Linked

TheBlueFiretruck said:
Another extremely valuable poke for a team is Magnezone. The discovery of this Pokemon's uses in Linked goes all to M'joe'ra, and he's made more than one successful set with him as the platform. The original idea was Analytic Sub + Thunderbolt, which had massive damage output and was incredibly difficult to break once Sub was up. After this became predictable, another threat arose, namely Mega Diance.
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Nope, it was magnet pull with hp fire for wrecking ferrothorn back in the days of faketurn ambi and nape cores although that does sound like a good idea if your main purpose for zone isn't breaking ferro.
 
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M'joe'ra said:
Nope, it was magnet pull with hp fire for wrecking ferrothorn back in the days of faketurn ambi and nape cores although that does sound like a good idea if your main purpose for zone isn't breaking ferro.
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Oh right, so you made three viable sets with Zone not two? Lol you tryhard.
Akumeoy said:
And it seems that a counter to choiced Manaphy, Magnezone, and Unaware Clefable exists in specially defensive Quagsire. It avoids the 3HKO from Clefable's Moonblast or anything off of Manaphy (save Energy Ball, but then Manaphy should be laughably easy to force out afterwards), and no Magnezone can touch it. Stored Power Clefable is possible to stall out with Toxic and Recover spam if you get it in fast enough. If you link Earthquake and Scald, it can very narrowly check Mega Diancie from full HP; given that it doesn't need to heal every turn against the Pokemon it answers and it appreciates getting extra damage in to do its job quicker, this is probably its best link.

Is it good for anything else though? I can't say, because I haven't tested it out or looked. But at least in laboratory conditions, it can beat most of the threats in that post.
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I don't think we've tested this at all either, but Unaware is a super strong ability to have. It might be worth looking into, but Ferrothorn is a pretty hard counter, especially with Power Whip in its link like it usually has.

EDIT: A demonstration of why Unaware Clef is good
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pandora-linked-1660283
 
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Akumeoy said:
And it seems that a counter to choiced Manaphy, Magnezone, and Unaware Clefable exists in specially defensive Quagsire. It avoids the 3HKO from Clefable's Moonblast or anything off of Manaphy (save Energy Ball, but then Manaphy should be laughably easy to force out afterwards), and no Magnezone can't touch it. Stored Power Clefable is possible to stall out with Toxic and Recover spam if you get it in fast enough. If you link Earthquake and Scald, it can very narrowly check Mega Diancie from full HP; given that it doesn't need to heal every turn against the Pokemon it answers and it appreciates getting extra damage in to do its job quicker, this is probably its best link.

Is it good for anything else though? I can't say, because I haven't tested it out or looked. But at least in laboratory conditions, it can beat most of the threats in that post.
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I didn't think of unaware quag at all but after just a short glance i instantly thought of amoonguss. It resists or is neutral to its stabs and is immune to toxic while having a 4x effective stab to hit back with, amoonguss does the job of shutting down clefable better than quag due to clear smog and spore spam or toxic spam. Granted quag does shut down mana better than amoonguss but clefable does it even better due to it's ability to setup defenses and recover and possibly sweep while taking surfs from manaphy. Another thing that clefable is able to do that quag can't is beat mega sableye, if you send in a quag against a sableye it gets burned thus limiting it's damage output to about 30% and then proceed to setup calm minds until it either gets to +6 or it gets burned, not to mention being unable to use toxic due to magic bounce. On the other hand, clefable can set up calm minds and not worry about sableye setting up calm minds on it due to unaware and doing anywhere from 58-68% with moonblast. Quag does beat mega diancie as long as it doesn't switch in on a linked moonblast and diamond storm and has at the very least 68% but 80% guarantees that it lives a max roll link. But on the other hand, mangezone can switch in on 2 out of diancie's 3 attacks and then OHKO back with flash cannon. Basically quag is decent but there are other things that do it's job better and more things that completely wall it than the other mons.

TheBlueFiretruck said:
Another extremely valuable poke for a team is Magnezone. The discovery of this Pokemon's uses in Linked goes all to M'joe'ra, and he's made more than one successful set with him as the platform. The original idea was Analytic Sub + Thunderbolt, which had massive damage output and was incredibly difficult to break once Sub was up. After this became predictable, another threat arose, namely Mega Diance. Because of this, Mjoe stuck a Scarf on Zone, seeing that it just barely outspeeds full speed EV Mega Diance. He then linked Thunderbolt + Flash Cannon, which hits most of the metagame with neutral/SE damage, and also OHKO's Diance. Surprisingly, this double STAB combo was more difficult for me to adapt to than even Tail Glow Manaphy in some ways, and it's speed is really obnoxious. Speaking of Mega Diance though, it can also run a very formidable set involving double STAB via Diamond Storm + Moonblast. It's great speed tier paired with Magic Bounce to counter any Prankster shenanigans make for a threatening force that hits really hard. I always make sure to have at least one Steel move, just in case.
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Dual STAB linked attackers are extremely strong, one mon that is no exception is yanmega.
yanmega.gif

Albeit having a touch slower speed of 317 and an alright s.atk of 331. this monster has the highly coveted ability of tinted lens, making all of it's attacks even when resisted, except for 4x resists, do neutral damage at least. Equipped with a choice specs yanmega's damage output skyrockets and is able to break a plethora of strong mons. Calcs insue.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 220-260 (55.8 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 186-219 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(OHKOs the mighty clefable!)

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 180-213 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(OHKOs mega sableye)

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 160-189 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Quag can't switch in but even if it gets in safely all it can do is poison it and then proceed to get KOd the next turn)

Thankfully there are some things that can beat yanmega on the switch, Heatran, chansey and scarf magnezone being some of the prime examples, and a decent part of the metagame can outspeed it and proceed to either seriously damage or OHKO it back, any variant of tail glow manaphy and most scarfers in this case, also rocks exist. But apart from that yanmega destroys most everything in it's path along with most dual stab attackers.

Tl:Dr Quag is outclassed and dual stab attackers are stronk.
 
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Ghoul King said:
Why are you using CosmicLight and not CosmicBoiled? No PP issues, no fear of sub-optimal weather.
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For some reason the set combination was not allowed with Soft-Boiled, or I would've used it a long time ago. I couldn't decipher what the incompatibilities were because the correction pop up was in Spanish lol. The prospect of making Clef even more OP is quite terrifying though. O.o
 
Never mind: it can only get Softboiled in Generation III, vs Unaware being Dream World ie Gen V. So Magic Guard Clefable is good to go with Cosmic Boiled, but not Unaware Clefable. Too bad.
 
M'joe'ra said:
I didn't think of unaware quag at all but after just a short glance i instantly thought of amoonguss. It resists or is neutral to its stabs and is immune to toxic while having a 4x effective stab to hit back with, amoonguss does the job of shutting down clefable better than quag due to clear smog and spore spam or toxic spam. Granted quag does shut down mana better than amoonguss but clefable does it even better due to it's ability to setup defenses and recover and possibly sweep while taking surfs from manaphy. Another thing that clefable is able to do that quag can't is beat mega sableye, if you send in a quag against a sableye it gets burned thus limiting it's damage output to about 30% and then it gets set up on with calm minds further limiting what little offensive strength it has, not to mention being unable to use toxic due to magic bounce. On the other hand, clefable can set up calm minds and not worry about sableye setting up calm minds on it due to unaware and doing anywhere from 58-68% with moonblast. Quag does beat mega diancie as long as it doesn't switch in on a linked moonblast and diamond storm and has at the very least 68% but 80% guarantees that it lives a max roll link. But on the other hand, mangezone can switch in on 2 out of diancie's 3 attacks and then OHKO back with flash cannon. Basically quag is decent but there are other things that do it's job better and more things that completely wall it than the other mons.
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you do realize that quags unaware is unaffected by puny attempts to calm mind.
 
From what I've played and seen, the choice scarf seems to be especially dominant in the meta, as nearly everything loves the addition to their speed since they hit hard enough with dual moves. Also, I shouldshould really test out how defense lowering moves work in a link. It seems to have quite a bit of potential (except on the aforementioned unaware users who will probably laugh t it)
 
Hack_Guy said:
From what I've played and seen, the choice scarf seems to be especially dominant in the meta, as nearly everything loves the addition to their speed since they hit hard enough with dual moves. Also, I shouldshould really test out how defense lowering moves work in a link. It seems to have quite a bit of potential (except on the aforementioned unaware users who will probably laugh t it)
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Scarf zone, zoning everyone out since September 28, 2006.

Relevant:
 
Hack_Guy said:
From what I've played and seen, the choice scarf seems to be especially dominant in the meta, as nearly everything loves the addition to their speed since they hit hard enough with dual moves. Also, I shouldshould really test out how defense lowering moves work in a link. It seems to have quite a bit of potential (except on the aforementioned unaware users who will probably laugh t it)
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Unaware users very much care about their own defenses getting lowered, unless I'm misunderstanding which moves you refer to.
 
Akumeoy said:
Unaware users very much care about their own defenses getting lowered, unless I'm misunderstanding which moves you refer to.
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Unaware doesn't take into account your own defense drops iirc. So anything with unaware can come in and eat up defense lowering moves (leer, screech, metal sound, etc)
 
Hack_Guy said:
Unaware doesn't take into account your own defense drops iirc. So anything with unaware can come in and eat up defense lowering moves (leer, screech, metal sound, etc)
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If this was the case, then defense-boosting Clefable would be useless. And it's not -- from experience, Clefable with boosted defenses is difficult to take down. PS!, Bulbapedia, and the Smog dex also indicate that Unaware ignores both boosts and drops on other Pokemon. It cares about its own stat changes.
 
Akumeoy said:
If this was the case, then defense-boosting Clefable would be useless. And it's not -- from experience, Clefable with boosted defenses is difficult to take down. PS!, Bulbapedia, and the Smog dex also indicate that Unaware ignores both boosts and drops on other Pokemon. It cares about its own stat changes.
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Huh, for the longest time I believed that it was detrimental status drops/increases towards the pokemon attacking/defending that were ignored. Well, the more you know I suppose
 
*Sigh* why does this thread is dead. This metagame is very fun I think.

Anyway

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 Spe
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Protect
- Earthquake

I thought this thing would be useless, but it's surprisingly effective. Substitute + Toxic in one turn means unless you have two attacks linked or sound moves or Infiltrator, there is no way you can break this thing while it can easily Toxic you to death. Basically a stop to things like set up move + attack link.
 
Chopin Alkaninoff said:
*Sigh* why does this thread is dead. This metagame is very fun I think.

Anyway

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 Spe
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Protect
- Earthquake

I thought this thing would be useless, but it's surprisingly effective. Substitute + Toxic in one turn means unless you have two attacks linked or sound moves or Infiltrator, there is no way you can break this thing while it can easily Toxic you to death. Basically a stop to things like set up move + attack link.
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Sub + Roost is a better link. SubToxic Gliscor generally uses Protect to regain HP. Since you do that anyway with Roost, you might as well replace Protect with Roost and with Roost + Sub in the link. Toxic on the link is kind of redundant because you don't have to Poison your opponent multiple times.

But things are going to be hitting you twice in a row. It'll be quite hard to keep on stalling.
 
Protect has an important advantage vs Fake Out + U-turn users, which is quite common. Also Toxic not in the link means you have to be quite unsafe to use Toxic which means it can't beat vs pokes with set up + attack link.

While Sub + Toxic in a link may seem redudant, with the help of Protect, you can safely Toxic the opponent while staying behind sub in case your opponent can only break the sub without actually damaging it.
 
Chopin Alkaninoff said:
Protect has an important advantage vs Fake Out + U-turn users, which is quite common. Also Toxic not in the link means you have to be quite unsafe to use Toxic which means it can't beat vs pokes with set up + attack link.

While Sub + Toxic in a link may seem redudant, with the help of Protect, you can safely Toxic the opponent while staying behind sub in case your opponent can only break the sub without actually damaging it.
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Protect loses its priority when used with Toxic.
 
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but Adaptability users can now nuke you with BOTH of their STABs.
For example:
Knock Off/Crunch then Aqua Jet/Crabhammer on Crawdaunt
Poison Jab then U-Turn/X-Scissor on Mega Beedrill (if I understand correctly, you can hit hard with Poison Jab then pivot out with U-Turn to something so it doesn't have to take a hit, and you hit them twice)
Sludge Wave then Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse Dragalge.

Pokemon can also Link BoltBeam or EdgeQuake for solid coverage that hits hard. Klefki gets both screens up in one turn, or T-Wave + one screen. Choice Band Talonflame can link Brave Bird + Roost to nuke stuff and heal itself back up in one turn with priority.
Also can someone explain to me how Fake Out works? And LO?
 
Fake Out works as normal, but a Link uses the lowest priority in the chain, so if it's paired with a neutral priority move it will move at neutral priority.

Life Orb triggers on each attack separately. That's right, you can kill yourself in five turns now!
 
Azelf @ King's Rock
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Recycle
- Fling
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock/Fire Blast/Psychic

  1. Toxic the opponent
  2. Flinch them to death by repeatedly flinging King's Rock at them, or at least force them to switch out from poison damage.
  3. Stealth Rock discourages switching out, Fire Blast hits Steel-types that can't be toxicked, and Psychic is STAB that happens to hit Poison-types and most Inner Focus users SE.
Note that you shouldn't rely on the flinching alone to kill anything, because it's 30BP with 16 PP. You can use something bulkier but slower if you don't need something against offense; in that case, you can use Jirachi (for which it's more reliable as a total shutdown of anything slower than Iron head + Zen Headbutt).
 
Akumeoy said:
Azelf @ King's Rock
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Recycle
- Fling
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock/Fire Blast/Psychic

  1. Toxic the opponent
  2. Flinch them to death by repeatedly flinging King's Rock at them, or at least force them to switch out from poison damage.
  3. Stealth Rock discourages switching out, Fire Blast hits Steel-types that can't be toxicked, and Psychic is STAB that happens to hit Poison-types and most Inner Focus users SE.
Note that you shouldn't rely on the flinching alone to kill anything, because it's 30BP with 16 PP. You can use something bulkier but slower if you don't need something against offense; in that case, you can use Jirachi (for which it's more reliable as a total shutdown of anything slower than Iron head + Zen Headbutt).
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Brb making ferro-tran core based team
 
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