Until every photo of mine is burnt and the owner of any of my old clothes has no memory of me then I have officially died.
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Serious Life After Death
- Thread starter Eagle4
- Start date
Until every photo of mine is burnt and the owner of any of my old clothes has no memory of me then I have officially died.
I was thinking about this very topic a couple of weeks ago. And I basically concluded that as far as I can tell, there is nothing after death. However, not in any sort of way that negates any sort of soul argument. That said the idea of a soul argument scares me as I feel quite strongly that deep down I'm an evil person trapped inside a context where morals have been drilled into me in a nature vs nurture kind of scenario.
Anyway, all rational thought leads to the conclusion that there is nothing 'you' as a person can do, think, feel after death. A person is mentally a sum of their memories. As brain function ceases after death as far as we know, there is no way to assume that we can still be us once we die. We would lose our memories and contexts and even if some part of us 'lives on' it still wouldn't be us because it lacks the defining contexts that make a person different from another person.
However while typing this, I can't help but thinking that if people who are clinically dead can avoid complete amnesia then there might be some sort of spiritual deposit of memory. Who knows.
I like to keep it logical and don't want to delude myself to death being some sort of new type of experience.
Anyway, all rational thought leads to the conclusion that there is nothing 'you' as a person can do, think, feel after death. A person is mentally a sum of their memories. As brain function ceases after death as far as we know, there is no way to assume that we can still be us once we die. We would lose our memories and contexts and even if some part of us 'lives on' it still wouldn't be us because it lacks the defining contexts that make a person different from another person.
However while typing this, I can't help but thinking that if people who are clinically dead can avoid complete amnesia then there might be some sort of spiritual deposit of memory. Who knows.
I like to keep it logical and don't want to delude myself to death being some sort of new type of experience.
This part in particular says a lot:
It brings up a point that the "spectrum" stuff kind of gets at: We have no precise definition of the self. Can I really refer to my "original sperm" as "me", when the "original egg" from my mother is needed to form "me" at the point of conception? More than that, though, the matter that makes up "me" is being replaced all the time. I recall the skin replaces itself pretty much completely every month or something like that. When I die (whatever that means), even if you try to define "me" as whatever matter I was made of when I died, well, in a sense that's impossible. Particles do not have labels; they can be distinguished solely by their quantum states. So even the definition of the self breaks down when we're not "obviously alive".
We know a lot about what happens to a corpse after everything stops functioning. However, we "don't know" what happens to the consciousness. A big part of that is that we don't have a proper definition of consciousness in the first place. So it's fruitless to have a discussion of when consciousness starts to exist or stops existing or whatever. I'm kind of a hypocrite for linking since I haven't read any of the links posted so far, but I find this an interesting read on the subject.
The problem is, whether that's true or not isn't relevant to anything. So it's not a falsifiable belief and thus cannot really be a "theory"...
Smith said:
It brings up a point that the "spectrum" stuff kind of gets at: We have no precise definition of the self. Can I really refer to my "original sperm" as "me", when the "original egg" from my mother is needed to form "me" at the point of conception? More than that, though, the matter that makes up "me" is being replaced all the time. I recall the skin replaces itself pretty much completely every month or something like that. When I die (whatever that means), even if you try to define "me" as whatever matter I was made of when I died, well, in a sense that's impossible. Particles do not have labels; they can be distinguished solely by their quantum states. So even the definition of the self breaks down when we're not "obviously alive".
We know a lot about what happens to a corpse after everything stops functioning. However, we "don't know" what happens to the consciousness. A big part of that is that we don't have a proper definition of consciousness in the first place. So it's fruitless to have a discussion of when consciousness starts to exist or stops existing or whatever. I'm kind of a hypocrite for linking since I haven't read any of the links posted so far, but I find this an interesting read on the subject.
Eagle4 said:
The problem is, whether that's true or not isn't relevant to anything. So it's not a falsifiable belief and thus cannot really be a "theory"...
you are born, you live, you die. sad as it seems you truly make no impact on the world at large. and even if you accomplish something truly, truly great, something that lasts as long as the entirety of the human race, so what? if it lasts ten thousand, a hundred thousand, a million years -- an extraordinary, unimaginably long time, that is insignificant in terms of the universe.
kinda sucks i guess. there is no "ultimate goal" really, and god is a figment of the human imagination, trying to pin a Grand Point To Everything on it all. that's why i don't subscribe to any silly rules and regulations of how to live my life so as to win the ultimate, non-existent prize. it's rather freeing.
kinda sucks i guess. there is no "ultimate goal" really, and god is a figment of the human imagination, trying to pin a Grand Point To Everything on it all. that's why i don't subscribe to any silly rules and regulations of how to live my life so as to win the ultimate, non-existent prize. it's rather freeing.
For some reason I feel a strong urge to just yell YOLO and run away. :P
Anyway I always thought you live, you die, end of story. It's not that I didn't put much thought in to it, it's just that we really can't know and that the simplest, most logical answer. So you should try to enjoy this existence for what it's worth and get the most out of it.
Anyway I always thought you live, you die, end of story. It's not that I didn't put much thought in to it, it's just that we really can't know and that the simplest, most logical answer. So you should try to enjoy this existence for what it's worth and get the most out of it.
Basically this is exactly what I believe, though it's impossible to not have your own theory about what happens after death. As I said above, I think that what's called "soul" simply goes to the universe, and can "reborn" again, but it will not be the same person. What happens when a soul goes to the universe, I don't know, and I am also considering the possibility that nothing really happens and we simply cease to exist.
I don't think that God exists and that there's heaven or hell. I don't believe that "good or evil" exists on that strict concept, so I don't believe that our actions will ever be rewarded (or punished) after death. And if reincarnation (or rebirth) exists, I don't think that our actions on this life would influence that another life, supposing that reincarnation is really possible, of course.
I'm sorry, but when talking about life after death, it's somewhat impossible to not talk about religion.
And I think that as, at moment, it's impossible to know what happens after death, that people shouldn't be "chasing" a way to the heaven, if you know what I mean. On my opinion, people should be enjoying their lives. Because if you die and there's some sort of life after death, you can see yourself and rest assured thinking of how much cool things you did and how you enjoyed well your life. If there isn't any life after death; at least your life will not be a waste of time - if there is no life after death, there's no point on bitching about it, go away and enjoy as much as you can!
Pernicious said:
A lot of that I think was covered by what capefeather said. Really, the essence of what you're saying boils down to
which I don't think is necessarily true at all. Conscious activity is very much a spectrum as well, starting at where I am right now, and descending down into restfulness, sleeping, REM sleeping, comas, whatever you call being in the womb, etc. all the way down to being dead as a doornail. You can draw a line anywhere you want to do in there and say, this is what is conscious and this is what isn't, but ultimately it doesn't matter.
The only reason i was talking about the picosecond that you die thing was to illustrate that life and death is not black and white, but rather more of a spectrum- you're right that it most certainly does not matter. Life is a human construct, like time, that helps us wrap our minds around our world, but it definitely doesn't hold any true meaning- I am more alive than a computer, which is more alive than my corpse, but is there any real difference between any of those three objects? One moves more than the other two I guess. To an unbiased outsider, me moving my arm is just like the wind moving it, and it ultimately isn't significant. I guess what I'm saying is, think of it this way- that corpse isnt just the tiniest bit alive; alive people are just the tiniest bit dead. There isn't any real different between the two, but it should help you understand what I'm saying.
Life and Death are fundamentally connected so it's natural that there would be some overlap it such a conversation.
I think that when you die you're pretty much just dead, as in not feeling, thinking, or anything. No outside consciousness or anything like that.
On the other hand, I also believe God will resurrect everyone later, but that's not an afterlife persay. If technology found a way to bring corpses back to life it would not be an "afterlife" either.
And to respond to some of the other posts, there are ways of deciding a boundary for dead/alive. I personally use this:
If there is one living cell with all of your DNA, you are alive.
On the other hand, I also believe God will resurrect everyone later, but that's not an afterlife persay. If technology found a way to bring corpses back to life it would not be an "afterlife" either.
And to respond to some of the other posts, there are ways of deciding a boundary for dead/alive. I personally use this:
If there is one living cell with all of your DNA, you are alive.
I do believe there is an afterlife. Now y'all can believe what you want to, but I do think it would suck if we just ceased to exist after we die. I would like to know some questions that we don't have answers to yet or finding out that our answers to some questions that we thought were right, but they're actually wrong. It's like a movie ending with an awesome cliff hanger or with questions needing to me answered and then not making a sequel to show what happens. I would particular like to know what are those 3 books that the Time Traveler took with him...
I personally believe that there's a heaven and a hell after we die that God made. That's my faith pretty much. Just my faith. I've always felt like there was something "bigger" out there, some presence that made this world. I mean, if our body dies, what happens to our souls? Do they just evaporate, or do they go somewhere else? I personally believe that our souls go somewhere else, and that's either to heaven or hell.
Now given, it depends on if people believe that us humans even have souls to begin with, but I'm not even gonna get into that.
Now given, it depends on if people believe that us humans even have souls to begin with, but I'm not even gonna get into that.
I'm kind of epicurian about this whole thing. I don't believe in any existence after the cessation of brain activity, but I have no evidence that this should be true. I do strongly believe that what comes after is not related to what we do here in this life, so we should each try to live as 'good' of a life as we can without concerning ourselves with what is next. Morality (if such a thing can be said to objectively exist, which would be a ridiculous assertion in my opinion) does not change because something comes after or not, what is right is right and rewards in the afterlife promised for certain behavior do not make that behavior good. I am interested in knowing why people are so concerned with this question, because I don't understand it, for me it could never change anything.
Part of me want to believe that their is sort sort of electric field or higher plain my conciseness goes to after I die. But at the same time I know such notions are just pipe dreams I have in my head to keep my sanity.
I have been thinking about the afterlife, since my dad recently died. Lately, I've been hearing strange noises in my room, and sometimes feel like he's watching over me and trying to communicate with me. It's all probably psychological, but regardless, I don't remember any of this happening before he died.
Here's a video on an NDE that I found particularly powerful. I'm sure there's a scientific explanation for this incident, but it's still eery and interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu1ErDeQ0Zw
Here's a video on an NDE that I found particularly powerful. I'm sure there's a scientific explanation for this incident, but it's still eery and interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu1ErDeQ0Zw
I think what happens to the conscious mind after death is roughly the same as what happens to the music after you plug out the radio, or the traffic across a demolished highway bridge: The hardware is simply unable to support the system any more. It's the same as asking "when snow melts, where does the white go?". The conditions aren't right and the system will disappear.
this is beautiful
i think that what happens to the conscious mind after death is what happens to a computer when you turn it off or what happens to the lightbulb when you turn it off or what happens to a ball when it falls or what happens to a relationship when it ends or what happens to an empire when it breaks or what happens to the world when everything ends
"consciousness is an illusion the brain makes to process outside stimuli"
or we can argue that there is no point in trusting science and then you can be anything you want! and thats kinda cool and tbh i lean on this side because it just doesnt make sense to me that the universe would just BE THERE i mean how did it get in place and everything? it seems that there should be something deeper id like to think, but this is just me making order out of chaos
i guess im afraid of death because experiencing things is SO FUN
anyway its pointless to think of these things!
but seriously when i think about death it seems so epic in the scale of eternity, kinda like imagining living at the beginning of the earth in solitude for a few million years or like swimming around at the bottom of the ocean for the rest of your life and knowing you havent even covered 1% of it or even like drifting in space alone and unable to do anything but being able to see billions and billions and billions of galaxies and being a timeless observer
its really scary but so beautiful
"consciousness is an illusion the brain makes to process outside stimuli"
or we can argue that there is no point in trusting science and then you can be anything you want! and thats kinda cool and tbh i lean on this side because it just doesnt make sense to me that the universe would just BE THERE i mean how did it get in place and everything? it seems that there should be something deeper id like to think, but this is just me making order out of chaos
i guess im afraid of death because experiencing things is SO FUN
anyway its pointless to think of these things!
but seriously when i think about death it seems so epic in the scale of eternity, kinda like imagining living at the beginning of the earth in solitude for a few million years or like swimming around at the bottom of the ocean for the rest of your life and knowing you havent even covered 1% of it or even like drifting in space alone and unable to do anything but being able to see billions and billions and billions of galaxies and being a timeless observer
its really scary but so beautiful
Am I correct in supposing that those of you who do not believe in an afterlife also do not believe in the paranormal? I'm with Einstein; energy does not simply disappear, it just shifts into another form.
I haven't completely distilled my thoughts on the afterlife, despite being almost 30 years old. I just know that something exists, and I think a lot of it has to do with how you live your life. When I watch ghost shows that talk about dark entities being driven out by priests blessing the building, I believe that those exorcisms are only successful because the spirits involved were part of the same belief system while they were alive.
Anyone ever read the book What Dreams May Come? It's quite fascinating. I think if I were to believe in any afterlife, that would be the one I'd feel most comfortable with. It speaks of a higher power (that I am still unsure exists) and even explains what haven, hell, and limbo may be.
I know I'm all over the place; like I said, I am still figuring things out. But I don't consider myself the least bit religious; merely spiritual.
I haven't completely distilled my thoughts on the afterlife, despite being almost 30 years old. I just know that something exists, and I think a lot of it has to do with how you live your life. When I watch ghost shows that talk about dark entities being driven out by priests blessing the building, I believe that those exorcisms are only successful because the spirits involved were part of the same belief system while they were alive.
Anyone ever read the book What Dreams May Come? It's quite fascinating. I think if I were to believe in any afterlife, that would be the one I'd feel most comfortable with. It speaks of a higher power (that I am still unsure exists) and even explains what haven, hell, and limbo may be.
I know I'm all over the place; like I said, I am still figuring things out. But I don't consider myself the least bit religious; merely spiritual.
Conservation of energy is a concept that is centuries old. The Einstein mention is also kind of ironic because general relativity actually does not necessarily have conservation of [mass-]energy as a law (though it has similar consequences). Additionally, if you're talking about a "something" that's lost when you die, it's not really "energy" in the sense you'd have to mean if you wanted to invoke conservation of energy in the first place.
"Paranormal" is also a weird term to invoke. You're pretty much going to be trapped between merely meaning stuff we can't explain (and indeed there are things we wouldn't be able to know even if we had a theory of everything) and meaning stuff that people insist is "evidence" for some concept that they invented (which is pretty much crackpottery). I think many of us are not saying that the afterlife "doesn't exist", but more what Steamroll/Smith/I have been saying: that it's pretty much impossible even to talk about it in a way that makes sense and/or is testable. What's north of the north pole?
"Paranormal" is also a weird term to invoke. You're pretty much going to be trapped between merely meaning stuff we can't explain (and indeed there are things we wouldn't be able to know even if we had a theory of everything) and meaning stuff that people insist is "evidence" for some concept that they invented (which is pretty much crackpottery). I think many of us are not saying that the afterlife "doesn't exist", but more what Steamroll/Smith/I have been saying: that it's pretty much impossible even to talk about it in a way that makes sense and/or is testable. What's north of the north pole?