(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

The problem with wanting every Pokémon to have some sort of unique mechanic is that it causes yet another move/ability/item bloat.

Exactly. Can't have a cake and eat it too. We just had a Move Dexit (RIP Return), so what is it? Do we have too many moves or not enough? Are certain moves too redundant or are we tired of seeing the exact same moves on multiple mons?

A signature move every once in a while is fine, but when you get cases like Grimmsnarl getting Spirit Break, the only physical Fairy-type move that isn't Play Rough, while Zamazenta and Galarian Rapidash gotta use that silly move for STAB, I call shenanigans.

A LOT of signature moves should've been distributed a long time ago and I'm going to point specifically at Volt Tackle for a prime example of what I mean. Ash's Pikachu doesn't even have it anymore for crying out loud!!!

 

[R_N]

The problem with wanting every Pokémon to have some sort of unique mechanic is that it causes yet another move/ability/item bloat.

my sizzling hot take on item bloat:
"Item Bloat" is only an issue when it comes to evolution (collect these ONE MILLION ITEMS to evolve. when you will get them? who knowsssss~~~~) and organization (which varies game to game and is extremely lacking). Yeah they could remove a number of battle items that only serve niche uses but them being there doesn't actually hurt anything either. Basically there being like 17 kind of usless very niche battle items isn't really an issue, but 17 Silvally Memories is an issue becaues they'res omething you're expected to swap in & out of and they keep getting put into the middle and then the end of a bag when they could be consolidated into one key item ala the Rotom Catalog. Even if there were 100 less items that's still going to be an issue. Likewise have one million type boosting items or legendary held items as you want, I just want them in separate bag pockets so I can shuffle them in/out while looking for my trade evolution items. In contrast I see very few people complain (& yes im sure i'll get a litany of people going actually i dont like those but you cant deny you dont see as much complaints about them!) about the various vendor trash items and full heal expys and I think a lot of that is because they have their own, much smaller, sections in the bag.

"Ability Bloat" is, likewise, not an issue at all. Again there's some worthless ones we could probably excise (light metal, heavy metal...) but its just...there being a bunch of them doesnt matter to anything. Implementation is likely fairly static at this point and while it is silly that there's multiple abilities that do the exact same thing thats a separate issue. You're not swaping abilities in & out on a whim, pokemon only have at most 3 and they are pre-set.

I would be surprised if we ever get a proper "abilitexit" or "itexit", to put it another way. There were some of both that got left behind but that's more due to their attached pokemon not being around (like the razor fang). And there's a bunch of new stuff specific to Galar that'll obviously not return. But I mean completely removed, long standing items gone entirely, purposefully like moves were and with no plans to ever bring them back. Even megas will probably come back eventually bringing their stones with them, but something like comet punch probably never will.

"Move Bloat" I can at least see being an issue again at somepoint. Move culling was a thing that happened this generation, after all. And moves, unlike items & abilities, likely require far more effort to do.
But also I think if they really cared about this, and it wasn't just caused by other issues compounding on top of everything, they probably wouldn't have made another like what 40 signature moves and then add another like 30 moves in DLC. I also think they would have cut way more moves in the first place, to clear the deck for future plans.
Basically the answer here should be remove more moves and create fewer moves. But they did neither despite it being a good a point as any to make that decision, and likely would have been a far less harsh decision that dexit was to begin with.



Actually having written it out like that, the move decision might've partially (gen 7 did a lot of signature moves too) been made with dexit in mind? If there's more signature moves than if those Pokemon don't show up they can punt having to make new animations for a while. I guess we'll see what happens in gen 9, since I imagine they'll just reuse all these animations for whatever is left in gen 8.

 

[Worldie]

Being allowed to just transfer the moves removed from pokemons movepool is a coward move. Either remove it entirely or dont

Thing is, tecnically those are never legal in the official competitive format. So why would they care.

In fact, you *have* to remove them if you want to make old pokemon legal in gen 8.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

my sizzling hot take on item bloat:
"Item Bloat" is only an issue when it comes to evolution (collect these ONE MILLION ITEMS to evolve. when you will get them? who knowsssss~~~~) and organization (which varies game to game and is extremely lacking). Yeah they could remove a number of battle items that only serve niche uses but them being there doesn't actually hurt anything either. Basically there being like 17 kind of usless very niche battle items isn't really an issue, but 17 Silvally Memories is an issue becaues they'res omething you're expected to swap in & out of and they keep getting put into the middle and then the end of a bag when they could be consolidated into one key item ala the Rotom Catalog. Even if there were 100 less items that's still going to be an issue. Likewise have one million type boosting items or legendary held items as you want, I just want them in separate bag pockets so I can shuffle them in/out while looking for my trade evolution items. In contrast I see very few people complain (& yes im sure i'll get a litany of people going actually i dont like those but you cant deny you dont see as much complaints about them!) about the various vendor trash items and full heal expys and I think a lot of that is because they have their own, much smaller, sections in the bag.

I disagree. Sure, when people think about Item Bloat, they really think about the Legendary-related items, and with good reason. Do we really need Silvally to have 17 memories when the Arceus Plates already exist? And you can even argue that both could use the good old type-boosting items introduced in Gen 2. Not to mention the obvious problem of actually giving them a proper place to be obtained, which is something that, like the legendaries themselves, are just unceremoniously shoved somewhere because it just works.

I do agree that evolutionary items without in-battle uses should have their own pocket though.

The Full Heal expies are actually ok because they don't really require new code, they just use pre-existing stuff, so I don't mind. Can't remember if they work as held items like a Lum Berry, but if they don't, they should.

 

[R_N]

I disagree. Sure, when people think about Item Bloat, they really think about the Legendary-related items, and with good reason. Do we really need Silvally to have 17 memories when the Arceus Plates already exist? And you can even argue that both could use the good old type-boosting items introduced in Gen 2. Not to mention the obvious problem of actually giving them a proper place to be obtained, which is something that, like the legendaries themselves, are just unceremoniously shoved somewhere because it just works.

I do agree that evolutionary items without in-battle uses should have their own pocket though.

The Full Heal expies are actually ok because they don't really require new code, they just use pre-existing stuff, so I don't mind. Can't remember if they work as held items like a Lum Berry, but if they don't, they should.

Honestly it doesnt even bug me that they're unceremoniously placed elsewhere in future games after their context is done. I don't need increasingly contrived story reasons for why we get all these key items. Their time as context-sensitive items is over, so its fine to me if we just get them in batches as non-canon asides. I can see why it does bug people (it is very silly) but it washes over me at this point.

I'd also guess al ot of the form changes use the same bits of code it just looks for different flags. ...yo uknow we have a lot of source code now we probably have an answer to that somewhere. It'd be fascinating if they were pretty substantially different

that said!

I wouldn't say no if they, say, consolidated some of the form changes into just being a thing you initate in their respective menus. You know like hovering over a Pokemon and selecting their summary and stuff. Keep items for the fusion folk (and consolidate the necrozma items? its weird there's two of them) and maybe zygarde since that's kind of complex andddd actually I guess Giratina & the wolves still need their held items for (and i use this with as many scarequotes as i can muster) """"BALANCE""""". But like the forces of nature, shaymin, hoopa, etc oh just pop into their respective menu, click form change and away they go. I'll never say no to extra QOL you know?

 

[Bakugames]

it is silly that there's multiple abilities that do the exact same thing thats a separate issue.

I dont mind those as they often come with lore in mind. Honestly I never heard of the idea of ability bloat. Pokemon can only have 3 at max, its not like having a bunch of them is going to change anything.

Unless its about powercreep, which only really matters for some abilities imo, mainly stuff like regenerator and intimidate

Small edit:

Thing is, tecnically those are never legal in the official competitive format. So why would they care.

I want them to be removed completly because imo removing them should be on the games part. And also so showdown cant use them whatsoever LOL

 

[Worldie]

I want them to be removed completly because imo removing them should be on the games part. And also so showdown cant use them whatsoever LOL

Showdown went out of their way to create a mode where removed content still exists, they'd never be gone from here

 

[R_N]

I dont mind those as they often come with lore in mind. Honestly I never heard of the idea of ability bloat. Pokemon can only have 3 at max, its not like having a bunch of them is going to change anything.

Unless its about powercreep, which only really matters for some abilities imo, mainly stuff like regenerator and intimidate

Small edit:

I want them to be removed completly because imo removing them should be on the games part. And also so showdown cant use them whatsoever LOL

If anything it feels like it should be on Home's part

what, gamefreak, worried you're going to be bringing back barrage?? can't take the risk of just editing on transfer??

 

[Worldie]

what, gamefreak, worried you're going to be bringing back barrage?? can't take the risk of just editing on transfer??

Honestly... considering how Home (and Bank) already had some issues with importing Pokemon with tecnicallynotlegal data...

...I'm fine with the current method

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Remember how PBR actually had player options that weren't literal childs?

Would be really neat if the main game incorporated those.

Seriously, at what point in the games does it matter that the protag ain't tall enough to ride a rollercoaster?

 

[chimp]

Does it though? Does it really? Does Polteageist feel unique because it has Teatime, or because it has Shell Smash + Stored Power? Does Galarian Rapidash feel unique because it has Pastel Veil, or because it's a rare example of both a physical Fairy-type and a physical Psychic-type? Does Sirfetch'd feel unique because it has Meteor Assault, or because it's an evolution to one of the biggest meme Pokemon of all time?

Likewise, does Dubwool not feel unique despite its access to Cotton Guard + Body Press, plus the previously exclusive Fluffy? Does Centiskorch not feel unique despite its previously exclusive typing and access to cool moves like Coil, Knock Off, and Fire Lash (another previous exclusive!)?

Pokemon don't need signature moves and abilities to feel unique. They just need to combine old or common things in new and interesting ways.

I said in my post that Game Freak often botches execution, but my argument is that it's a good idea. For every Meteor Assault and Teatime, you have Punk Rock, Ice Scales & No Retreat. The idea of every Pokemon getting something unique is very compelling. I never said it was always a home run.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I said in my post that Game Freak often botches execution, but my argument is that it's a good idea. For every Meteor Assault and Teatime, you have Punk Rock, Ice Scales & No Retreat. The idea of every Pokemon getting something unique is very compelling. I never said it was always a home run.

Even if the move or ability is good, the Pokemon could still be more or less the same without it. No Retreat and Punk Rock are interesting (as are Dragon Darts and Ice Face), but the effect of Ice Scales could have been replicated by just... improving Frosmoth's base Sp. Def. And while Spirit Break is a great move, Grimmsnarl would still be setting screens and bulking up without it.

Every Pokemon doing something unique is certainly compelling, but I think it's more compelling when that doesn't rely on introducing stuff just for a single Pokemon. It shows ingenuity on the part of the developer to notice some pieces that hadn't been arranged in a particular formation and think "wait a second, this could be interesting", and between types, stats, moves, and abilities, Pokemon has countless pieces that can fit together in so many different ways. Despite their signature things being boring, Hatterene, Polteageist, Galarian Rapidash, Sirfetch'd, Frosmoth, and Grimmsnarl are all interesting and unique because of the other things they do, and would still be interesting and unique if their signature thing didn't exist.

 

[chimp]

Even if the move or ability is good, the Pokemon could still be more or less the same without it. No Retreat and Punk Rock are interesting (as are Dragon Darts and Ice Face), but the effect of Ice Scales could have been replicated by just... improving Frosmoth's base Sp. Def. And while Spirit Break is a great move, Grimmsnarl would still be setting screens and bulking up without it.

Every Pokemon doing something unique is certainly compelling, but I think it's more compelling when that doesn't rely on introducing stuff just for a single Pokemon. It shows ingenuity on the part of the developer to notice some pieces that hadn't been arranged in a particular formation and think "wait a second, this could be interesting", and between types, stats, moves, and abilities, Pokemon has countless pieces that can fit together in so many different ways. Despite their signature things being boring, Hatterene, Polteageist, Galarian Rapidash, Sirfetch'd, Frosmoth, and Grimmsnarl are all interesting and unique because of the other things they do, and would still be interesting and unique if their signature thing didn't exist.

Nowhere did I claim those Pokemon were unique solely because they got unique moves/abilities, and I don't know where you got that point from. Saying Ice Scales can be replaced with just "boosting it's Sp.D stat" is a frustratingly reductive argument that misses the point of why giving every new Pokemon atleast one unique trait is a overall positive on the game. Of course I'd want diversity in Pokemon throughout all aspects of it's design- no where did I claim the contrary- but guranteeing each Pokemon will have atleast one unique aspect is something that is, in my opinion, a massive positive in terms of game design.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Nowhere did I claim those Pokemon were unique solely because they got unique moves/abilities, and I don't know where you got that point from. Saying Ice Scales can be replaced with just "boosting it's Sp.D stat" is a frustratingly reductive argument that misses the point of why giving every new Pokemon atleast one unique trait is a overall positive on the game. Of course I'd want diversity in Pokemon throughout all aspects of it's design- no where did I claim the contrary- but guranteeing each Pokemon will have atleast one unique aspect is something that is, in my opinion, a massive positive in terms of game design.

You didn't say that, but you did say (or at least seem to say) that giving every new Pokemon a brand-new signature thing is fundamentally a good thing, which I disagree with.

 

[Kurona]

I mean, yes, but in theory it'd happen less as (most) of those signature moves that do get redistributed are actually good.
Ofc noone is going to care if/when Magic Powder gets dexited, but seeing stuff like Mystical Fire or Strenght Sap go from "oh this pokemon exists and had this?" to "Oh everyone and their mom runs this" is pretty neat if you ask me.

Expecially as the case of "Good move on bad pokemon" is pretty common with Signature moves and abilities.

To me this actually kind of makes the issue worse -- not only are you giving every Pokémon something entirely new in a contrived way to make them special, but you're then just redistributing it later anyway and hence taking away the thing that supposedly makes them special. Where does that leave that Pokémon, then? Used to be that Sceptile having Leaf Blade and Delphox having Mystical Fire were these cool, unique traits about them; something only they could do that made them stand out... and now so many more Pokémon get them, and perhaps worse, Sceptile and Delphox aren't even the best users of them anymore. Redistributing a signature trait en masse defeats the purpose of that signature trait in the first place, and it becomes predictably worse when you're introducing one for almost every new Pokémon.

Basically there being like 17 kind of usless very niche battle items isn't really an issue, but 17 Silvally Memories is an issue becaues they'res omething you're expected to swap in & out of and they keep getting put into the middle and then the end of a bag when they could be consolidated into one key item ala the Rotom Catalog.

I think the main thing holding this back is that Silvally's stuff are items in the first place -- their being hold items means it can't hold anything else as compared to form changing with a key item, and removing a non-key item from the equation would consolidate a buff rather than just item clean-up.

Though, frankly, to which I say good; Silvally kinda sucks right now, at least let it hold an item while doing its gimmick. Genesect at least is an already overwhelming Pokémon that would probably benefit a lot from being able to have both a choice scarf and a 100% accurate fire blast, but certain Pokémon like Silvally here I just wouldn't mind seeing buffed from this sort of thing. It's actually killing two birds with one stone; you buff it and reduce item bloat!

 

[CPU]

Move bloat is absolutely a thing when they cut moves that had wide distribution and were pretty straightforward in execution, but then add 20-30 (at least!) new moves with only 1-2 Pokémon learning them, tops. Ever tried to list all the Pokémon from memory, and then do the same with moves? I have, and moves are substantially harder, due to not (usually) having evolutionary connections and a bunch of filler/flavor moves that no one uses.

I'd be curious to go through older generations and see how many "signature" moves existed, and how many lost signature status later. (Of course, you have to define "signature": only level-up learners?; do egg moves remove signature status?; what about weird cases like Gen 1 Softboiled, that was only available via TM?; event moves???)

 

[Worldie]

I'd be curious to go through older generations and see how many "signature" moves existed, and how many lost signature status later. (Of course, you have to define "signature": only level-up learners?; do egg moves remove signature status?; what about weird cases like Gen 1 Softboiled, that was only available via TM?; event moves???)

Someone already did this for you

 

[R_N]

I think the main thing holding this back is that Silvally's stuff are items in the first place -- their being hold items means it can't hold anything else as compared to form changing with a key item, and removing a non-key item from the equation would consolidate a buff rather than just item clean-up.

Though, frankly, to which I say good; Silvally kinda sucks right now, at least let it hold an item while doing its gimmick. Genesect at least is an already overwhelming Pokémon that would probably benefit a lot from being able to have both a choice scarf and a 100% accurate fire blast, but certain Pokémon like Silvally here I just wouldn't mind seeing buffed from this sort of thing. It's actually killing two birds with one stone; you buff it and reduce item bloat!

We solved this problem in gen 7 with z moves! Z Crystals sit in your bag (in their own dedicated pocket, very nice) and when you use them it generates a little z crystal for your Pokiemon to hold

Do the same thing with Silvally but consolidate it into 1 thing since there's no collection aspect to them and only affect one mon.
Memory Case -> What Memory do you want to equip? -> Select Memory from list -> Select Silvally -> pshew silvally is now holding that Memory and the Type changed!

Can do the same with Genesect's drives, too.




Hey side note is it weird to anyone else you can just throw away the Memories? They're like the highest ranked thing for each type in the Crammomatic, even. Odd choice

 

[Bakugames]

I feel like signature moves wouldn't be a problem if every type (and each side of special/physical) had even playing fields. we all know too well of types that lack physical or special coverage, having no move that does [x] basic thing etc. If every basic niche was covered by normal moves, signature ones would be pretty much just cute new additions.

 

[Kurona]

I feel like signature moves wouldn't be a problem if every type (and each side of special/physical) had even playing fields. we all know too well of types that lack physical or special coverage, having no move that does [x] basic thing etc. If every basic niche was covered by normal moves, signature ones would be pretty much just cute new additions.

That removes the entire point of signature traits (making a Pokémon have a unique role), and reduces each type's identity to nothing but a matchup chart.

 

[Bakugames]

That removes the entire point of signature traits (making a Pokémon have a unique role), and reduces each type's identity to nothing but a matchup chart.

wym? i'm not saying every pokemon should learn every stab move avaliable to them, Im saying that the types themselves should all at least have the same basic choices in both sides. like both special and physical sides should have the option of, lets say, a strong 100% acc move (just an example). Whenether you add them to a pokemon or not is something else

 

[Kurona]

wym? i'm not saying every pokemon should learn every stab move avaliable to them, Im saying that the types themselves should all at least have the same basic choices in both sides. like both special and physical sides should have the option of, lets say, a strong 100% acc move (just an example). Whenether you add them to a pokemon or not is something else

Because if you have a ground-type equivalent of Flamethrower and a fire-type equivalent of Earthquake, then what really makes those types different from each other beyond the matchup chart?

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Because if you have a ground-type equivalent of Flamethrower and a fire-type equivalent of Earthquake, then what really makes those types different from each other beyond the matchup chart?

You mean Earth Power and Flare Blitz?

 

[Bakugames]

Because if you have a ground-type equivalent of Flamethrower and a fire-type equivalent of Earthquake, then what really makes those types different from each other beyond the matchup chart?

we already have a ground type equivalent of flamethrower, its earth power.

Also, why should they be so different beyond the matchup chart? Why should some types have no access to some niches vs other types? Sure if the way it worked was like STABmons, i could see the logic, but its not like every pokemon can learn every move (otherwise the odd movepool choices thread wouldnt exist lol).

I'm not saying every single move needs a copy of another type. I said basic niches, like having good strong moves, weak moves, status moves, good accuracy, bad accuracy, maybe common secondary effects etc. The foundation which you can make more unique moves with the types traits

Theres also so many other factors to consider with a pokemon (type combos, the actual matchup chart, the stats, the abilities, the actual moves it can learn) too, so I honestly don't understand that conclusion

 

[Codraroll]

Pokemon don't need signature moves and abilities to feel unique. They just need to combine old or common things in new and interesting ways.

The problem with that, I guess, is that eventually you will run out of combinations. There are only so many ways to put together typings and general stat distributions - a Psychic/Fire Pokémon with 116 Attack and 84 Spe won't play much differently from a Fire/Psychic with 115 Attack and 85 Spe, for instance, even if one had a BST of 495 and the other a BST of 514.

That being said, I'm not really a fan of "signature moves/abilities for everyone!" either. It feels a little contrived when the Pokémon is new ("oh, so Squibble gets Snow Slap, but so what - it will probably just use Ice Punch anyway") and later when the move isn't exclusive anymore, it will just add to the bloat while the Pokémon in question will need another means to be relevant. If Squibble had nothing going for it over Walrein except the access to Snow Slap, and suddenly Snow Slap was handed out to everything including Walrein come the next generation, what's left for Squibble to be unique with? In the converse case, should access to Snow Slap forever be Squibble's one selling point? Not that that's bound to be effective either; I mean, it's not like "Unique access to Kinesis!" is the one thing people think about when they see the Abra line.

And ... seeing it from the other side, what do new Pokémon need unique moves for anyway? Squibble doesn't need Snow Slap to stand apart from Walrein if the Spheal family isn't native to Squibble's region. It has novelty, people would want to use the cool new Pokémon anyway, and the designers would know not to make it available right to the one Pokémon out there it sort of resembles. Okay, in later generations when the novelty has worn off, they would be a little redundant with each other ... but that would also have been the case if Snow Slap was no longer Squibble's signature move.

Besides, arguably, Gen I was the king of redundancy, and it did well anyway. It had two late-game Rock/Ground families. Three Water/Ice Pokémon, two of which evolved from a pure Water-type. There were three two-stage pure Fire-type mammal families, neither of which had any tools that made it stand out from the other two. Vileplume and Victreebel were both redundant with Venusaur. The Clefairy and Jigglypuff families are functionally the same and even use many of the same moves through level-up (Pound, Sing, Double Slap) and have near-identical TM compatibilities (Clefairy/Clefable get Metronome while Jigglypuff/Wigglytuff don't, that's the only difference). There are two functionally identical Nidoran families. Omastar and Kabuto do mostly the same things. You could probably make the case for a handful of others too (Hi, Normal/Flying birds!).
The traits that eventually separated all these similiar families were added in later generations. The Oddish family got a thing for Fairy-type moves while the Bellsprout family got more physical Poison-type attacks to play with. Ninetales got Drought and a slew of Psychic-type moves while Arcanine got Intimidate and Rapidash got horn moves. Cloyster got Skill Link and Shell Smash, Dewgong got screwed. Wigglytuff got lots of sound moves, Clefable got lots and lots and lots of moves in general. And so on. The traits they started out with didn't really define them in the end.

All that being said ... it could be that Game Freak doesn't want to bother with continuous overhauls for old Pokémon each generation anymore, so instead they just slap a gimmick on every Pokémon from the onset and call that sufficient forever. It's not like 'mons such as Klinklang or Vanilluxe have got a lot more tools to play with in the past three generations. Carnivine's moveset in Gen IV is almost identical to that of Gen VII. But I guess that's another discussion.