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Little things you like about Pokémon
- Thread starter Kurona
- Start date
One theory I saw (which seems plausible) is that, as Naganadel only has a BST of 540 unlike the other (regular) Ultra Beasts (which have a BST of 570), they initially intended for its Speed to be 151, which IS prime, but realized that was a really bad idea for balance somewhere along the line.
But then why not increase it's other stats?
Naganadel:
Normal: 73/73/73/127/73/121//540
Adjusted With Speed Up: 73/73/73/127/73/127//546
Adjusted With Speed Down: 73/73/73/127/73/113//532
If Doing "Speed Up":
Dumping In Attack: 73/97/73/127/73/127//570
Equal Distribution: 79/79/79/127/79/127//570
If Doing "Speed Down":
Dumping As Much Into Attack: 83/89/79/127/79/113//570
Focusing On Bulk: 79/73/89/127/89/113//570
Step away from the computer?
Just gotta point out, all the numbers that have been pointed out as not being prime numbers are still semi-prime numbers, which are multiples of two prime numbers (and thus can only be divided by those two numbers, as well as itself and 1), so it still kinda fits.
To be specific, DM/DW Necrozma’s speed is 7x11, Ultra Necrozma’s speed is 43x3, and Naganadel’s Speed is 11 squared, which also makes it a prime power.
Whether the Cosmog family are Ultra Beasts is itself vague and disputed.
I think it's pretty clear they (& Necrozma) are Ultra Beasts but GameFreak/TPCi wants them to stand out from the Ultra Beasts, so no no no they aren't ultra beasts despite having all the signs (& sounds!) of one, they're Legendary pokemon whohappentobealiensfromthesameultrawormholesasultrabeasts dont worry about it.
They want this line drawn I assume for marketing reasons. UBs get treated as a set (& notably, are all legal for vgc and such), but a Legendary Pokemon can be placed here & there and get a more distinct spotlight put on them and lore.
Also good brand recognition by having all the UBs share the same ability.
eternatus is a ub too damn it no matter what the stats and category and origin say
They want this line drawn I assume for marketing reasons. UBs get treated as a set (& notably, are all legal for vgc and such), but a Legendary Pokemon can be placed here & there and get a more distinct spotlight put on them and lore.
Also good brand recognition by having all the UBs share the same ability.
I really love how with Galarian Slowbro and Zapdos GF seemingly realized they couldn't really top the base forms without making absolutely stupid upgrades so they decided to just have them do completely different things instead. Slowbro-G is a mixed tank compared to its purely bulky Kantonian form and Zapdos seems like it's going to be a physical Fighting type over the special attacking Electric original. At the same time they remain thematically cohesive with their originals what with Slowbro still having its iconic shell but just using it for a different purpose and Zapdos still having Electric properties and a similar design even though going from sparking birb to kicky birb is a bit more of a big leap. It's kinda like what they (intentionally or not) tried to do with Mega Garchomp but way, WAY more distinct.
This is ancient but you brought it up again recently in another thread and it's relevant here so I'll just say that another cool thing about Galarian Zapdos is that it goes back to keeping up this trend of more physically varied Fighting types with a cool terror bird/roadrunner-esque physique!
This is ancient but you brought it up again recently in another thread and it's relevant here so I'll just say that another cool thing about Galarian Zapdos is that it goes back to keeping up this trend of more physically varied Fighting types with a cool terror bird/roadrunner-esque physique!
To add ANOTHER layer on top of the "what is really an UB" debate, in the TCG there is a category for UBs Pokemon that have a label specifying as such, like this Buzzwole. The Solgaleo/Lunala lines do not have this label, neither does vanilla Necrozma but the Naganadel line does which would seem to make it fairly clear-cut....
....except that the fused formes of Necrozma ARE labelled as UBs. Does Necrozma "gain" UB qualities when fusing based on this framework? But why does this not apply to the prime number theory of the stat lines in the actual games? The conclusion is...is that's it's all one big inconsistent mess.
This is riffing off a post from the "Little Things You Dislike" thread, but this just reminded me of someone here saying "Zeraora is a Fighting type. You know it, I know it, and everyone who plays Pokemon knows it. The only ones who don't know it are Gamefreak themselves."
EDIT: shoutout to greentyphlosion:
....except that the fused formes of Necrozma ARE labelled as UBs. Does Necrozma "gain" UB qualities when fusing based on this framework? But why does this not apply to the prime number theory of the stat lines in the actual games? The conclusion is...is that's it's all one big inconsistent mess.
This is riffing off a post from the "Little Things You Dislike" thread, but this just reminded me of someone here saying "Zeraora is a Fighting type. You know it, I know it, and everyone who plays Pokemon knows it. The only ones who don't know it are Gamefreak themselves."
EDIT: shoutout to greentyphlosion:
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I mean, I share the view that those legendaries clearly are UBs. But I've seen a lot of people in the online fan sphere say firmly that they aren't.
Anyway, as an old enough fan to remember the "DP starters will be Psychic/Fighting/Dark instead of Grass/Fire/Water" rumours, I like that they used that classic matchup triangle for the Galarian birds, while also working in everything that everyone else has noted.
As I recall, the idea with Galarian Moltres is that it exudes so much evil/malice that your will to fight back feels like it's "burned" away.
On TRs: I didn't like them at first because it felt like a step back to put so many of the good moves on single-use machines again. Now that I know about the Watt Traders, I guess TRs are okay. Still not a big fan.
Anyway, as an old enough fan to remember the "DP starters will be Psychic/Fighting/Dark instead of Grass/Fire/Water" rumours, I like that they used that classic matchup triangle for the Galarian birds, while also working in everything that everyone else has noted.
As I recall, the idea with Galarian Moltres is that it exudes so much evil/malice that your will to fight back feels like it's "burned" away.
On TRs: I didn't like them at first because it felt like a step back to put so many of the good moves on single-use machines again. Now that I know about the Watt Traders, I guess TRs are okay. Still not a big fan.
They will now need to make sure from now on that there's an easy method to get TRs, so it is a step back in a way that its a good idea but yet another mechanic GF has to keep in mind when making a new game. The easiest thing they could do is just have Marts sell TRs if they could think of no other major way to hand them out. Also, just like they've done with TMs every generation, they'll likely mix up the TM and TR list so that moves are removed, added, and now switch between being a TM and TR. It all really depends on the progression of the game and what moves they want available to the player, especially in the case of TMs.
I know, but compared to the other two where their "twisted concept" still somewhat fitted their original concept, this "dark burning of your soul" feels a bit obtuse in execution if not a tad unoriginal.
It's more what R_N said, it's very specific branding. I double checked and the Cosmog family are indeed only thought to be Ultra Beasts; so as they mention and is presented in the TCG their status as Ultra Beasts is very much inconsequential in how they're branded. Seems like, much like with normal Pokemon, being a Legendary Pokemon outweighs being an Ultra Beast. Necrozma's fusions forms being classified as Ultra Beasts in the TCG likely has to do with Support Cards & Move/Poke-Power effects which involved Ultra Beasts; it may also be a way to try and have a version of Solgaleo, Lunala, and Necrozma that are Ultra Beasts while not having the three base forms be Ultra Beasts for marketing purposes, playing around a loop whole pretty much. But for in-game lore:
- Pure Ultra Beasts are Pokemon who have the Beast Boost Ability.
- Cosmog family are Legendaries first and foremost.
- Necrozma is a Legendary.
- Necrozma's forms are unnatural/unstable states of Necrozma when fused with Solgaleo/Lunala so therefore may be treated as Ultra Beasts but only for as long as they are fused.
Eh, like I wouldn't complain if it was revealed to be one but at the same time I do like that in the standard Pokemon universe we can still have strange alien creatures without needing them to have come from another dimension. Yes, thematically there's little difference, but story & lore wise they can use each differently. For interdimensional Pokemon like the Ultra Beasts they represent story opportunities of alternate histories, creating alien worlds/creatures/civilizations they don't really need to explain how they're possible, and "fish-out-of-water" scenarios and the havoc that comes from it. Meanwhile alien Pokemon like Eternatus and Deoxys represent story opportunities of apocalyptic proportion such as a meteor one of them are in heading toward the planet or them having landed on the planet thousands years ago and laying dormant building power until it's time to awaken (why did it take me this long to realize the Lavos comparison with Eternatus?). While obviously there can be crossover between the two, I think the knowledge that within ones own universe there are forces beyond control that can end everything from pure happenstance is more of a thrillingly engaging story than one from another dimension which provides more story opportunities one would rather explore.
Maybe, though once again I point out it isn't hard to figure out a BST which uses all prime numbers.
Forgive my ignorance but, what exactly is a "Ultra beast" supposed to be?
From what I understood, a Ultra Beast was just meant to be a Pokemon that isn't from our dimension.
Thus even though several share the Beast Boost ability, if Cosmog family & Necrozma do come from a different dimension, I see no conflict with their UB classification
From what I understood, a Ultra Beast was just meant to be a Pokemon that isn't from our dimension.
Thus even though several share the Beast Boost ability, if Cosmog family & Necrozma do come from a different dimension, I see no conflict with their UB classification
I think the issue with this is it opens up a couple other Pokémon to potentially being Ultra Beasts. Hoopa-Unbound has the power to warp and travel to other dimensions, which means it could very easily not be from the Pokémon World's own dimension. Arceus created all, including the various dimensions, which means it exists or existed outside of the dimension that the Pokémon World is in now. And depending on your definition, Palkia is the same as it invented space, and dimensions can be considered spatial.
The lore of Pokémon is so extensive and complicated that when it comes to classifying things, they give a shorthand way to be able to tell. Do you need an incense in order for it to come from an egg? Then it's a Baby Pokémon. Is it a 3-stage evolutionary family with a BST of 600 in its final form? Then it's a pseudo-legendary. Does it have the ability Beast Boost? Then it's an Ultra Beast. Without these kinds of shorthand rules everything gets muddied so they're always provided where relevant.
Damn, half the baby Pokémon are crying right now. ... Which, I mean, I guess isn't exactly uncommon for babies...
Baby Pokemon are surprisingly tricky to classify. Prevo introduced in a later gen? Nope, because Togepi/Riolu/apparently Toxel (why?). Not available in the wild; only by breeding? Nope, that one didn’t hold up either.
First-stage Pokemon that can evolve and can’t breed seems to be the best definition we’ve got.
First-stage Pokemon that can evolve and can’t breed seems to be the best definition we’ve got.
Cosmog and Kubfu are the BEST baby Pokemon.
Slight revision: they can't breed, but their evolution(s) can.
That said, I find the need to list qualifying qualities for different categories irritating. Baby Pokemon are Baby Pokemon because they're Baby Pokemon. Same goes for Legendary and Mythical. Pseudo-legendary is a fan-made term that just describes a trend and I hate it.
Trying to assign rules to this stuff is futile. Like Sakurai with Smash, any supposed rule only describes something Game Freak hasn't felt like doing yet.
They actually recently just did a series of merch for them in the Japanese store. In Japan the line is called "Taiki-Bansei" which roughly translates to "great talents mature late". The English site has translated it to a close English saying: "Late Bloomers".
Interesting, and very cute. Still doesn't change how I feel about the "rules" of them. Shit like being in the Slow experience group and having exactly 600 BST feel like they're just waiting for a new mon to come along and say "actually no" like Cosmog did with evolving legendaries. Just because the group is officially recognized doesn't mean the "rules" mean shit. They're Late Bloomers because they're Late Bloomers.They actually recently just did a series of merch for them in the Japanese store. In Japan the line is called "Taiki-Bansei" which roughly translates to "great talents mature late". The English site has translated it to a close English saying: "Late Bloomers".
Love that artwork. I have as my laptop's wallpaper. Seeing Metagross makes me wish there was more non-draconic Pseudo-legendaries.They actually recently just did a series of merch for them in the Japanese store. In Japan the line is called "Taiki-Bansei" which roughly translates to "great talents mature late". The English site has translated it to a close English saying: "Late Bloomers".
Not to really comment on shoving things into rules and patterns (cuz lord knows do we ever) but I do wonder if the...."late bloomer"....archetype ever would break the "600 BST final form" and "three stage line" molds
That seems innate to the concept. It's been 8 generations now and there's been plenty of shake ups:
-when you can obtain them
-when they evolve
-gen 3 had two of them, for some reason
-typing (Tyranitar & Metagross aren't dragon type, Goodra is monotype)
So the one thing linking all of them together is being a 3 stage line that ends in 600 BST. It's very specific at this point, like how starters are three stage GFW lines
It's like, Hydreigon is the gen 5 bloomer, not Haxorus or Volcarona, you know what I mean? Feels baked into their gameplay & design ethos.
e: Contrast this with Legendary pokemon which have gone all over the place ever since gen 2.
Gen 2: Roaming legends, after a generation where they were in static locations
Gen 3: Legends with gender. Also first version exclusive legends
Gen 4: a legend that can be either gender. Regigigas the first legend with "banned" bst that is otherwise not banned.
Gen 5: The "third legend" was weaker than its contemporaries (Rayquaza was 10 BST stronger, Giratina was equal, Kyurem was 20 less). Fusion, which also lead to the first legends to break the 680 "barrier"
Gen 6: No "trio" of related-but-weaker legendary pokemon.Zygarde didn't get a game
Gen 7: The "trio" was an outright quartet, first legend to evolve (two of them, even! And Cosmog is even a 3 stage line and has a split evolution)
Gen 8: The cover legends are the ones that get the super upgraded BST forms, not the "third" which in this case has a form literally unobtainable (outside of cameo in a special move)
I wouldn't be surprisd if gen 9 had a legend that could explicitly breed, which is otherwise a gimmick kept to Mythics ( Manaphy & Phione )
That seems innate to the concept. It's been 8 generations now and there's been plenty of shake ups:
-when you can obtain them
-when they evolve
-gen 3 had two of them, for some reason
-typing (Tyranitar & Metagross aren't dragon type, Goodra is monotype)
So the one thing linking all of them together is being a 3 stage line that ends in 600 BST. It's very specific at this point, like how starters are three stage GFW lines
It's like, Hydreigon is the gen 5 bloomer, not Haxorus or Volcarona, you know what I mean? Feels baked into their gameplay & design ethos.
e: Contrast this with Legendary pokemon which have gone all over the place ever since gen 2.
Gen 2: Roaming legends, after a generation where they were in static locations
Gen 3: Legends with gender. Also first version exclusive legends
Gen 4: a legend that can be either gender. Regigigas the first legend with "banned" bst that is otherwise not banned.
Gen 5: The "third legend" was weaker than its contemporaries (Rayquaza was 10 BST stronger, Giratina was equal, Kyurem was 20 less). Fusion, which also lead to the first legends to break the 680 "barrier"
Gen 6: No "trio" of related-but-weaker legendary pokemon.
Gen 7: The "trio" was an outright quartet, first legend to evolve (two of them, even! And Cosmog is even a 3 stage line and has a split evolution)
Gen 8: The cover legends are the ones that get the super upgraded BST forms, not the "third" which in this case has a form literally unobtainable (outside of cameo in a special move)
I wouldn't be surprisd if gen 9 had a legend that could explicitly breed, which is otherwise a gimmick kept to Mythics ( Manaphy & Phione )
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Thinking about it, "Late Bloomer" is probably the best term for them as it goes with the concept that these Pokemon all seemingly followed:
Basic Stage: Now the initial thought is that the Basic Stage is "weak", some dex entries even saying so and some even having limited movesets. However if you just looked at their stats outside all other factors there all 300 BST, which is only a few points shy of Starters and above most other Basic Stage Pokemon that can evolve. Now some do "over-specialize" putting a ton of points into one stat leaving the others balancing out what's left which may leave a "weak" appearance in a way. However, that's not why they're deemed weak. They're deemed weak via comparison because it takes them so long to evolve. Most 2-stage and even some 3-stage Pokemon will be fully evolved or close to evolving by the time these guys evolve to their Mid Stage. By the time your team is around maybe Level 20 or so there are likely dozens of stronger options at that point than babying along the Late Bloomer who are less and less abling to take hits or dish out the damage.
Mid Stage: And even when they do evolve they're probably STILL behind a dozen other Pokemon available at that point! When they evolve they only get +100 or so points and those points are used not to push up the one or two stats that was high but to mostly balance out the other stats! You're lucky if one of their base stat is over 100, but if it is that just means all the other stats are going to be lower than average. But, isolating them from other Pokemon, now most if not all the Late Bloomers are able to hold their own in battle, able to fight back (the ones who had limited moves now get a bigger moveset) and take some hits. And while they may not excel in any stat that does mean they most often then not aren't lacking in a stat, a jack-of-all-trades but master-of-none deal. If the Basic Stage was that stubborn seed that wouldn't grow, the Mid Stage is that bud that finally broke to the surface and is very slowly opening up.
Final Stage: And finally one day you walk outside to the astonishing site of a beautiful flower that demands the attention of anyone who catches a glimpse of it! Upon evolving they get a major BST boost up to 600, a lot of those points put into one stat and the others graciously spread into the other stats that the Pokemon cares about. They're now learning powerful moves after powerful moves and the dex description sings their praises.
So, yeah, 3-stage and BST 600 is probably something that can't change about them because it's the structure the concept the Late Bloomer is built upon. Even the Starters I would say has a greater chance of breaking away from the 3-stage to maybe do a 2-stage or a gimmicky mono-stage for a gen. Not saying there isn't a way to do it, of course, with all the mechanics Pokemon has introduced over the years I could easily think of a couple things that could be done to replicate the Later Bloomer structure with a 2-stage or mono Pokemon (form changes, Ability that activates at a certain Level like Wishiwashi does, effect of a Signature Move, using the "super mechanic" of that gen, etc.). Heck, I'd actually be more willing to bet that if they ever introduced a 4-stage or even 5-stage Pokemon it probably would be for the Late Bloomer just so they could either make the Basic Stage weaker or gradually increase the middle stage's BST, lol.
I'm betting one day they're going to have the Starters being the "children" of the Legendaries, revealing that certain members of the Starter species has the capability of transforming into the Legendary and the Legendary are able to breed more of the Starter species.
I'd also suggest that them having the Slow Exp group is also part of the concept of "requires a lot of effort to get rolling." That said, the Erratic group could also qualify (requiring higher investment at low levels, though it reaches 100 the fastest, it passes slow at around level 38), and is used for a mon with a similar concept (feebas and milotic, magikarp and gyarados are also Slow for reference). I do expect there to be some more discussion of terminology if we get a Late Bloomer that does not have the Slow experience group, since that is one of the notable reasons the category got called Pseudo-Legendary in the first place (every legendary/mythical/UB also has the Slow group, with the wierd exception of Mew and Celebi, which have the Medium Slow group instead)
This fucking picture.
I always thought that Absol getting Super Luck as an ability was either meant to synergize with its high-crit moves or a twisted joke about its reputation. Thinking about it, seeing an Absol is lucky because you get to know about a disaster before it happens.
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Super Luck seems to be given to luck-related Pokemon regardless of what kind of luck it is. The Togepi family is thought to be good luck, while the Murkrow family is thought to be bad luck. And then there's the Pidove family, which I imagine is probably because of some Japanese-specific pun that I don't know about.
As a bonus, here's a line from one of Unfezant's Pokedex entries that's fun to take out of context:
Big oof.