I am sure the Super Bidoof from Pokemon Rusty has helped as well.
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Little things you like about Pokémon
- Thread starter Kurona
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Just the amount of liveliness in Johto (and even Kanto) in GSC. Also feels like there's a lot to explore and learn.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
I like the layout of this screen in Platinum. It just makes you and your team look plain cool.
Yes and no. Remember that the archetypes aren't just defined by the look and design base of the Pokémon, but also its gameplay interaction. The regional birds have more in common than just being three-stage birds. It is also inherent to the archetype that they are among the first Pokémon you find, they usually start out with a Normal/Flying typing, and they evolve by level-up. The regional bugs have similar common denominators, although I think they have taken greater chances with this archetype recently, such as the cocoon stage not being completely useless and sticking around for a longer portion of your adventure. The regional rodents have all followed very similar gameplay patterns as well. Perhaps most notably in being a rather boring two-stage Pokémon, and the second stage has had a tendency to be one of the weakest fully evolved Pokémon of the generation.
And again, the problem is not so much the archetypes themselves, as the lack of non-archetypal Pokémon of those typings. I think it is a slight detriment to the Flying-type that all of their three-stage families share so many common denominators. If you want a powerful Flying-type, the regional bird is increasingly becoming your only option. To a certain degree, that's also becoming true of Bug, Fire, and Water. Normal barely receives powerful Pokémon anymore, because its "representation quota" is all filled up by archetypes that are intended to be crapmons by design (and adding insult to injury, the powerful Normal-types tend to have as their central gimmick the ability to change into another type).
There is also something to be said about how the archetypes, particularly in the early-game, makes the gameplay experience of each new region somewhat repetitive and predictable. We just know already that the first couple of routes of Gen IX will present you with a two-stage rodent-based Normal-type, a three-stage larvae-based Bug-type, and a three-stage bird-based Flying-type (this will be after you receive the Grass-, Water-, or Fire-type Pokémon that will evolve into something humanoid). There might be one or two new two-stage crapmons of other typings as well, plus a slew of old-generation Pokémon, mostly consisting of 'mons that were designed to follow those same patterns back in their days. And while I am aware that they have something going in their favour, such as introducing the player to evolution (Bug), being based off "backyard creatures" (rodent and bird), and (now somewhat obsolete) ensuring that the player knows how to get a Pokémon that learns Fly, I don't think they necessarily have to follow the patterns so closely.
They could throw in a cat, dog, or deer (or even a sheep) instead of the rodent - and it could be a three-stage family. The bug could be a beetle or centipede that evolves without a cocoon stage (like a three-stage Kricketot). The regional bird doesn't have to evolve if it has a form change gimmick (like Oricorio). And as for teaching new players about evolution through a bug with a cocoon stage ... the designers still fill the early routes with Caterpie and Weedle anyway, who do that job amiably and still come across like new Pokémon to new players. If a player needs a larvae-pupae-insect Pokémon to make them understand evolution, Caterpie will probably be a novelty to them and there's no strict need for a new regional bug.
All in all, the archetypes make the new generations awfully samey and predictable if you take a step back. While they have a purpose, I think there is room for a lot more variation while still fulfilling that purpose.
Hm, well, while they are still generally following the archetypes you mentioned, it does look like they are also starting to use the old gen archetypes mons to expand what's available. Would be neat if they decided that, at least for one gen, to just use past mons to fill out most of the archetypes (except for the Starters, Legendaries, and Pikaclone; they ain't giving that money up) freeing up more "new mon slots" to do whatever they feel like (notably more 3-stage families). That said, there may still be come archetypes that are done anyway simply because the creator wanted to make a Pokemon like that (and these archetypes are ones I have problem calling archetypes for a reason unlike the gen rodent/bug/bird):
2-stage Cutesy Normal
Stand-Alone Bird
Stand-Alone Normal
2-Stage Fossil
2-Stage of Each Type
Heck, they may still even make a new Pseudo-Legend cause they're awesome to make (and they make money). Also, if they just so happen to make a 3-stage bird or bug, or a 2-stage rodent, what would they have to do with them to not be counted as "gen bug/bird/rodent"? Be good? But we've gotten gen bug/bird/rodent that are "good" yet they're still considered the gen bug/bird/rodent.
I'm not saying these archetypes doesn't exist... BUT at the same time I want to point out these archetypes are also VERY easy to fall into. Like, the only way I can at most see them try to circumvent that is by making them available "out-of-order", like the non-gen bird/bug/rodent coming halfway/later in the game and the pseudo being available early on... but then these "archetypes" would feel REALLY superficial is that's suddenly the reason these new Pokemon who otherwise would have been classified as them aren't.
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Please please please please fix your archetype spelling.
Funny thing is, Gen 5 actually did this. Lillipup and Purrloin are both early route Pokémon in BW1 and BW2: the former is a dog, and the latter is a cat. Stoutland takes after Pidgeot and Staraptor in that it's a three-stage evo line that acts as a quasi-starter of sorts, evolving once at Level 16 and again in the 30s. Liepard is like the rodents in that it evolves once at Level 20 and has a BST closer to them (420) and is designed to be one of the weaker Gen 5 mons who falls off eventually as the game goes on.
Problem is, despite having Liepard and Stoutland, they still felt an obligation to have a rodent and a bird exist alongside them too. They still put in Patrat and Pidove despite the dog and cat already fulfilling the early route introductory mon slots with a new spin on them, and they put them in there and made no attempts to make them interesting or unique: Patrat and Pidove are a huge step down from Bidoof and Starly who were actually fun and interesting both in-game and design wise, and to this day Patrat and Pidove are still the most boring, useless, and uninspired of all the generational rodents and birds. It's no surprise that they are, to this day, considered the worst of their respective archetypes, even worse than Rattata and Pidgey in some respects. You could get rid of both Patrat and Pidove from the Gen 5 roster and just keep Lillipup and Purrloin and you really lose nothing of value in the process.
Gen 3 even put in a Dark-type introductory Pokémon before Liepard ever existed in the form of Poochyena and Mightyena who are hyenas. Even so, Linoone still exists alongside it. Granted, Linoone is kind of an interesting Pokémon both design wise and in battle, unlike Watchog, so I can let Linoone slide.
Generally the archetypes you mentioned are available on the very first few routes of the game. No matter how good or bad they are, they are among the first few Pokémon you will ever meet on your adventure, and have commonalities that define their archetype. Even with the variations within the archetypes, they all have similarities.
The 2-stage rodents/mammals evolve once at Level 15-20ish, have around 420ish BST (except Greedent), and are generally at their full potential early but fall off, being one of the weaker fully evolved Pokémon in the long term. Diggersby may be "good", but it's still a generational early route mammal in that it follows the other trends and has a low BST (it's only good because of its Hidden Ability, in-game it still sucks and falls off).
The regional bird archetype is also defined by being in the first few routes of the game. It's a Flying-type that is obtained early. That being said, there are really two sub-classes of the early route bird archetype over the generations:
The Pidgeys: Pidgey, Starly, Pidove, Fletchling, Pikipek, Rookidee
The Spearows: Spearow, Hoothoot, Taillow, Wingull
It's important to remember that Gen 1 really had two types of early route bird: Pidgey and Spearow, but both are very different. The former class are the Pidgey sub-archetype: 3-stage early bird that evolves once at around Level 14-18 (21 in Pidove's case), then evolves again in the 30s. These Pokémon also tend to be in the Medium Slow exp group (Pikipek being an exception). These Pokémon are designed as a quasi-starter of sorts, evolving around the same time as your starter and serving as a Pokémon who is viable enough to serve your needs through the whole game. While you will inevitably ditch your early rodent/mammal and bug, the Pidgey sub-class of bird is a Pokémon you will probably keep and use throughout the whole game. This makes them highly desirable candidates for a team, as these survey results have more or less shown, since Pidgeot, Staraptor, Talonflame, and Corviknight all achieved high amounts of popularity in their respective games as the most used team pick.
On the other hand, the Spearow sub-archetype is a 2-stage bird that evolves once at ~Level 20, and tends to have lower overall base stats than those in the Pidgey sub-archetype. They are almost always in the Medium Fast exp group (except Taillow) and are a bit weak compared to the Pidgeys, and they will probably fall off later on and be replaced by something better like Dodrio or Altaria, making them closer to the rodents.
Gens 2 and 3 had Noctowl, Swellow, and Pelipper who lean entirely on the Spearow sub-class, while every Gen since 4 has had a bird that takes more after Pidgey, being a three-stage evo line that acts as a quasi-starter and grows with you over the adventure.
As for the bugs, it is also them being on the first route, that being said, they have deviated more from the early bloomer gimmick that the older first route bugs have had. Vikavolt and Orbeetle are both on the first route of their respective debut games but reach their full potential later while they are strong enough to be viable late in the game. Leavanny and Scolipede *sort* of fit the archetype for Gen 5 but they evolve quite late: that being said, compared to other Gen 5 mons, they still do evolve pretty early compared to the rest of the Gen 5 roster.
Platinum Gible would like to have a word. Not to mention Goomy in XY is a mid-game Pokémon, and even way back in Gen 1 RBY Dratini can feasibly be obtained mid-game, possibly by the 4th Gym if you go out of your way to do so.
And even then, the gimmick of the pseudo-legendary isn't necessarily that they're always obtained late, but it's that they evolve late and reach their maximum potential later than everyone else, but is super strong when they do, among the best in the game. All of them have the highest evo level of every mon in their generation, are in the slow EXP group, end up with 600 BST in their final form, and has a consistent catch rate throughout the whole line. Even though Gible is obtained early, it reaches its final form as Garchomp later than any Gen 4 Pokémon does, and in that context you will not have a fully evolved Garchomp until close to the 8th Gym in DP and Platinum. Most of the pseudos are a long and tedious grind, and you won't get their fully evolved forms until the very end of their debut games or close to it otherwise, close to when you're ready to face the Champion.
As for the others, having a bird/bug/rodent showing up later would kill their place in the archetype in the first place. Their whole schtick is that they're obtained in the first few routes.
Interestingly enough, there is a "Pidgey" in Gen II as well, albeit only in Crystal. Hoppip actually fits most of the descriptions of a regional bird in that game. It is a three-stage Flying-type Pokémon available on the very first Route, it evolves by level-up around the same levels as your starter (levels 18 and 27), and its BST of 250 is just 1 point behind that of Pidgey (at 450, Jumpluff is 19 behind Pidgeot).
Granted, it doesn't learn Fly, so it is not a very good regional bird, and its Pokédex placement doesn't quite match the archetype, but if you're looking for "the Pidgey" in Pokémon Crystal, Hoppip will mostly fit the bill. Sort-of.
The Mind Electric
Calming if you look at it right.
It's also like the Pidgey line in the sense that it kinda sucks. It's got good speed, but its other stats are pretty bad. I have never felt or actually been threatened by a Jumpluff.
And you can get Dratini before the 3rd badge in GS, possibly HGSS too (I don't remember).
Good luck getting a Dragonite before Kanto, though.
Less of a like but more of something interesting I noticed. The three-stage slow evolving Pokemon have multiple different names:
English Fan Name: Pseudo-Legendaries
Japanese Fan Name: 600 Club
Official Name: Late Bloomers (Revealed fairly recently)
I am curious what fans call them in other languages.
English Fan Name: Pseudo-Legendaries
Japanese Fan Name: 600 Club
Official Name: Late Bloomers (Revealed fairly recently)
I am curious what fans call them in other languages.
In France, we call them pseudo legendaries too !
Just to note, "Late Bloomers" was just a product line they had featuring the Pseudos. It is a recognition of them being a group, but I don't think that's an official group name for them. I know a few people here doesn't like them, the few times I mentioned it outside of the product got a lot of complaints of "don't call them Late Bloomers". I don't have a problem with the name, but I guess others do, maybe they don't like the "bloomer" part?
Anyway, I do kind of wish they did make an official group name for them though. Pseudo Legendary implies they are "lesser" than Legendaries which is a tad bit disrespectful to them as they're not only stronger then a lot of Legendaries but it unfairly makes you compare them to the Legendaries with higher BST when they're just rarer com mons.
Pseudo-Legendary is not even that inaccurate at this point.
600 BST non-special (special as in either Legendary, Mythical or Ultra Beast) Pokémon should have an official designation, at least as far as the final stage of each of them are concerned. “Powerful” is vague and applies to actual Legendary Pokémon, and Late Bloomers would also end up applying to other Pokémon that evolves as late as a 600 BST line (i.e. Larvesta to Volcarona, for example).
My term for the 600 BST lines, or the fully evolved forms at the very least, would be Exceptional, referring their 600 BST not reached by other non-special Pokémon.
600 BST non-special (special as in either Legendary, Mythical or Ultra Beast) Pokémon should have an official designation, at least as far as the final stage of each of them are concerned. “Powerful” is vague and applies to actual Legendary Pokémon, and Late Bloomers would also end up applying to other Pokémon that evolves as late as a 600 BST line (i.e. Larvesta to Volcarona, for example).
My term for the 600 BST lines, or the fully evolved forms at the very least, would be Exceptional, referring their 600 BST not reached by other non-special Pokémon.
Deleted User 465389
Banned deucer.
the wind arrives at a unusual time today…
Sky Stream/Towering Perfection Alt Arts;
(which’ll be updated with better images when they come out(edit 1; better images time))
Sky Stream/Towering Perfection Alt Arts;
(which’ll be updated with better images when they come out(edit 1; better images time))
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The Pokemon anime falsely advertised the Pidgeot line as awesome lol.
Tbf the Mega Evolution made Pidgeot much better...
Wait, we're talking about the anime overhyping a mon whose best stat is a ~90 speed, and it's Pidgeot? Dude's got over a 150 BST advantage over the prime example.
The Pidgey line IS awesome... battle capabilities notwithstanding, of course.
Tbf it does partially depend on the game.
RBY? Pass.
GSC? Actually not bad, the late evolution into Pidgeot (for the game) is the only annoyance, and careful training and timing can bypass that. Badge boosts make Pidgeot considerably stronger than in other games, basically close to a free Life Orb boost sans the item or damage.
FR/LG? Not bad, but not good either, they really lack strength against the E4 or similar, Fearow and Dodrio are much better.
HG/SS? Pass, albeit Roost survivability saves them compared to RBY.
ORAS? Idk.
SM/USUM? Idk, are they even in those games?
Never played beyond that.
Only through trade, just like oras. It would probably underperform over both regional birds though (swellow and toucannon, though even pelipper has more use than pidgey imo). I don't think it'd be the worst thing ever but certainly not worth a trade
I like the Villa in Platinum. The Battle Zone is a sick post game area, and I like that you have this swanky place to go back to after your Battle Frontier challenges.
I also like that it's alleged to have belonged to Steven previously. As if it's handed down from one champion to another. Makes it seem more prestigious.
I also like that it's alleged to have belonged to Steven previously. As if it's handed down from one champion to another. Makes it seem more prestigious.