(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

[DrumstickGaming]

Time for a big post about why Pokemon Colosseum is in my opinion, one of the worst Pokemon games of all time, spinoff, main series, whatever. If you like it, that's great and more power to you.

"Story"

First, the story, or rather lack of one. The problem lies entirely with an intriguing opening cutscene that teases an actual character arc but then swaps that out for a silent protagonist yes / no text box monstrosity that only seems interesting because of the framing and that motorbike. In the actual game, Wes doesn't emote, so HELLO wasted potential!

Everyone likes Miror B, but Dakim's character is lol he punches people, Venus's character is super generic brat, and Ein mass-produces Shadow Pokemon and that's literally the only thing we know about him outside the Ein Files (tip: if your character depth is in menus outside cutscenes, you're doing it wrong). Nascour makes the other admins look like N in terms of depth and Evice would be a cool twist if it weren't the most BS fight in the series.

Gameplay

This is where the game really falls apart. You purify Shadow Pokemon by using Shadow Rush until they get in Hyper Mode and you call them out of it, or by using Scents with the Cologne Case you get after beating Dakim at Mt. Battle. There is no real variation when objectively your best strategy for most physical attackers is spamming high-crit Hyper Mode Shadow Rush. Outside legendaries and starters, your only real special attackers that are viable are like...Espeon and Flaaffy and that's basically it??? And you're gonna be stuck with Shadows until you beat Skrub in Relic Forest...which is like...roughly a third to a half of the game. Outside of Umbreon and Espeon, this basically forces you to be underleveled until then for no real reason.

Now I'm gonna review every Pokemon rapid-fire, good mons are in blue

Espeon: Best mon in the game bar none.

Umbreon: Requires Toxic, pretty meh as it has a ho-hum defensive type with few resistances, just drop it.

Makuhita: Good as Hariyama, but Makuhita is insanely frail and always moves last thanks to Vital Throw (don't use Cross Chop). Despite being the first Shadow Pokemon, it's a huge drag to raise earlygame and you're gonna be using Vital Throw for what feels like forever unless you get Brick Break from Pyrite Colosseum lategame. Not recommended overall.

Bayleef: Decent moves but lol Grass type starter. It's a tiny bit better off thanks to weather TMs and SolarBeam, but not by much.

Quilava: Good, but not many mons are weak to Fire and you're basically forced to use Fire Blast to do any real damage, which is risky on a glass cannon in a game where Earthquake or Water moves are everywhere.

Croconaw: Best starter by a mile. Surf with Rain Dance later is pretty good and Water is always good defensively.

Slugma: This has Flamethrower...and that's where the postives end because it is slow with an awful defensive type, and again, not much is weak to Fire.

Noctowl: Cool in theory with Hypnosis and Reflect, but I'd imagine you'd have to give this thing Toxic to do decent damage.

Flaaffy: Purified Thunderbolt + evolution is amazing but you have Dakim right after so lawl. You also have Thundershock for what feels like forever. Pretty good though, first good mon outside starters and Espeon.

Skiploom: You are only using this for a fast Sleep Powder: you're lying if you say it's good outside that niche. Pretty bad.

Quagsire: Fluctuating but a good option overall. Good defensive type, good lategame Earthquake, amazing in the Shadow Pokemon Lab. A solid choice.

Misdreavus: Literally the only Ghost type in the game, only decent for Confuse Ray hax because special moves require Mt. Battle. Though the bonehead Ai can make you laugh sometimes I guess. Meh, not worth it: it lacks moves.

Furret: MAN I LOVE THIS. Follow Me and Helping Hand on the same Pokemon in a Doubles-centric game with a strong early Strength to top it off? Fantastic by any measure and honestly a reason to pretend like I'm playing a good Pokemon game. If every Pokemon was as spicy as Furret, this game would be actually playable.

Yanma: l m a o G e n 3 Y a n m a

Remoraid: Level 20 when you start the game at level 25 about a fifth of the way through the game? It gets decent moves but who designed this?

Mantine: Good type for Dakim but then it falls off a cliff because BubbleBeam is pretty much its only move. If this thing had Surf I'd recommend it but it doesn't so no.

Qwilfish: Physical Gen 3 Water type where the Sludge Bomb TM can only be gotten from Under Colosseum Round 2: that's in the 50s so this thing is basically useless even with Surf. When Remoraid looks more attractive, you've got problems.

Meditite: Hey look another actually usable Pokemon, that's like what the fourth one after Flaaffy and Quagsire and Furret (discounting starters)? Hi Jump Kick is baller and even before evolving crit Shadow Rushes hit like hydrogen bombs.

Dunsparce: Glare and Yawn are cool if you were anything other than Dunsparce. Bad.

Swablu: Basically a souped up Noctowl with a better type and no Reflect. Dragon Dance is nice but using Fly to slowly sweep is meh with those offenses. Passable but not good, you just kill things too slow. Safeguard is good for Venus and you're okay for Miror B I guess?

Sudowoodo: Hmmm, let's see. Bad defensive type? Check. Slow as beans? Check. Natural Rock Slide means nothing when you'll never get an attack off, plus the bosses hate its guts? Check. Again like Qwilfish I feel for this thing.

Plusle: Traded EXP and Helping Hand are cool, coming at level 13 is not.

Hitmontop: This thing is way worse than it seems. Intimidate would be cool if you weren't stuck with lol Triple Kick until Pyrite Colosseum's Brick Break TM in the 50s. The ONE game Hitmontop could have shined in, and they screwed it up.

Entei: A normally bad legendary only looks good when you compare it to the mostly garbage options until now. You kinda want to Time Flute this.

Ledian: Ledian Mega Awful Offensively: you use screens and then you die: terrible.

Suicune: Rain Dance and Surf with actual stats means this is the best Water type in the game. Requires Time Flute.

Gligar: Awful moves and requiring the Earthquake TM (it doesn't even get Dig on purification WTF) means that you'd have to be desperate to use this.

Stantler: How do you make Hitmontop look good? By being Stantler. Intimidate and Hypnosis mean nothing with no solid STAB (Take Down sucks),

Piloswine: Natural Dig and Blizzard are cool but are slow and unreliable respectively, and that defensive typing is pretty bad.

Sneasel: What if you woke up one morning and decided to use Sneasel? Your whole life would change. Oh, the places you'll go nowhere with because Ice and Dark were Special back then off 35 S p e c i a l A t t a c k so have fun with Screech, Brick Break and (Mt. Battle) Shadow Ball through TMs. The best thing about Sneasel is its animations. Literally purifying it makes it worse because its better as a Hyper Moding, Shadow Rush critting piece of garbage.

Aipom: LOL Tickle bot

Murkrow: One of the better bad choices, Fly and decent Speed as well as a Dark type immune to Earthquake makes it slightly better than a 3/10.

Forretress: Only decent if you give it the Toxic TM: its only niche offensively is Explosion. Still not worth getting excited over because the endgame has plenty of things that hit Forretress neutrally. You can maybe wall Nascour's Psychic users I guess?

Ariados: STAB Sludge Bomb is good: too bad you have Ariados's stats which are firmly outclassed at this point.

Granbull: Wow an actually good Pokemon. STAB Strength, Intimidate, can take a hit. Alright.

Vibrava: Requires a TIme Flute and the Earthquake TM. According to my friend a Vibrava would need 16,830 XP to get to level 45, which basically forces you to use the three Rare Candies near Venus. You can only barely call it good enough.

Raikou: Requires Time Flute: good otherwise.

Sunflora: literally lol

Delibird: don't even think about it

Heracross: Hot take but this thing blows. After the four admin rematches, requires a crap ton of grinding to stand up to the final bosses, weak to to FOUR of Nascour's Psychic users (also weak to Blaziken), Evice's Salamence bodies it and his mons weak to Heracross can take a hit because you are underleveled (Slaking has Aerial Ace too by the way). Don't be fooled.

Skarmory: Okay so I wrote off Forretress for being hit neutrally endgame. Not the case with Skarmory. Yes, you only have six battles left. But this is your ticket to having a managable Nascour and Evice. Dusclops can't touch you, Xatu can't touch you, Metagross can't touch you, Walrein plays the neutral game - so only Gardevoir and Blaziken threaten it in Nascour's lineup. As for Evice, you resist Slowking's Psychic and everything Scizor and Salamence and even Slaking (!!) can do. Only Machamp and Tyrantitar can pose a threat as you Toxic stall them, though watch out for their boosting moves. An excellent Pokemon even if it's only around for the last couple battles.

Miltank: LMAO final boss gauntlet, shame as it has good moves

Absol: LMAO final boss guantlet

Houndoom: LMAO final boss guantlet, why the HECK wasn't this available at like, the Shadow Lab?

Tropius: LMAO final boss guantlet

Metagross: Good emergency check for Nascour (if you lose) and Evice if you have a Time Flute to spare. Last good mon.

Tyranitar: LOL final boss

Smeragle: Postgame, I'm not even gonna comment

Ursaring: Postgame trash

Shuckle: Postgame, requires Toxic, mostly inferior to Skarmory and even Forretress imo due to the worse type

Togetic: Literal last fight in postgame. Also, why is it level 20?

Togepi, Mareep, and Scizor: LOL Japanese e-reader

So roughly only a third of the 50 or so Pokemon are usable. and a few of those require Time Flute. You will always use the same Pokemon in this game unless you play with suboptimal choices. This ruins Pokemon's greatest aspect in my opinion, that being the team customization.

Difficulty

Okay, so we've established that 2/3s of the dex is pretty bad. What did the developers do? They made some of the most annoying bosses in existence. Miror B has a grand total of two super-effective options for his fight (Swablu and Noctowl, don't even consider Qwilfish), Dakim is a little more managable but way more threatening offensively, Venus is just status cancer, and Ein is arguably even worse coinflips because of that awful Golbat with Confuse Ray and his mons hit fairly hard. This is compounded by how virtually the entire game, you WILL be underleveled unless you go grind between each major boss. It's not fun, it's not real difficulty, it's just tedious as all get out and kills the novelty the first 3D Pokemon game has.

Other small annoyances

-Saving only at PCs. Even RBY let you save anywhere while being somehow more playable, there's no excuse for this.

-Rui can get in your way occasionally if you need to turn around.

-Why the heck is a third of the game in Pyrite Town by technicality?

-Why does Nascour have no battle music?

-All those weird earlygame event flags like buying Poke Balls and talking to Duking and the like. I've seen a friend of mine who has played the game several times before forget where to go because the game doesn't railroad you that well until the Pyrite Building (I don't blame them). Don't you just love talking to random NPCs to trigger the next story event?

-Hey, you know what this game's postgame needed? Even more level spikes! Also, the postgame is dull, because again, you're underleveled with mostly bad options. XD doesn't have a whole lot of postgame either outside Orre Colosseum but if you're gonna have much of a postgame at all, make it worth my time please. The Fein battle is neat but not enough to make me want to play postgame often.

Any saving graces?

The game looks pretty nice for GameCube standards and has some great music: too bad the actual game isn't engaging.

Yeah I got nothing else.

Conclusion

In conclusion, Pokemon Colosseum is an mostly awful game loaded with artificial difficulty like constant level spikes, usually bad Pokemon where the well runs dry after like two playthroughs, and has boss design that is borderline ROM hack levels where you have access to like 15 Pokemon only moderately better than a couple competent Pokemon Stadium rentals. Avoid this game like the plague. Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness by contrast, is like 50 billion times more playable, eases up on the difficulty, and is just extremely fun to play while executing this game's premise of limited options so much better than Colosseum ever did - you purify mons way earlier, the Purify Chamber makes purifying mons way less of a hassle, and oh yeah, it doesn't kick you in the teeth every two seconds because "lul games can only be fun if they are hard!!!!"

 

[Nitro Indigo]

if your character depth is in menus outside cutscenes, you're doing it wrong

And the Kirby fandom took that personally.

Jokes aside, I've wanted to play XD for years, but it's so rare and expensive, plus GameCube games are region-locked so I'm worried I'll accidentally buy a copy I can't play.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

And the Kirby fandom took that personally.

That's way more justified in Kirby's case given how it handles its appeal to multiple audiences though.

Some Kirby Spoilers with a few story elements and true final boss names, avert your eyes if you care

Kirby is, first and foremost, a series made to be wholesome to a large chunk of demographics. Their focus is on making the worlds colorful and easy to pick up and play. Kids likely don't tend to care about pause screen text. They care about "OH MY GOSH LOOK AT HOW COOL THIS YO-YO IS" or "LOOK AT THAT HUGE BATTLESHIP." Yes, you are conditioned to read pause text to use certain moves like in games to learn the controls, but a good chunk of the Abilities in the older games were very simple before Super Star and Return to Dream Land on buffed them (the latter especially). This is actually a good thing because that means you don't have to stop and read to utilize some of the simpler ones, keeping the pace up. Kirby games tend to have 1-3 minute opening cinematics, and even when they start off with an antagonist invading or causing problems, it usually is juxtaposed by Kirby having fun adventures before being called to action. They have an antagonist, but it's usually an excuse to have fun in a lighthearted world.

After that, until the boss of each world it's just you and a usually happy "sugar bowl" world (and even then, you usually need to clear a few worlds before the story starts moving beyond "fight a boss because videogame," like Kirby: Planet Robobot and Kirby: Star Allies. I mean, yes Planet Robobot has a robotic invasion as thematic window dressing, but there's no tangible person leading them until you find out about Susie and spoiler spoiler spoiler. In some extreme cases there is basically no story "beyond stop this bad guy from doing bad guy things" until the VERY end like in the last world of Kirby Triple Deluxe or in some cases the true final boss like Zero in Kirby's Dream Land 3. This is actually a good thing. Sometimes you just want to go on a power craze with little to justify it beyond the "rule of fun", and that's what makes the games so appealing and accessible. At the same time, they sneak in those story elements for people that see the games to the end with some subtle links to older games. The continuity and darker themes are a reward for people who want to see everything the game has to offer.

A lot of Kirby's lore tends to be hidden behind 100% completion via extra modes like Meta Knightmare and The (True) Arena, modes that are intentionally designed to be harder than the main game. As an adult, former kids might come back and conquer those harder modes when they get better at the game. They might start looking for more depth in their stories and stumble upon the pause text, where Kirby sneaks its hidden dark themes in. Hey, isn't that a cult in Star Allies? What's that scream Marx Soul made and why is it my Kirby game? If those themes were more overt, they would lose their mass appeal, but by having them off to the side in the last, typically hardest moments, you learn to appreciate them. Think Giygas in EarthBound, snuck in at the very end.

In conclusion, Kirby games aim for kid audiences primarily, and aim for adult audiences subtly, and that's why I love the series as an adult, because it sneaks its themes in for those who want them without going HEY MURDER ANGST TRAUMA TRAIN from the very beginning.

I highly recommend you read the spoiler tag above for context on my statement on Pokemon Colosseum if you don't mind Kirby spoilers. In contrast to Kirby, Pokemon Colosseum clearly isn't trying to be your low-key Pokemon game in the introduction where you move to a new area. You start by blowing up a gang's base. You take their prized possession with a wicked smile of triumph. Who WOULDN'T want to know more about that? But it's wasted because the game never expands upon it. Every villain in Pokemon Colosseum has one trait, maybe two if they are lucky.

You can argue the inverse with Kirby: a series you wouldn't expect to have depth ends up having it if you look closely despite seeming simple. It's like the few episodes of Batman: The Brave and the Bold that take on a more somber tone despite having the kid-friendly themes front and center in most other episodes. Kirby villains do tend to get their lore shoved in all at the end, I'll admit that, but if they didn't - if the intro just ended with the Marx Soul scream - then they'd probably lose their all-ages appeal.

A lot of the main series Pokemon games also start out simple, then sneak in their slightly adult themes in the background - that's why Pokemon Black and White is so good when you look closer (in contrast Sun and Moon's idea of "subtle" is BIG EVIL OBVIOUS SLASHER SMILE HI I'M THE VILLAIN - yeah Ghetsis was kind of a jerkwad but he fooled some generic NPCs even if he's probably obviously evil to the player).

Sorry for the long rambling post, I just really love Kirby's approach to story and think the games are wonderful at appealing to all ages. So when a game like Pokemon Colosseum fumbles when it is aiming for an older demographic than the main series, I notice it more.

 

[Magcargo]

In Sword and Shield, Fling could be used with TRs to give you a one-time 130 BP move without any other drawbacks if used with a strong move like Overheat. I thought this would be the case again in Scarlet Violet, but unfortunately, the move does not work with TMs, so you can't give a Pokemon a Hyper Beam TM and have a 150 BP Dark-type move.

I kinda understand this, but it still sucks nonetheless since you have to run useless items like Rare Bone for Fling to only have middling power, which isn't ideal.

 

[Yung Dramps]

(in contrast Sun and Moon's idea of "subtle" is BIG EVIL OBVIOUS SLASHER SMILE HI I'M THE VILLAIN - yeah Ghetsis was kind of a jerkwad but he fooled some generic NPCs even if he's probably obviously evil to the player).

But Lusamine isn't meant as a twist villain? I'm confused by what you are saying here

 

[DrumstickGaming]

But Lusamine isn't meant as a twist villain? I'm confused by what you are saying here

I didn't mean she was a twist villain by that statement. I'm saying the foreshadowing was really unsubtle.

I think the game tries to make you think she is a good person until that moment though. Why else would she be presented as a benevolent president?

 

[Yung Dramps]

I think the game tries to make you think she is a good person until that moment though.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

okay you know what point taken lmao

I don't know how I forgot about that scene

I'm dumb

 

[Pikachu315111]

I guess for me, the odd one out in all of this is really just Necrozma, because like, at least with all of the Megas, the Primals, and Ash-Greninja, there is the fact that those were retroactive add-ons to Pokémon whose profiles were already considered to be pretty much complete. Whereas Ultra Necrozma is more like BW Kyurem and 100% Zygarde; it is Necrozma’s “true” form according to the lore, without which it is either literally an incomplete remnant or a parasite piggybacking on Solgaleo or Lunala. It wasn’t something that they tacked onto it ten years after the fact — the intention to eventually show that form was probably present from early on in the design process. (After all, many fans were able to tell right away that Necrozma’s body parts could be rearranged into a draconic shape.)

Yeah, even without Z-Moves they should at least come up with a way for a Fused Necrozma to become an Ultra Necrozma. Like maybe have a hold item (for now we'll call it the "Zenith Totem") that when held by Fused Necrozma turns "Photon Geyser" into "Light That Burns the Sky" after you knock out an opponent. When you use Light That Burns the Sky, Necrozma turns into Ultra Necrozma to do the attack (or have it fail if used against a Dark-type...), and for the rest of the battle it remains Ultra Necrozma (with "Light That Burns the Sky" turning back into "Photon Geyser"). Since you're losing the Item Slot and have to knock out an opponent first to "charge" the Zenith Totem, I feel its a fair trade off.

 

[Karxrida]

Skiploom: You are only using this for a fast Sleep Powder: you're lying if you say it's good outside that niche. Pretty bad.

"It's bad outside of the extremely busted move that shits on every encounter" is an... interesting take.

A fast Sleeper in Doubles is kind of a big deal when the AI has no way to deal with it and Sleep Clause doesn't exist. I've legit considered moving Skiploom to S in my tier list because it's just that useful.

 

[Celever]

That's way more justified in Kirby's case given how it handles its appeal to multiple audiences though.

Some Kirby Spoilers with a few story elements and true final boss names, avert your eyes if you care

Kirby is, first and foremost, a series made to be wholesome to a large chunk of demographics. Their focus is on making the worlds colorful and easy to pick up and play. Kids likely don't tend to care about pause screen text. They care about "OH MY GOSH LOOK AT HOW COOL THIS YO-YO IS" or "LOOK AT THAT HUGE BATTLESHIP." Yes, you are conditioned to read pause text to use certain moves like in games to learn the controls, but a good chunk of the Abilities in the older games were very simple before Super Star and Return to Dream Land on buffed them (the latter especially). This is actually a good thing because that means you don't have to stop and read to utilize some of the simpler ones, keeping the pace up. Kirby games tend to have 1-3 minute opening cinematics, and even when they start off with an antagonist invading or causing problems, it usually is juxtaposed by Kirby having fun adventures before being called to action. They have an antagonist, but it's usually an excuse to have fun in a lighthearted world.

After that, until the boss of each world it's just you and a usually happy "sugar bowl" world (and even then, you usually need to clear a few worlds before the story starts moving beyond "fight a boss because videogame," like Kirby: Planet Robobot and Kirby: Star Allies. I mean, yes Planet Robobot has a robotic invasion as thematic window dressing, but there's no tangible person leading them until you find out about Susie and spoiler spoiler spoiler. In some extreme cases there is basically no story "beyond stop this bad guy from doing bad guy things" until the VERY end like in the last world of Kirby Triple Deluxe or in some cases the true final boss like Zero in Kirby's Dream Land 3. This is actually a good thing. Sometimes you just want to go on a power craze with little to justify it beyond the "rule of fun", and that's what makes the games so appealing and accessible. At the same time, they sneak in those story elements for people that see the games to the end with some subtle links to older games. The continuity and darker themes are a reward for people who want to see everything the game has to offer.

A lot of Kirby's lore tends to be hidden behind 100% completion via extra modes like Meta Knightmare and The (True) Arena, modes that are intentionally designed to be harder than the main game. As an adult, former kids might come back and conquer those harder modes when they get better at the game. They might start looking for more depth in their stories and stumble upon the pause text, where Kirby sneaks its hidden dark themes in. Hey, isn't that a cult in Star Allies? What's that scream Marx Soul made and why is it my Kirby game? If those themes were more overt, they would lose their mass appeal, but by having them off to the side in the last, typically hardest moments, you learn to appreciate them. Think Giygas in EarthBound, snuck in at the very end.

In conclusion, Kirby games aim for kid audiences primarily, and aim for adult audiences subtly, and that's why I love the series as an adult, because it sneaks its themes in for those who want them without going HEY MURDER ANGST TRAUMA TRAIN from the very beginning.

I highly recommend you read the spoiler tag above for context on my statement on Pokemon Colosseum if you don't mind Kirby spoilers. In contrast to Kirby, Pokemon Colosseum clearly isn't trying to be your low-key Pokemon game in the introduction where you move to a new area. You start by blowing up a gang's base. You take their prized possession with a wicked smile of triumph. Who WOULDN'T want to know more about that? But it's wasted because the game never expands upon it. Every villain in Pokemon Colosseum has one trait, maybe two if they are lucky.

You can argue the inverse with Kirby: a series you wouldn't expect to have depth ends up having it if you look closely despite seeming simple. It's like the few episodes of Batman: The Brave and the Bold that take on a more somber tone despite having the kid-friendly themes front and center in most other episodes. Kirby villains do tend to get their lore shoved in all at the end, I'll admit that, but if they didn't - if the intro just ended with the Marx Soul scream - then they'd probably lose their all-ages appeal.

A lot of the main series Pokemon games also start out simple, then sneak in their slightly adult themes in the background - that's why Pokemon Black and White is so good when you look closer (in contrast Sun and Moon's idea of "subtle" is BIG EVIL OBVIOUS SLASHER SMILE HI I'M THE VILLAIN - yeah Ghetsis was kind of a jerkwad but he fooled some generic NPCs even if he's probably obviously evil to the player).

Sorry for the long rambling post, I just really love Kirby's approach to story and think the games are wonderful at appealing to all ages. So when a game like Pokemon Colosseum fumbles when it is aiming for an older demographic than the main series, I notice it more.

.....does Pokémon Colosseum aim for an older demographic? Like it's different to the main series but I don't think it's in order to intentionally aim to older kids. Yes it starts with an explosion, but explosions aren't exactly an age-restricted feature of games. And in XD there's a Gloom that uses Sleep Powder on the player character, which the whole "a Pokémon actually using a move on a human" seems to be an imaginary line a lot of fans have decided can only be crossed in fan games due to it being so violent, but I don't think that's ever really been the case anyway. Arguably every encounter in Pokémon Ranger is a human vs Pokémon fight where the Pokémon fights back. Hell, so are the Safari Zones, just Pokémon in the Safari Zones don't fight back they only run away.

I just don't think the train of thought that "Colosseum is cooler" = "Colosseum aims for older audiences" = "Colosseum's story is TERRIBLE and SHALLOW for its target audience" tracks. Kids like cool things, and d'ya know what's cooler than thinking about something with deep meaning? Explosions and violence. Marvel made a multi billion megafranchise out of that.

And that's not to say that Colosseum doesn't have a shallow story, it absolutely does. It's to say that IDK why you're holding it up to a way higher standard than any other Pokémon game just because the player character is husbando material is a pyro with a cool motorbike yes this is husbando material.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

There was an interview that Did You Know Gaming translated where the developers of Pokémon Colosseum said they were aiming for teenagers who grew up with the original games.

 

[Karxrida]

And that's not to say that Colosseum doesn't have a shallow story, it absolutely does. It's to say that IDK why you're holding it up to a way higher standard than any other Pokémon game just because the player character is husbando material is a pyro with a cool motorbike yes this is husbando material.

None of the main games up to that point were exactly peak JRPG storytelling. Gen I basically has no plot and is almost entirely carried by the rival's face-punchable personality being an effective motivator to make you want to keep playing to beat him. Gen II has a plot but it's sloppy and underdeveloped. Gen III also has a plot and it's actually developed, but it's also just kind of goofy and not really deep.

Considering the Colosseum devs basically slapped the story mode together on a super short timeline iirc, they did a competent enough job.

 

[Esserise]

Yeah, even without Z-Moves they should at least come up with a way for a Fused Necrozma to become an Ultra Necrozma. Like maybe have a hold item (for now we'll call it the "Zenith Totem") that when held by Fused Necrozma turns "Photon Geyser" into "Light That Burns the Sky" after you knock out an opponent. When you use Light That Burns the Sky, Necrozma turns into Ultra Necrozma to do the attack (or have it fail if used against a Dark-type...), and for the rest of the battle it remains Ultra Necrozma (with "Light That Burns the Sky" turning back into "Photon Geyser"). Since you're losing the Item Slot and have to knock out an opponent first to "charge" the Zenith Totem, I feel its a fair trade off.

I don’t know if it’d even need to involve that much. I feel like they could just change it to work like Primal Reversion where you have DM/DW Necrozma hold an Ultranecrozium Z (the item could still be given a function even if Z-Moves aren’t present), and it just transforms automatically when it enters battle.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

I would like to say that I agree none of the plots save Gen V, VII, and IX are all that deep…and I’m fine with that!

Despite my criticism of Colosseum’s story above, I actually do not mind XD being more in line with the main series or that you play as Michael at all!

Heck you could even make the same claim that the Shadow Lugia intro and the Battle SIM test with Salamence and Metagross are still trying to be “action-packed intro” now that I think about it. Michael is just as mute as Wes so aside from appearance and scooter he’s basically the same silent protagonist in terms of function: you’re still trying to stop an evil organization.

Heck, I think XD is actually darker than Colosseum to some extent. Kidnapping an entire town and impersonating people, how you actually see the Shadow stuff on assembly lines in Cipher Key Lair, stuff like that is great. It definitely feels a lot more higher stakes throughout, even with stuff like the ONBS raid which is essentially the Team Rocket Radio Tower plot if it weren’t a snooze fest and actually interesting!

 

[Pikachu315111]

Gen III also has a plot and it's actually developed, but it's also just kind of goofy and not really deep.

Not deep for most of the international market, but if you were Japanese you may recognize the struggled between preserving bodies of water for the wildlife and expanding the land for human development. It's all better explained & in detail in Tama Hero's retro review of Ruby & Sapphire, but to summarize the region Hoenn is based on had a massive controversial dam project occur in one of its bays. Note that during this same time GF were crating and releasing Gen I in Japan, so they were living this (or at least seeing it play out on the news in real time) during the development of the most important project in their life:

The Japanese government and farmers chose to drain the bay to make more land for farmers to produce more food (Japan was struggling to feed all its people but had little land to farm on). However, the bay was a critical wetland for not only fisherman but also the natural ecosystem (a few bird species migrated only there, the natural species there acted altogether as a filter which kept the water clean, and it would disrupt currants meaning nearby bodies of water would stagnate longer). Despite massive protests, the government went ahead with the project and the ecosystem collapsed. In the last part of her review she revealed Japan was in a no-win scenario: Japan loses a billion dollar each year paying fisherman in damages done to the fishing industry, and they can't open the floodgates without wiping out the farms and any other home or business built on that land.

Now knowing this changed my views a bit, or at the very least explained some criticisms I had. I never understood why Team Aqua was solely focused on Pokemon while Team Magma were for people, but now I know it was to reflect this real life event of preserving nature vs human development (whether it was done well is up to opinion; I personally think they made things to simple as well as try to make it so both sides were in the wrong; or at least didn't set up the region to explain both sides extreme behavior).

 

[Yung Dramps]

Not deep for most of the international market, but if you were Japanese you may recognize the struggled between preserving bodies of water for the wildlife and expanding the land for human development. It's all better explained & in detail in Tama Hero's retro review of Ruby & Sapphire, but to summarize the region Hoenn is based on had a massive controversial dam project occur in one of its bays. Note that during this same time GF were crating and releasing Gen I in Japan, so they were living this (or at least seeing it play out on the news in real time) during the development of the most important project in their life:

The Japanese government and farmers chose to drain the bay to make more land for farmers to produce more food (Japan was struggling to feed all its people but had little land to farm on). However, the bay was a critical wetland for not only fisherman but also the natural ecosystem (a few bird species migrated only there, the natural species there acted altogether as a filter which kept the water clean, and it would disrupt currants meaning nearby bodies of water would stagnate longer). Despite massive protests, the government went ahead with the project and the ecosystem collapsed. In the last part of her review she revealed Japan was in a no-win scenario: Japan loses a billion dollar each year paying fisherman in damages done to the fishing industry, and they can't open the floodgates without wiping out the farms and any other home or business built on that land.

Now knowing this changed my views a bit, or at the very least explained some criticisms I had. I never understood why Team Aqua was solely focused on Pokemon while Team Magma were for people, but now I know it was to reflect this real life event of preserving nature vs human development (whether it was done well is up to opinion; I personally think they made things to simple as well as try to make it so both sides were in the wrong; or at least didn't set up the region to explain both sides extreme behavior).

Honestly the way it's presented in RSE is so badly dumbed down even for a kids' game that I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people in Japan didn't get it either

 

[Pikachu315111]

Honestly the way it's presented in RSE is so badly dumbed down even for a kids' game that I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people in Japan didn't get it either

I think what they needed to do was have a few land reclamations in Hoenn. Have a major one happening east of Slateport (I think geographically that is where the real bay project happened in you roughly aligned Hoenn's map with its real life counterparts) but also have some smaller completed ones around the coast (maybe even have Littleroot be settled on one thus indirectly thrusting the player into the core conflict). While it won't be directly said (though talking with NPCs on Routes and Towns/Cities will reveal it), what happened in real life if happening in Hoenn: Locals including fisherman don't approve of the project due to its environmental damage but the government and businesses are in full support of the project. That is where the two teams come in:

• Team Magma is shadow supported by businesses to assure the project goes unhampered. In a way you could compare what they do to the Pinkertons, they disrupt and intimidate protests while also performing espionage so that the project can more easily acquire (land) rights & resources. Archie's family would have been migrant farmers and grew up in near poverty, thus his view is that more land means more opportunity and less people suffering. However with Team Aqua making things difficult and the dam project at a near halt because of it, it escalates to them deciding to take control of Groudon so that they can create land anywhere they wish.
  
  
• Team Aqua are made up of fishermen and environmentalists who have decided the only way to save the ecosystem is by becoming environmental extremists/terrorists. It's obvious the government isn't going to listen to them, so they start sabotaging the project both physically and financially, tampering with equipment and secretly working with communities to make it tougher for the project to secure rights & resources (if not outright be hostile). Maxie is from a fishing family, he himself a fisherman before another land reclamation project forced him and many other fisherman he knew to retire; watching the beautiful shores he once fished from become an industrial wasteland. To him it's clear: these projects both ruin livelihoods and the environment. But with Team Magma working on behest of the businesses to force the project's continuation, it escalates to them deciding to take control of Kyogre so that they can reclaim the areas where land had taken away water and assure no more land reclamation projects are done.

And obviously, whatever game you play, things go bad as the Legendary goes nuts and Groudon tries drying up the oceans and Kyogre tries flooding & drowning all land. Once the player stops the Legendary, both team realize they've nearly caused the end of the world. Both teams agree to compromise and try & work together: the major project is cancelled while they work to find other smaller places they can reclaim land that won't cause much harm. A happy & hopeful ending which sadly the real circumstances never got.

 

[Coronis]

Not easily being able to tell the difference between Sinistea/Polteageist forms in boxes/Home.

 

[R_N]

So the new paradoxes strangely (but at least likely intentionally) don't do the "trio merged" thing that the sketches implied from the Scarlet/Violet books, but Walking Wake does still take some design cues from it, such as the more beastial horn, the mane and the spikes popping out of the mane reinterpted as red spiky fur

But man it is turbo lame that Iron Leaves is literally just Virizion but a robot. It didn't take on anything extra from the sketch, like the thicker legs or the terrakion-esque horns, the cobalion collar...there's plenty of things to pick from & reinterpret while still leaving it be 90% Virizion.

 

[Magcargo]

So the new paradoxes strangely (but at least likely intentionally) don't do the "trio merged" thing that the sketches implied from the Scarlet/Violet books, but Walking Wake does still take some design cues from it, such as the more beastial horn, the mane and the spikes popping out of the mane reinterpted as red spiky fur

But man it is turbo lame that Iron Leaves is literally just Virizion but a robot. It didn't take on anything extra from the sketch, like the thicker legs or the terrakion-esque horns, the cobalion collar...there's plenty of things to pick from & reinterpret while still leaving it be 90% Virizion.

Pretty much the only thing that Wild Wake took from the book is the horn (or headpiece, idk), which was the main part that looked like suicune. The rest just looks like Suicune, but more primal, while the sketch in the boost felt like it was taking a lot more cues from Entei. The mane might have spikes and be longer, but it doesn't look like the one in the book, at least to me.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

The spikes also aren't really anything to make note of when basically ever past paradox has them.

 

[Hugin]

Yeah, I really don't like the new Paradoxes. They could have gone with the "Bipedal Dragon" for Wake while keeping the Entei/Raikou elements, or even leaning into them more. And Leaves is just a Virizion retexture, which is sad.

The way I see it, there's 2 options. Either they decided against the "Original trio combined" option late in production and forgot/didn't have time to change the Book, which is sloppy, but happens. Or they intentionally put false info into the game to show the book's wrong. I think it's option 2, and that option annoys me. They knew fans would be pouring over this for any scrap of info. If it had been false info about a mon in the game, that'd be one thing. That's shown and disproven within a reasonable time span. They essentially told us about a mon in November and are revealing that those designs were a lie and are never being released 3 months later. Which, if I liked the new designs more than what the Book had, I'd forgive. But the Leaves design is lazy as hell, and the Wake design isn't amazing. Just...it's annoying, and I don't get why they thought it'd be a good idea.

 

[R_N]

Pretty much the only thing that Wild Wake took from the book is the horn (or headpiece, idk), which was the main part that looked like suicune. The rest just looks like Suicune, but more primal, while the sketch in the boost felt like it was taking a lot more cues from Entei. The mane might have spikes and be longer, but it doesn't look like the one in the book, at least to me.

Both the sketch and Wake have a giant shaggy mane

And I didn't say they looked the same, I said they clearly took elements. There's spikes throughout the mane in the sketch, and we get spiky red fur in the mane in the final. It's different but clearly meant as similar.

There's a reason I acknowledged in the same breath that they didn't take the trio merger concept. But there's absolutely stuff from the sketch that you can see they probably kept in mind while designing Wake.

The spikes also aren't really anything to make note of when basically ever past paradox has them.

Which does not stop them from being something present in the sketch that is also present, in some form, in approximately the same place (through the mane)

 

[Pikachu315111]

Yeah, I really don't like the new Paradoxes. They could have gone with the "Bipedal Dragon" for Wake while keeping the Entei/Raikou elements, or even leaning into them more. And Leaves is just a Virizion retexture, which is sad.

The way I see it, there's 2 options. Either they decided against the "Original trio combined" option late in production and forgot/didn't have time to change the Book, which is sloppy, but happens. Or they intentionally put false info into the game to show the book's wrong. I think it's option 2, and that option annoys me. They knew fans would be pouring over this for any scrap of info. If it had been false info about a mon in the game, that'd be one thing. That's shown and disproven within a reasonable time span. They essentially told us about a mon in November and are revealing that those designs were a lie and are never being released 3 months later. Which, if I liked the new designs more than what the Book had, I'd forgive. But the Leaves design is lazy as hell, and the Wake design isn't amazing. Just...it's annoying, and I don't get why they thought it'd be a good idea.

I think you're right it was a probably intentional swerve (especially since the drawings weren't actual Paradox Pokemon but the artist's impression of what a Paradox Pokemon would be like, obviously drawing inspiration from Legendary Pokemon they knew). But if they were going to do that, they should have gone all the way. Have the two Paradox Pokemon have parts which resemble aspects of the Legendary Beasts/Swords of Justice, but are entirely their own creature.