It doesn't even have that now, it dropped to UU and is more or less unviable in VGC
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(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon
- Thread starter BriarRose
- Start date
Eh, I hardly said the metagame or the system back then was perfect. Some made enough sense - as we saw in the next gen, the likes of Salamence or Dragonite getting good STAB options made them monstrous - but then of course you had a lot of bugs who couldn't really do anything. It really does seem like they intended you to never use bug-types beyond the first few gyms :(
Honestly, considering how realistically gen 1-2 and potentially 3 weren't really built with an actual competitive aspect in mind, that's not to exclude.
True, though I guess I meant less about strictly competitive and more like... they would probably try and design each Pokémon to be at least somewhat usable when fighting your friends, or have some real purpose in mind. It's weird how stuff like Beedrill, Ledian and even Scizor seriously got left behind with nothing to do.
I think i've floated this by before, but I'll bring it back:
the first gen in particular feels like...an RPG but with Monsters. Where as Pokemon these days is a Monsters RPG.
I'd say gen 4 was the turning point where they started really trying to let every Pokemon be at least somewhat usable, if only in game, without being a total drag or being intended to be replaecd, something they've continued to work on in every gen since. But even compared to gen 2 & 3, gen 1 stands out in this regard.
It's definitely an interesting little nugget.
Yeah, most of their changes are really focused on VGC, from the Dark Void nerf to the more recent changes to having some abilities ignore Intimidate. However, some changes though do seem to have no reason besides balancing for singles. Aegislash having a 20 BST decrease from Gen 7 to Gen 8 seems odd (especially being the only Pokémon that changed stats in Gen 8) since it never was a overwhelming VGC Pokémon, but it was Uber two generations in a row in 6v6. Heavy-Duty Boots are similar in that aspect as well, I mentioned in another thread, but the introduction of Boots only really changes anything in Smogon's 6v6 formats where people actually use entry hazards.
It always annoys me when I go back and replay gens 1-2 (sometimes 3) and realize that some pokemon are just kinda... not worth using. Something like GSC Gligar looks cool to use, until you realize that it does not learn any ground or flying moves by level up or tm (besides Hidden Power). You can get Wing Attack from an egg move and earthquake as a Stadium 2 distribution (along with wing attack) but that's not something someone would really do in-game (especially if it is the VC releases).
I definitely think that once the physical / special split happened Game Freak tried to give every pokemon (that was not a gimmick) something to use ingame that is more, straightforward to the point and usable. Instead of something like Absol relying on SD + Slash / Shadow Ball to use its main attacking stat in Gen 3, it instead can rely upon physical dark moves like Bite or Night Slash. Its a little more intuitive that the best option is a STAB move rather than a non-stab move like Slash or a move with ball in its name that can lower special defense. Gen 3 at least gave pokemon some options, I shudder to think what attacks Absol would have if it was introduced in Gen 2.
It's not perfect by any means, but at least now pokemon generally are less janky, and looking through any modern regional dex its hard to find something that has little to no ingame use. I may not be interested in using Gumshoos in Sun/Moon, but I at least know that it has STAB normal moves to through out, rather than something like Yanma in gens 2/3. Yanma's moveset in both those generations consists of some real hot garbage. It can speed boost + baton pass in Gen 3, hopefully to something with a offensive stat more than yanmas cool base 75 special attack. Idk what you even yanma for besides the power of friendship™ (Return off of a even cooler base 65 attack stat).
I think the balance issues with Gen I was because, IIRC, in the earliest planning stages for link cable functionality, it was going to be used solely for trading, not player vs player combat. This would explain many of the Gen I mechanics that make setting up a competitive PvP teams so painstakingly awful even compared to Gen II.
The only things that make is less tedious are abusing glitches, which weren't intentional and most of those did not exist in the original Japanese versions of the games(including most glitches involving MissingNO., which is why it is practically unknown in the Japanese fandom and even Game Freak themselves, since the latter weren't involved directly with the localization processes that created those glitches. That is also why there has never been an official references to it despite being well known in the west.)
The only things that make is less tedious are abusing glitches, which weren't intentional and most of those did not exist in the original Japanese versions of the games(including most glitches involving MissingNO., which is why it is practically unknown in the Japanese fandom and even Game Freak themselves, since the latter weren't involved directly with the localization processes that created those glitches. That is also why there has never been an official references to it despite being well known in the west.)
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Or they simply didn't think PvP was going to be such a hit, and so competitive, to begin with.
We already know, thanks to the leaks, that in Gen II they were already taking some balance considerations into account (such as infamously thinking Snorlax was balanced because of its low Defense). Then there are the Stadium games that provide fixes for some of the crazier mechanics of the GB games.
This does create a new problem, though, as there are a lot of older Pokémon out there with extremely wide movepools. Making new Pokémon with shallower movepools doesn't fix that - people will just use the older 'mons who have all the options instead. The cat is out of the bag, so to speak.
I honestly wouldn't mind if they did more drastic changes to Pokémon between games than simply changing their base stats. I think it would be interesting to see changes involving the removal of certain moves from certain Pokémon for the sake of balance in relation with the rest of the metagame. For exemple, removing Nasty Plot from Hydreigon's moveset even though it could learn it in previous games and the move still exists, or removing Ice moves from the billions of Water-Types that can learn them.
I think it would help keeping a more controlled balance of strong Pokémon with simple movepools compared to weaker Pokémon (or Normal-Types) with wider movepools, being less dependant on what each of them could learn in previous games, while also improving the aspect of individuality between each of them.
Exactly. The main reason I'm not a fan of big movepools is that it's a slippery slope. Giving a small selection of Pokemon a specific coverage move only makes that group of Pokemon more unique, but if keep giving out good moves to more and more Pokemon, you will reach a point were you have to give those good moves to every other Pokemon just so they can keep up. That's how we ended up with the current situation, where almost every physical attacker learns earthquake and stone edge and close combat and...
This is probably more suitable in the unpopular opinions thread, but I kind of want to see a massive movepool reform for every Pokemon. Special attackers aren't usually that bad, but psysical attackers tend to have a crazy amount of coverage options. I would also like to see moves like knock off, maybe u-turn, scald and such become much rarer than they are now.
Scald in particular is wild to me in how it's just a move most every Water-type can learn. Every single thing about it from the strange and unique property of a water-type move being capable of burns to it having about the same power and accuracy as your standard special water move screams signature move to me.
It could have been Simipour's signiture move, as it seems to be based on a geyser, which fits scald perfectly. And then some other random Pokemon could have gotten it in later gens, like Volcanion or something.
edit: I just checked and Volcanion does actually get it through level-up. Clawizter would be a pretty good recipient of the move as well, if GF ever decides to remove the scald TM (which they won't).
I wouldn't be much against a "movepool cut" for older Pokemon, expecially gen 1/2 ones that are plagued by weird stuff like flamethrower Machamp and Surf Rhypherior.
I wouldn't fix anything "smogon-level" since you can use older gens moveset, but it would definitely differentiate more on actual cartridge level.
Honestly that's the stuff I'd love to keep, it's hilarious
I agree with both and am at two thoughts about it:
Spread Them Afterwards: I'm fine with a lot of this Signature stuff if they then start spreading them around. Like, okay, for one gen or at least one game they want to make the Pokemon fun to use so give it something only it has. But there's no reason to then just keep that one thing to that Pokemon after that. Now this gen, to fill out the TR list, they've started spreading out many Signature Moves which is great though I hope they do more, maybe even having a Move Tutor teach a batch of them. And for a long while I've been saying they should have made ways for Pokemon to have more than 3 Abilities and spread those around.
Give All Pokemon Something: One the other hand, if they have that Pokemon back in a regional dex, unless it has good stats, Typing, & Abilities it runs the risk of just becoming "another" Pokemon. So maybe I wouldn't mind if a Pokemon has a little something if most, if not every, Pokemon family has something unique to it (or at least a group of them).
Maybe there's a compromise between the two ideas, like I know they like to throw Signature Moves onto some Pokemon via breeding, though usually which Pokemon get it are oddballs. Maybe if the choices made more sense (and they add Ability Breeding) this could be a work around so they can make Signature stuff for new and old Pokemon (which makes using them in-game a unique experience) while not strictly keeping it to those Pokemon (allowing competitive to experiment the new Moves & Abilities on other Pokemon builds).
Hmm, I'm wondering if GF's plans moving forward is that, much like with Pokemon, for each gen moving forward they'll now pick & choose what Moves will be in the games; rebuilding the moveset of Pokemon that will be in the regional dex (or at least replace & rearrange them). The randomness of Movexit feels like it was a sudden decision they made, maybe right after deciding to do Dexit, but hopefully next gen maybe we'll see some sort of sense being made now that it would be planned(?).
Why not both?
One issue I do take on GF's decision is that these new Signature stuff feel thrown on instead of more tailormade for the Pokemon.
I think Items have been needing a major rehaul for a long time. In their mechanics (I still say we should allow for Pokemon to hold multiple items), many of their effects (like I think the species exclusive items should have a minor yet useful/niche if given to other Pokemon), how their organized, their availability, and so on. Oh, and also start having more in-game characters use them...
While I don't think we'll not ever play a main game where we're a kid, it would be nice if for multi-player they let us at least choose one of the Trainer Classes in the game (maybe give us the option of some different clothing, hair styles, and picking colors of their clothes, hair, eyes, skin, etc.).
And also for Abilities.
I know that One-Hit KO moves are only ever used casually, but I still don't like the "It will fail if the opponent has a higher level" rule they have. The whole point of these moves is defeating something you otherwise couldn't, but that's hugely diminished if you need to at least be at the same level of the opponent for them to even work in the first place.
I get that they don't want you OHKOing a lvl 100 Pokémon with a lvl 1 and all, but it's possible to have level restrictions while still keeping the move usable, like "you can't KO opponents whose level is 50% higher than yours" or something
I get that they don't want you OHKOing a lvl 100 Pokémon with a lvl 1 and all, but it's possible to have level restrictions while still keeping the move usable, like "you can't KO opponents whose level is 50% higher than yours" or something
They also have better accuracy the lower the targets level is than the user. Makes them an interesting choice for Raid Battles if you use a level 100 Pokemon with Horn Drill/Guillotine/Fissure/Sheer Cold since they take 2 bars away from shields(but don't do any damage and have no effect if shields aren't currently up)
I appreciate the Bulbapedia links but it has some issues that stop me from using it as a comprehensive listing of signature moves (at least from how I view them). I might have had a more favorable view of it if they didn't start off on the wrong foot by listing Skull Bash as a signature move for the Squirtle line in Gen 2. Okay, sure, they're the only Pokémon to learn it by level, but Bulbasaur and Cubone get it via Egg Move (they don't count Egg Moves as ruining signature status, for some reason), and a good chunk of Gen 1 can be transferred over with it as it was a TM. I don't feel that a move can "become" signature if it wasn't in a prior generation, whether if that's because of the loss of a TM or Egg move, or simply because other learners are no longer in the game. Honestly surprised they don't list Focus Blast as a signature move for Yveltal
Signature Abilities are thankfully a much simpler matter but not one that needs a lot of delving into because they're simpler, IMO.
