(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

I’m cool with going back to the gyms as long as GF learns what was good with the island challenges and carries that forward into the future gyms. That’s really my main complaint for Pokémon, so often GF learns nothing and repeats the same mistakes every time, or starts over completely. Steady incremental improvements would seem to be a basic way of developing a series, but they just don’t.
 

Pikachu315111

JAPE Judge!
is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
I’m cool with going back to the gyms as long as GF learns what was good with the island challenges and carries that forward into the future gyms. That’s really my main complaint for Pokémon, so often GF learns nothing and repeats the same mistakes every time, or starts over completely. Steady incremental improvements would seem to be a basic way of developing a series, but they just don’t.
While there's stuff from the Island Challenge I'll like to see carried over to Gyms, what is it specifically you're referring to?

1. Gym Leaders are actual characters. While I found some of the Captains superficial to the Trials, I do like that they exist outside of the Trail as a character on their own and you had some characterization moments with them. You even got to visit their homes and see how their homelife and family are like.
2. Totem-like Battle. For the Gym challenge itself I would like to see the Gym Leader employ more strategy. While they probably won't have SOS Battles they can still attempt to set-up a strategy, use more items than just potions, and have team synergy. Also wouldn't mind if the Gym Leader could find a way to power-up their Pokemon like a Totem Pokemon (or Fused Lusamine did with her Pokemon).
 
Honestly I hate them using those full restores, TBH I almost KO the Pokemon, and Bam full restore, it can mean the difference between you winning or losing the battle sometimes
 
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Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
So let's talk about why Lillie leaving at the end of SM is a fantastic and sensible decision but why it was removed for USM, despite it drastically weakening her character arc even further like virtually every change in USM.

Lillie's growth is largely characterized by the player's progress throughout the story, which inspires her to attempt to grow herself. The initial meeting (particularly in SM) is characterized by Lillie being grateful to the player for helping Nebby but definitely not particularly impressed or trusting of them. She dodges answering the question of who she is and is surprised (depending on how you interpret her facial expression) when the starter Pokemon accepts the player.

She's then put into a tutoring role of sorts but this is quickly abandoned as the player shows that they're quite capable in the trainer's school, meaning Lillie's services as a tutor aren't really needed. She quickly adapts into the role of guide, but even that's quickly thrown out the window as Hau and the island challenge get the player character on the right track without need of her services.

At this point Lillie's role has been completely lost, and the game acknowledges that and has her become literally lost, shoving the player and Lillie pretty much alone into a situation where they no longer have a preset relationship to fall back on, forcing a new relationship to be forged.
While the first time the player and Lillie met, Lillie could have diminished the player's help due to Tapu Koko's aid, this second time the player is doing something Lillie can't and very much wishes that she could do. From this point forward, Lillie's trailing behind the player in a mentorship sense (although she does still have better geographical knowledge than the player character).

This kind of interaction plays out again and again in SM - the player is constantly helping Lillie because (at least in regards to the story) they want to. There's no looming threat that helping Lillie out happens to coincide with. Helping Lillie get back her mother is something entirely for the sake of Lillie herself. The player has no particular reason to want to help Lusamine for the sake of Lusamine, it's all because of Lillie.

Lillie's very aware that she's constantly relying on the player for help in SM and that she's being selfish. In both games, she explicitly tries to be more like the player after the Aether raid section with her "Z powered form". In SM, this gets to culminate her in her calling on the legendary Pokemon of Alola to help her (successfully) save her mother.

This gets to go into the nice little wrap up that we all probably know. Lillie takes her mother to Kanto to get her help and to become a trainer herself. In many ways this is actually a fantastic mirror to the player character both in SM and a couple other games (XY and RSE) where they themselves move to a new region and become a trainer. It's bittersweet if the player liked Lillie, but it completely wraps up her character arc with a good kind of uncertainty - there's a question of how exactly she's going to grow but there's no question that she will, since that's the character that we've seen all game.

And then USM takes it and throws it in a garbage bin.

The change is subtle but present from very early on. There's a third focus for the game to hold on to, the Necrozma plot, and something needs to be taken away from with either the island challenge or the character relationships. Since the island challenge is more a vehicle for the plot than plot itself, Necrozma's story takes an axe to the character relationship story of SM and the first and biggest casualty is Lillie. Pretty much immediately there's something different about Lillie's interactions with the player. She's more open and less suspicious. Let's compare her response to being asked either "who are you" or "are you the Kahuna" after the player saves Nebby.

SM: Regardless of choice: "I think this stone must belong to you."
USM: Regardless of choice: "I'm...I'm Lillie. And I suppose...this stone must belong to you."

In SM she's dodging, in USM she's way more open. Honestly this makes sense when you look at the different motivations behind Lusamine - with Necrozma to focus on rather than her waning sanity due to Nihilego it results in a somewhat different Lillie. Another, more obvious example is Lillie's interaction with Gladion after they arrive on Poni Island.

SM: "But...but when you took Null and left Aether Paradise two years ago... you left me alone with Mother! She was so bad after you left! If I hadn't had Wicke with me..."
USM: "I'm glad that I finally know why you left. And that you were trying to help Mother and Father. But if you'd just told me that back then..."

Both of them are definitely a rebuke to Gladion, but the first one is definitely more indicative of a pretty shitty home life. Lillie's different in USM and in a way that lends itself far less to her leaning on the player later. Child abuse is certainly bad, but it does lend itself to making a more compelling Lillie.

But to jump back, the focus on and bonding time with Lillie gets darkened quite literally at the start of the game. The random darkness (which still makes no sense what) casts a metaphorical shadow on the player's tutorial with Lillie, giving the player reason to wonder what was up with that rather than having nothing to distract from Lillie. She's less of a focus and more of a vehicle now.

A similar thing happens when finding Nebby. Instead of being a moment alone for the player and Lillie to start making a new relationship, the focus shifts to the Ultra Recon Squad, bearers of the Necrozma Plot Axe. They take up the majority of the player's plot attention, shoving Lillie unceremoniously to the background. Lillie getting shoved to the background happens a lot in USM, with the most blatant example being the Exeggutor island trip.

To finish cutting the Lillie and player bond, Necrozma itself grabs the Necrozma Plot Axe and cuts apart the family story to turn it into the 'Necrozma is going to eat the light of the world if you don't punch it really really hard' plot train. There might still be some level of companionship with Lillie due to her tagging along for some of Poni Island, but she's not the driving force behind why the player is doing things. The player isn't invested in Lillie, and in return Lillie has no particular reason to be as invested in being like the player character.

To cut the analysis of Lillie short, the new plot provides no reason for Lillie to go to Kanto and become a trainer there to parallel the player character. Lusamine is ok (kind of), Gladion leaves because lol i dunno gotta have somebody leave since it happened in SM, and so Lillie can go and become a trainer in Alola offscreen and stagnate. It's just a shame that the Necrozma plot that got shoved in mangled Lillie alongside Lusamine, and that's what annoys me.
 
Mother of ongoing ranting posts
You do realize Lillie's main role is healing your Pokemon during certain parts of the story so you don't have to go all the way back to a Pokemon center right Merritt
 

Pikachu315111

JAPE Judge!
is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
Mother of ongoing ranting posts
You do realize Lillie's main role is healing your Pokemon during certain parts of the story so you don't have to go all the way back to a Pokemon center right Merritt
I wouldn't say that's her main role, just an additional benefit she provided whenever she was with you. Lillie's role in the game is meant to be a driving force in the plot. In SM, the story was actually her story, the player is just someone we witness the events of the story play out through as well as providing Lillie the encouragement and "muscle" which she needs to achieve her goals. Without Lillie there would be no story, or at least the story would be different and possibly be unsolvable by the player.

And that's the problem with USUM. This is Lillie's story but she was pushed aside and replaced by... nothing. This certainly isn't the Ultra Recon Squad's story with how few time they appear and mostly meaningless many of their scenes are. It's not Necrozma as its the "big bad" behind the scenes doing nothing until Lillie plays her part in awakening Solgaleo/Lunala. You're just going through the motions without as strong as a motivation as you had in SM. Lillie is never in danger & Lusamine is doing what she thinks is right and protecting Alola instead of being harmfully selfish.

And instead of Lillie standing up for herself and taking the steps to improve herself by going to Kanto to help her mother & become a trainer in her own right, instead she has an off screen conversation with her mildly injured mother where she forgave her and all that character growth hits a dead end. Post game (after the Rainbow Rocket episode where she also did nothing but infact was held hostage at one point) all she does is stand in Kukui's house asking if the player would be her partner in the Battle Tree, that's it. And she's not that great of a Battle Tree partner either.

Point is, they took a character who had a fulfilling development arc and threw it out to wedge in a completely different plot which made things feel bloated and out of focus.
 
Well it sure seems like you thought a lot but the main role is really taking care of the legendary and helping the trainer as far as I can see also the fact that that was one long ranting post merrit made
 
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Pikachu315111

JAPE Judge!
is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
Well it sure seems like you thought a lot but theain role is really taking care of the legendary and helping the trainer as far as I can see also the fact that that was one long ranting post merrit made
Well I personally like getting into a character's story, motivation, and development. In SM she has a lot going on with her even if she doesn't show it, which was a point of her character as she took it upon herself to help Nebby, both because she's a kind and caring person as well as probably feeling guilty what her mother did to it. There's plenty of hints Lusamine abused her, most likely emotionally and mentally, which is probably why she acts very shy and self reserved when you meet her and travelling across the first few islands. Seeing the player take on all challenges thrown at them (rescuing Nebby, the Island Challenge, facing Team Skull) as well as the other characters like Hau, the Captains, and Kahuna you see her becoming encouraged and opening up (note all the scenes where we flash to Lillie just watching on or when she was imitating the player doing a Z-Move). Slowly the probably emotional and mental manipulation Lusamine used on Lillie to keep her in "check" are undone, finally culminating in her changing to her "Z-Form" clothes, helping awaken Nebby, and travelling to Ultra Space to tell her mother off. And though the player was needed to defeat Lusamine, Lillie did her part in saving her mother by caring for Nebby who then became the mascot Legendary which took them into and out of Ultra Space and used its powers to un-fuse Lusamine and the Nihilego before they attacked Lillie.
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
:(

tl;dr I liked lillie as a character in sm and shoving necrozma into usm's plot weakened lillie as a character to the point that the good ending of sm no longer made as much sense, while the alternative used in usm only weakened her character further.
 
Not true dude please stop putting other people down for doing what they want. If you don't want to read it no one's making you. But don't be a dick about it.
You know that is being a jerk
A lot of people won't want to read a post that long
Sure most people mind but a lot would rather not read it
I am not putting anyone down so don't be a jerk and call people names altissimo
If you want to call people names go to the firebot development lab
 
A lot of people won't want to read a post that long
I suspect you haven't been around OI long.

Well not suspect, I know it.

That sort of post is well welcome here, and well appreciated. You'd find out if you bothered that the most frequent and appreciated posters of this section do tend to post huge walls of texts that are detailed and informative (including mine when I bother to).

While maybe rude, Alti is perfectly right, you shouldn't splat your own opinion on others.
 
Uh you guys just don't quit do you
There are still a lot of people who will just scroll past it because of the length and all of it going on about a small point
And obviously I wasn't splatting anything on anyone
 
USUM's story had potential, but the writers either needed more time or more experience (quite possibly both) to actually reach that potential. I wouldn't have minded more run-ins with the URS, especially if they demonstrated more about them and less exposition for the plot. Give us less "tell" and more "show" in the future. That's like storytelling 101.
 
I think Sun and Moon has the weaker story because it feels like Lillie is pushing you to do things instead of you having a reason to do them.

You could remove the whole "go to Ultra Space and defeat Lusamine" section... and the story would pretty much unfold the same way anyways. There's no reason for one to defeat Lusamine again besides Black Hole Sue insisting you to do so - the Lusamine threat was over the second she entered the Wormhole (with no implication she would have wanted to do anything else than staying there with the Nihilego).

As generic as the Ultra games' plot is, at least it gives you some motivation. Sure, it removes the only moment in the whole game the player can sympathize with Lillie... but it's compensated somewhat.

The whole problem here is... well, in case I did not emphasize it enough, Lillie. Between her facepalm-worthy innocence, some ship teasing and her initially shy personality she comes out as a forced character (she screams "LIKE ME!" instead of being actually likeable); she's a good walking Pokémon Center... and that's it. Really, the more I think of it, the less I wonder why Nebby constantly escapes from the bag and takes an instant liking on the player. Thank Rayquaza for the mean dialogue options.
 
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Except it isn't as nihilego could come back in another ultra wormhole when one opens up
But the chance of that happening is pretty limited because game freak is pretty predictable on that stuff, so I totally agree with you that it was over Siggu
I mean why would they make another UW appear just to force you to face lusamine when they can make it to where you have to follow her (which they totally repeated in the ultra games to make it possible to get it out on the market faster)
 
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Feared Pokemon: I've never had a problem with Kingdra, but I have another Water-type I have an issue with: Milotic. Now admittedly this was more due to a bad experience when I wasn't that good of a player: in RSE there's a female Ace Trainer named Jennifer on Route 120 with a sole Milotic. My best trained Pokemon was Blaziken, so you can imagine how that battle went. It came down to my Wobbufett having to use Destiny Bond to take it down. She almost team wiped me. After that I don't recall having problems with Milotics, don't remember having an issue with Wallace's or Lusamine's. But due to a lone one almost wiping me after having just won a Badge I get a bit of a twitch whenever one appears. Though I got my revenge eventually, Jennifer's Milotic felt the full force of my Mega Sceptile in Alpha Sapphire... I'M NOT BITTER! *eye twitch*
That Milotic was a pain for that time of the game, right after 6th Gym in a Route where's always raining that insanely boosts it's Water STAB. I'm not sure if it had Recover or the Ace Trainer had a Full Restore, but anyway it was definetly overpowered, in fact they removed Milotic in Emerald and replaced it with a Sableye.
 

Pikachu315111

JAPE Judge!
is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
Alright everyone, calm down.

Yeah and a lot of people aren't gonna want to read all that lol
On the contrary, if you have the free time to surf around on Smogon's OI than you probably have the time to read a lengthy post. And this isn't even the longest post I've seen, and it's not just a wall of text so much easier to digest (coming from someone who writes long posts and sometimes they are walls of text).

Merritt just had a lot of points they wanted to touch upon. And it's also alright if you don't want to read all of it. But they didn't waste their time writing it because, as long as they illustrate their point, anyone reading it and have it catch their interest will read it through. And even if you don't want to read all of it yet know what they're talking about you can get a basic understanding of it with a quick skim or reading the first few/ending paragraphs. Or you can just wait for other responses to it if you'll like a shorter read.

USUM's story had potential, but the writers either needed more time or more experience (quite possibly both) to actually reach that potential. I wouldn't have minded more run-ins with the URS, especially if they demonstrated more about them and less exposition for the plot. Give us less "tell" and more "show" in the future. That's like storytelling 101.
The story had potential... but not in the way they did it. For the most part SM's story was tight due to the Island Challenge making the journey around the island's linear. SM already didn't have a lot of room, trying to smoosh an entire other plotline in only complicates things. No, USUM had to do one of two things:

1. Be a sequel. You know what, the Ultra Recon Squad's mission to stop Necrozma does make for a good plot... but it has to be its own plot. And really the only way to do that would have been making USUM a sequel. As shown with B2W2, there's a LOT of potential in what you can do with a sequel by not only having a completely new story but also progressing character's stories or and even what's going on with the region. I could come up with whole scenarios but I don't want to spend too much time on one point.

2. Play with this being an alternate timeline. USUM is just SM but at some point the Ultra Recon Squad appeared which slightly changes things and shifts the story focus. At that point you might as well just go all the way with the idea of this being an alternate timeline by having different "what if's". Like what if instead of Gladion running away with Silvally it was Lillie instead, leaving Gladion having to endure Lusamine and later saving Nebby. What if instead of Team Skull working for the Aether Foundation they're instead working against them. What if instead of Hau admiring Hala and excited to go on the Island Challenge he resents both believing are responsible for chasing his father off which he could have had a better relationship with. And then there's these Ultra Recon Squad people running around.

Or, if you did want to make a "definitive" edition, only make a third version. B2W2 had a pretty good reason to be two versions instead of a single third version. Emerald and Platinum are the "ultra" version of the Gen III and IV games, respectively, because they not only took what was in both games and combined them together but added on top of it. USUM is using both its hands to re-write Sun's and Moon's story and making sure they are parallel in content but not adding that much more.

Hey Pikachu315111 maybe go back and catch an electric type and train it up the next time you play Ruby or Sapphire beore doing that battle
Well I know better know. I didn't mention it but before Gen IV I wasn't that great of a player. Yes, I was that kid who pretty much trained his Starter and filled his party with any other Pokemon that just so happened to be higher level than one I had in my party. Only reason I had Wobbuffet on my team because I saw how useful its Destiny Bond as an emergency "sacrifice win" move. But as I said in my story, when it came to battling that trainer again in ORAS I not only had a much better party but my Starter was Sceptile.
 
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Alright everyone, calm down.



On the contrary, if you have the free time to surf around on Smogon's OI than you probably have the time to read a lengthy post. And this isn't even the longest post I've seen, and it's not just a wall of text so much easier to digest (coming from someone who writes long posts and sometimes they are walls of text).

Merritt just had a lot of points they wanted to touch upon. And it's also alright if you don't want to read all of it. But they didn't waste their time writing it because, as long as they illustrate their point, anyone reading it and have it catch their interest will read it through. And even if you don't want to read all of it yet know what they're talking about you can get a basic understanding of it with a quick skim or reading the first few/ending paragraphs. Or you can just wait for other responses to it if you'll like a shorter read.



The story had potential... but not in the way they did it. For the most part SM's story was tight due to the Island Challenge making the journey around the island's linear. SM already didn't have a lot of room, trying to smoosh an entire other plotline in only complicates things. No, USUM had to do one of two things:

1. Be a sequel. You know what, the Ultra Recon Squad's mission to stop Necrozma does make for a good plot... but it has to be its own plot. And really the only way to do that would have been making USUM a sequel. As shown with B2W2, there's a LOT of potential in what you can do with a sequel by not only having a completely new story but also progressing character's stories or and even what's going on with the region. I could come up with whole scenarios but I don't want to spend too much time on one point.

2. Play with this being an alternate timeline. USUM is just SM but at some point the Ultra Recon Squad appeared which slightly changes things and shifts the story focus. At that point you might as well just go all the way with the idea of this being an alternate timeline by having different "what if's". Like what if instead of Gladion running away with Silvally it was Lillie instead, leaving Gladion having to endure Lusamine and later saving Nebby. What if instead of Team Skull working for the Aether Foundation they're instead working against them. What if instead of Hau admiring Hala and excited to go on the Island Challenge he resents both believing are responsible for chasing his father off which he could have had a better relationship with. And then there's these Ultra Recon Squad people running around.

Or, if you did want to make a "definitive" edition, only make a third version. B2W2 had a pretty good reason to be two versions instead of a single third version. Emerald and Platinum are the "ultra" version of the Gen III and IV games, respectively, because they not only took what was in both games and combined them together but added on top of it. USUM is using both its hands to re-write Sun's and Moon's story and making sure they are parallel in content but not adding that much more.



Well I know better know. I didn't mention it but before Gen IV I wasn't that great of a player. Yes, I was that kid who pretty much trained his Starter and filled his party with any other Pokemon that just so happened to be higher level than one I had in my party. Only reason I had Wobbuffet on my team because I saw how useful its Destiny Bond as an emergency "sacrifice win" move. But as I said in my story, when it came to battling that trainer again in ORAS I not only had a much better party but my Starter was Sceptile.
I never said the story had potential in the way it was actually written. :P There are interesting gems that could have made a good story, but cramming it into 95% the same story and sets as the Sun and Moon games was a poor choice. As nice as the side quests were, I would have happily sacrificed those to make the main story better. It is a little annoying that they had these nuggets of interesting ideas but didn't really do much with them in the end.
 

Karxrida

Unforgettable
is a Community Contributor
The game protags are not 10.

They have never been 10. The only confirmed ages are 11 and 12, and some protags look like teenagers.

You do not need to be 10 to be a trainer. Not only is this never stated in the games, you can fight friggin toddlers in a couple.

I hate it when people perpetuate the 10-year-old thing.
 

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