Linked

[Isa Simple]

Heyo!

I've kept an eye on this meta for a while but haven't really payed too much attention to it or played and what not, so I have a couple of questions.
There is a solid portion of pokemon on the viability rankings that are considered unviable in standard OU, some are easy to understand but a couple stand out to me as interesting.

Firstly, what is Raichu's niche in this meta? What sets do people run?

Also the one I'm most interested in is Ninetales. B+ is pretty sweet. Is this mainly used as a specs wall breaker with dual linked Fire STAB? Or Fire STAB + Solar Beam.
Also does Ninetales' viability make the sun play style more viable? Given that you could have Solar Power Mega Houndoom with Linked Fire Blast and Overheat, or Venusaur linking Growth with and attacking move.

 

[Jajoken]

Heyo!

I've kept an eye on this meta for a while but haven't really payed too much attention to it or played and what not, so I have a couple of questions.
There is a solid portion of pokemon on the viability rankings that are considered unviable in standard OU, some are easy to understand but a couple stand out to me as interesting.

Firstly, what is Raichu's niche in this meta? What sets do people run?

Also the one I'm most interested in is Ninetales. B+ is pretty sweet. Is this mainly used as a specs wall breaker with dual linked Fire STAB? Or Fire STAB + Solar Beam.
Also does Ninetales' viability make the sun play style more viable? Given that you could have Solar Power Mega Houndoom with Linked Fire Blast and Overheat, or Venusaur linking Growth with and attacking move.

I also haven't played much Linked, but I'd guess Raichu has a niche as one of the fastest users of Fake Out, which means a lot more here than it does in OU. Fake Out + Volt Switch is probably the most common set, I'd imagine, maybe with Thunderbolt and HP Ice for the last slots.

Ninetales, I'm not so sure. I could imagine Nasty Plot + Fire Blast/Overheat being pretty good.

 

[Hack_Guy]

Ninetales is the best sun setter in the meta (sun is a very interesting playstyle), and it has a variety of sets it can run. CM + fire Blast, Overheat + Power Swap, Nasty Plot + Fire Blast, etc.

And as Jajoken said, Raichu has a niche as the fastest special FakeTurn user. which is always nice to have.

Also, Chopin Alkaninoff , i'll add the viability rankings into the 2nd post ASAP, thanks for posting the ranking in the thread :]

 

[ScorrchingTheaph]

Question: How would Focus Punch work in terms of priority when linked with another move? I tried a link with Focus Punch + Sky Drop, and the charge had priority, then attack, then sky drop. What would happen with something like Fake Out + Focus Punch, or Prankster Substitute + Focus Punch, and would the order of the moves matter?

 

[Hack_Guy]

Question: How would Focus Punch work in terms of priority when linked with another move? I tried a link with Focus Punch + Sky Drop, and the charge had priority, then attack, then sky drop. What would happen with something like Fake Out + Focus Punch, or Prankster Substitute + Focus Punch, and would the order of the moves matter?

The way focus punch works is that the Charging statement comes at the beginning of the turn regardless, if hit before the link, then you fail to use the move, otherwise focus punch works as normal. The reasoning for this is that the charging statement is a placeholder, which checks if you are hit in that turn

 

[Akumeoy]

Has anyone else tried Trick Room? Being able to use two moves in one turn greatly increases the amount you can get done under it, which means you can do things like set TR and pivot out in one turn, boost and attack, or just get in more damage before the timer runs out.

 

[Martin]

Has anyone tried out putting Double Dance into the first and second moveslots? It sounds kinda terrifying XD

edit: I've just imagined Scarf Breloom:

Breloom @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician / Poison Heal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Focus Punch
- Bullet Seed / Seed Bomb
- Rock Tomb / Stone Edge

Its an interesting thought. It is a free base 150 STAB v.s. anything that isn't Grass-type, and it still dumps on Ferrothorn anyway. Talonflame needs to be careful when it tries to switch in 'cause Rock Tomb, but once its in it dumps all over Breloom.

 

[ScorrchingTheaph]

Has anyone else tried Trick Room? Being able to use two moves in one turn greatly increases the amount you can get done under it, which means you can do things like set TR and pivot out in one turn, boost and attack, or just get in more damage before the timer runs out.

I've seen trick room + memento dusclops, probably w/ eviolite, to set up for Azumarill.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

I've seen trick room + memento dusclops, probably w/ eviolite, to set up for Azumarill.

That's actually me. This strategy works very well I think.

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Trick Room
- Memento
- Protect
- Toxic

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
- Waterfall
- Play Rough
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet

So use Trick Room and Memento. Your Dusclops die, but your opponent gets halved Attack and Special Attack. Then Belly Drum, as you'll take minimal damage if your opponent doesn't switch. Then sweep.

You worry about Talonflame? Aqua Jet outspeeds in Trick Room. You worry about Clefable?

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 139-165 (35.2 - 41.8%) -- 83.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So if added, it will be around 75% to 90% damage total.

If you don't want to sacrifice a poke, you can use this.

Uxie @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Trick Room
- U-turn
- Protect
- Stealth Rock

Uxie is the bulkiest poke that have access to Trick Room and U-turn. It can tank some hits, set up Trick Room and U-turn to safely switch in a sweeper.

Some things I forgot to rank.

Tornadus T: Knock Off + U-turn makes it as annoying as Landorus T, except it has Regenerator instead of Intimidate, makes it can run Life Orb and replace the 20% damage if it switch out. It's very fast and can also fire off a strong Hurricane and Confuse you like Chatter does.

Diggersby: Physical version of Porygon-Z, but with better typing and has priority. Can run Swords Dance and Agility just like Porygon-Z with Nasty Plot and Agility. Also has U-turn to be annoying.

Also,

The suspect will last around a week or so (probably until the OU one ends unless we can come to a decision as to whether or not to unban it). So it would be great if we could see some debate around it

Debate around Aegislash? I think it's not broken. That's why I list it in A+ instead of S. Also building a stally or Balance team without Aegislash is a pain just because Faketurn and Jirachi makes Clefable and other Stall pokes kinda useless. Also things with strong enough power (just like Azumarill above) are able to power through Clefable.

Imo, Stall teams basically needs Aegislash, so unban for me. Its not broken.

 

[Jajoken]

Has anyone else tried Trick Room? Being able to use two moves in one turn greatly increases the amount you can get done under it, which means you can do things like set TR and pivot out in one turn, boost and attack, or just get in more damage before the timer runs out.

I made a post on this topic back when Fake Out was still unlimited, but it still has some decent options, especially as leads, as Fake Out is still prevalent.

I love Trick Room, so I wanted to find some 'mons that could abuse this combo. It looks like Fake Out is really dominant, so here are three sets that beat it, albeit without U-turn, sadly (no Ghost/Inner Focus user learns it and Trick Room).

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 70 Def / 188 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Memento
- (Filler)
- (Filler)

Dusclops is bulky enough to take most hits and setup Trick Room, then proceed to sacrifice itself while crippling the opponent in the meantime. Memento will allow you to safely bring in a setup sweeper, and will often negate any boosts the enemy thinks it can set up on Dusclops. If you're worried about Taunt, Mental Herb Cofagrigus can run the same set with similar levels of bulk. One nice thing about Dusclops, however, is that Frisk can scout the enemy lead's item.

Gourgeist-Super @ Sitrus Berry/Normal Gem
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Explosion
- (Filler)
- (Filler)

Another Frisk-using suicidal Ghost? Gourgeist is a more offensive variant of the above set, with worse bulk and arguably worse typing, but the ability to deal massive damage with Explosion. Sitrus Berry lets you live more hits, but Normal Gem boosts the power of Explosion. Gourgeist is also more effective to keep around before you set up Trick Room and die, as it can throw out Leech Seed and do good priority damage with Shadow Sneak, among other options. Still, it's primary goal is to allow a slow sweeper 5 turns of Trick Room, and possibly kill weak Pokemon not expecting Explosion.

Girafarig @ Sitrus Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Baton Pass
- Future Sight/Psychic
- Calm Mind/Nasty Plot/Hyper Voice

The only Inner Focus user that I can find with a switch move, Girafarig is the only one of these three sets that actually lives when it sets up Trick Room, allowing it to come back and do it again. Baton Pass will always go last, ensuring a safe switch. Girafarig is sadly quite frail, so it can't afford to mix its defensive stats or hold an offensive item/Mental Herb. The last two slots are if you're feeling cheeky -- if you can manage to safely use Future Sight before you Baton Pass out, your TR client will enjoy a bonus chunk of damage when they attack. You could also set up a Calm Mind or Nasty Plot to pass along with TR. If you just want reliable, weak, poorly-covered damage, Psychic and Hyper Voice are always options.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

I made a post on this topic back when Fake Out was still unlimited, but it still has some decent options, especially as leads, as Fake Out is still prevalent.

Tbh, I'm not sure where this rumor came from. Fake Out is NOT limited as far as I (and Hack Guy) can remember, and tbh having a FakeTurn team is sorta unviable. There are plenty of ways to stop it, from Ghost types, to Protect, to Inner Focus users (like Dragonite), to priority from something like Talonflame or Infernape. This is not to say it is a bad playstyle, as it can and will beat many mons, but there are enough ways to check or counter it that it isn't broken.

 

[Jajoken]

Tbh, I'm not sure where this rumor came from. Fake Out is NOT limited as far as I (and Hack Guy) can remember, and tbh having a FakeTurn team is sorta unviable. There are plenty of ways to stop it, from Ghost types, to Protect, to Inner Focus users (like Dragonite), to priority from something like Talonflame or Infernape. This is not to say it is a bad playstyle, as it can and will beat many mons, but there are enough ways to check or counter it that it isn't broken.

I swear someone said it was limited to one per team now, but I realize that's not part of the OP. Huh. Well, even better then -- my post is still just as valid!

 

[Throbulator36]

Tbh, I'm not sure where this rumor came from. Fake Out is NOT limited as far as I (and Hack Guy) can remember, and tbh having a FakeTurn team is sorta unviable. There are plenty of ways to stop it, from Ghost types, to Protect, to Inner Focus users (like Dragonite), to priority from something like Talonflame or Infernape. This is not to say it is a bad playstyle, as it can and will beat many mons, but there are enough ways to check or counter it that it isn't broken.

I distinctly remembered that the first suspect limited fake out to one per team but now that I look through the thread again I can't even find a post that closed the first suspect.

 

[Ghoul King]

You have a very valid point when you talk about protect and fake out becoming centralizing. So I'll make this the first official suspect, protect And fake out finally gonna use the reserved post woop

I'll give it some time and see whether the moves should be banned or not

I did kinda forget about those two abilities whilst creating the post. I suppose then that is isnt worth suspecting fake-turn after all. So for now, the suspect will be closed

I, too, distinctly recall Fake Out being limited at some point, but cannot find the post. These two were what I could find: Suspect started, suspect closed because there are tools for dealing with it, kind of.

 

[TheBlueFiretruck]

I was also searching the thread for some kind of limitation on FakeTurn, but I guess there is none. Even so, I haven't seen AmbiNape cores on any teams as of recent, and I think it's generally accepted that other strategies will get you further. If it becomes a problem in the future, we'll deal with it then.

Getting back on topic then I noticed Hitmonlee still isn't ranked. I talked about it in the viability chat but I guess it never got added. Anyway its main niche is strong double priority in Banded Sucker Punch + Mach Punch. No one knows what to expect out of a Hitmonlee set. so it's usually able to revenge at least one thing before losing surprise factor. and can force switches even after they know what you have. Its weaknesses include Talon (being outsped and easily OHKOd), the fact that Talon can effortlessly switch into it, and that set up + STAB makes Sucker Punch fail, extremely limiting your power and coverage. It requires a pretty hard Talon-counter teammate to play with, but Rhyperior or physically defensive Rotom-W work well. I nominate it for B-

 

[Throbulator36]

I was also searching the thread for some kind of limitation on FakeTurn, but I guess there is none. Even so, I haven't seen AmbiNape cores on any teams as of recent, and I think it's generally accepted that other strategies will get you further. If it becomes a problem in the future, we'll deal with it then.

Getting back on topic then I noticed Hitmonlee still isn't ranked. I talked about it in the viability chat but I guess it never got added. Anyway its main niche is strong double priority in Banded Sucker Punch + Mach Punch. No one knows what to expect out of a Hitmonlee set. so it's usually able to revenge at least one thing before losing surprise factor. and can force switches even after they know what you have. Its weaknesses include Talon (being outsped and easily OHKOd), the fact that Talon can effortlessly switch into it, and that set up + STAB makes Sucker Punch fail, extremely limiting your power and coverage. It requires a pretty hard Talon-counter teammate to play with, but Rhyperior or physically defensive Rotom-W work well. I nominate it for B-

Hitmonlee @ Normal Gem
Unburden
-Sucker Punch
-Mach Punch
-Fake Out
-filler

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

I was also searching the thread for some kind of limitation on FakeTurn, but I guess there is none. Even so, I haven't seen AmbiNape cores on any teams as of recent, and I think it's generally accepted that other strategies will get you further. If it becomes a problem in the future, we'll deal with it then.

Getting back on topic then I noticed Hitmonlee still isn't ranked. I talked about it in the viability chat but I guess it never got added. Anyway its main niche is strong double priority in Banded Sucker Punch + Mach Punch. No one knows what to expect out of a Hitmonlee set. so it's usually able to revenge at least one thing before losing surprise factor. and can force switches even after they know what you have. Its weaknesses include Talon (being outsped and easily OHKOd), the fact that Talon can effortlessly switch into it, and that set up + STAB makes Sucker Punch fail, extremely limiting your power and coverage. It requires a pretty hard Talon-counter teammate to play with, but Rhyperior or physically defensive Rotom-W work well. I nominate it for B-

I kinda think it's not a good idea to Choice a Sucker Punch, even if you link with another move. That Unburden Fake Out + dual priority seems kinda better because you can outspeed Talonflame with Unburden + dual priority.

Also it's not just Gliscor who can annoy with Substitute. This thing also exist.

Whimsicott @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Cotton Guard
- U-turn/Toxic

If you are a sadist and likes to annoy people, use this. This work very similar to Subtoxic Gliscor, but with Leech Seed instead of status. Also this.

Banette @ Banettite
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Confuse Ray
- Destiny Bond
- Protect/Pain Split/Shadow Claw

 

[ScorrchingTheaph]

Here's a set for you guys: Resttalk Tornadus
I don't think anyone else uses it... yet.

Tornadus (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 176 HP / 80 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Air Slash
- Heat Wave

Most of the time, you spam Rest+Sleep Talk, and hope for a little luck. Prankster allows Tornadus to outspeed anything without priority. Rest means no status, and somewhat constant HP recovery. Specs gives Tornadus a bit of a boost, but can be a problem if you're locked in at full HP and wake up. Probably can be swapped for Life Orb if you want. EVs are up to you, I prefer to use all SpA and a bit of all-around bulk. Air Slash and Heat Wave can be swapped for any special attacking move. I prefer Air Slash for STAB, Heat Wave for coverage. It's a good switch-in into rocks if it's a safe switch-in, because taking rocks damage allows the use of rest right away. You could probably make a similar set for Thundurus if you wanted.
Weaknesses: All-out attackers, Clefable, Sleep Talk choosing Rest (every single damn time).

Replays: (yeah, yeah, some of my other sets suck, but I'm still relatively new to this)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pandora-linkedubers-2017820 (Aegislash testing)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pandora-linked-2020485 Great counter to fake-turn

EDIT: Maybe viable?

 

[Sebberball]

If I may say, Crocune is jesus, linking calm mind and scald together are AMAZING!!

Calm Scald (yay names) is like Arceus made it himself, having a pseudo crochargebeam, it can make itself, effectively more powerful and more defensive, allowing for burns and stat raises, I've been making s stall team for linked, and I gotta say, stall is an amazing playstyle in Linked, which is coming from and offensive player like me... Flies or, Meag sableye and my Bae Suicune are better now when battling.







Was this good, was it smart?

 

[Akumeoy]

If I may say, Crocune is jesus, linking calm mind and scald together are AMAZING!!

Calm Scald (yay names) is like Arceus made it himself, having a pseudo crochargebeam, it can make itself, effectively more powerful and more defensive, allowing for burns and stat raises, I've been making s stall team for linked, and I gotta say, stall is an amazing playstyle in Linked, which is coming from and offensive player like me... Flies or, Meag sableye and my Bae Suicune are better now when battling.







Was this good, was it smart?

I'd go with Scald Mind myself.

Has it been having problems with needing to take two hits at once?

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

If I may say, Crocune is jesus, linking calm mind and scald together are AMAZING!!

Calm Scald (yay names) is like Arceus made it himself, having a pseudo crochargebeam, it can make itself, effectively more powerful and more defensive, allowing for burns and stat raises, I've been making s stall team for linked, and I gotta say, stall is an amazing playstyle in Linked, which is coming from and offensive player like me... Flies or, Meag sableye and my Bae Suicune are better now when battling.







Was this good, was it smart?

The only problem with CroCune is that it is basically demolished by FakeTurn, which despite having ways to beat it is still a very viable playstyle, and one of the best at that. Plus, it is 2HKOed by Talonflame:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird (180 BP cuz BB+AA) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 231-273 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

If I may say, Crocune is jesus, linking calm mind and scald together are AMAZING!!

Calm Scald (yay names) is like Arceus made it himself, having a pseudo crochargebeam, it can make itself, effectively more powerful and more defensive, allowing for burns and stat raises, I've been making s stall team for linked, and I gotta say, stall is an amazing playstyle in Linked, which is coming from and offensive player like me... Flies or, Meag sableye and my Bae Suicune are better now when battling.







Was this good, was it smart?

Stall is amazing in Linked? That's actually... the first time I heard about that. Might be interesting.

What pokes or sets did you use? I might have to change the viability rankings for Stall pokes because most of them are in C rank (Mega Sableye, Chansey, Hippowdon, Cresselia, Mega Latias are in C, forgot to rank Mandibuzz and Umbreon).

Edit: also Hack Guy, can we suspect Fake Out to one per team? Making the opponent can't move at all is kinda unfair. I know it's handleable but not every member of pokes carry Protect, especially for Stall teams. Its very restricting to make a Stall team because of it.

 

[SCF]

Question. Does Me first steal their link or just their first move? Because I can see some crazy crap with that if it is the whole link. (I would assume only the first move, but I am just curious)

 

[Hack_Guy]

Stall is amazing in Linked? That's actually... the first time I heard about that. Might be interesting.

What pokes or sets did you use? I might have to change the viability rankings for Stall pokes because most of them are in C rank (Mega Sableye, Chansey, Hippowdon, Cresselia, Mega Latias are in C, forgot to rank Mandibuzz and Umbreon).

Edit: also Hack Guy, can we suspect Fake Out to one per team? Making the opponent can't move at all is kinda unfair. I know it's handleable but not every member of pokes carry Protect, especially for Stall teams. Its very restricting to make a Stall team because of it.

About suspecting Fake Out to one per team, there's already an aegis suspect going on, so we'll wait till that ends before thinking about suspecting FakeTurn. And I suppose stall would be viable in Linked, just that it hasn't been explored yet

 

[M'joe'ra]

Here's a set for you guys: Resttalk Tornadus
I don't think anyone else uses it... yet.

Tornadus (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 176 HP / 80 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Air Slash
- Heat Wave

Most of the time, you spam Rest+Sleep Talk, and hope for a little luck. Prankster allows Tornadus to outspeed anything without priority. Rest means no status, and somewhat constant HP recovery. Specs gives Tornadus a bit of a boost, but can be a problem if you're locked in at full HP and wake up. Probably can be swapped for Life Orb if you want. EVs are up to you, I prefer to use all SpA and a bit of all-around bulk. Air Slash and Heat Wave can be swapped for any special attacking move. I prefer Air Slash for STAB, Heat Wave for coverage. It's a good switch-in into rocks if it's a safe switch-in, because taking rocks damage allows the use of rest right away. You could probably make a similar set for Thundurus if you wanted.



Weaknesses: All-out attackers, Clefable, Sleep Talk choosing Rest (every single damn time).

Replays: (yeah, yeah, some of my other sets suck, but I'm still relatively new to this)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pandora-linkedubers-2017820 (Aegislash testing)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pandora-linked-2020485 Great counter to fake-turn

EDIT: Maybe viable?

Nice set ScorrchingTheaph! One thing that I think this set would be able to do is hard counter amoonguss -one of the most annoying defensive threats in the tier- by being able to come in on a spore or a toxic and then either take it out with air slash or deal chip damage to other threats. If i were to do anything with this set I would change it to look something like this.

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sleep Talk
- Hurricane/Air slash
- Heat Wave
- Focus Blast

Albeit loosing out on full recovery and status healing, this set allows Tornadus to deal more damage while not being locked into one move(link) while still being able to sleep talk, regain hp via regenerator and be faster. On this set you can also do damage to heatran and rock types via focus blast unlike heat wave.

Another thing I want to talk about in this post -Because screw double posting- Is a rise in rank for Mega Sableye from C rank to B+ or A rank.

Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp/toxic
- Dark Pulse

This set is probably sableye's best one to use, being able to beat faketurn with ghost type + will-o-wisp. Prankster before mega evolving allows you to get up a quick calm mind or burn a physical attacker before it can even touch you -barring talon but almost everything dies to talon anyways- Dark pulse was put on this set because of its ability to deal out very nice stab damage without immunities especially after +6. The only slash that I put on this set is toxic which allows you to beat or at least put a timer on the ever present clefable. Some of the other things this mon can run are foul play, fake out, shadow ball, knock off, and taunt, allowing it to be an effective utility tool with whatever move you need.

-I know there were probably grammar errors but I really don't care-