of battling. Which one you choose really depends on preference and playstyle- Rhydon/Golem are the most damaging Ground-types and provide the best physical tanking presence but have crippling weaknesses, a Toxic vulnerability, and poor Speed; Nidoqueen is the best defensively and has an amazing tool in Super Fang, but can struggle to make much progress offensively; Alolan Dugtrio has the best overall offensive presence due to its great Speed while also packing a Toxic immunity, but its relative frailty can cause issues; and Nidoking and Sandslash are both decent, albeit more niche, options with specific upsides and drawbacks that you can read in their analyses. This slot can provide Stealth Rock if you don't have space for the hazard on Mew.
Zapdos has great power, a powerful defensive typing that includes a vital resistance to Double Iron Bash, and, like Mew, also has coveted access to U-Turn and Roost. Having a Zapdos on your team makes you significantly less terrified of massive wallbreaking threats like Melmetal and Mega Gyarados too- note, however, that Zapdos is not a safe switchin to either if Stealth Rock are up (they will be). Toxic Zapdos can be a real pain to try and outlast or handle, while Reflect Zapdos is a great momentum-preserving pivot that keeps its teammates safe as they inevitably switch into whatever the opposing Ground-type goes for. Zapdos is less required than Mew and Melmetal, hence the option for this slot to be something else, but if you don't know what you're doing and don't have any crazy synergistic ideas, you're probably better off with zap.
The last slot is typically filler, meaning you can put whatever you want here. This slot is the main source of creativity in this structure. The Pokemon you already have should barely cover most of the biggest threats in the metagame, but maybe you could use this slot for a bit more insurance against something that matches up well against your specific Mega Evolution. Maybe you could use it to take a bit of pressure off of Melmetal defensively, freeing it up to dish out its massive attacks earlier in a battle. Maybe you could use it as a breaker/cleaner to either clear the way for your Mega Evolution or exploit the holes said Mega leaves in the opposing team- a good example of this is the combination of Mega Alakazam and Shell Smash Cloyster, who both share many similar checks and negate most offensive counterplay by outspeeding everything. This slot was almost always filled with a special tank when Mega Gengar was in the tier, but the demand has since died down dramatically- it's still a good option and worth listing, however, as the likes of Mega Alakazam, Gengar, and Starmie can make them worth using. The primary options for this role are Alolan Muk, Snorlax, and Chansey.

I hope this helps some of you! If you need any elaboration or a demonstration/explanation of how this tier even works in the first place, feel free to ping me in the LGPE Discord (or ask here / in a Smogon DM if you don't have Discord). Good luck to all!
 
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