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Other Looking Ahead to Gen VI Mark II (SEE POSTS #818 & #858)
- Thread starter GCSChris
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But I don't think it will really succeed as a wall, or at least not an OU wall. Walls need resistances to work with their respectable bulk (see Ferrothorn, Jellicent, Celebi, Skarmory, etc) or they can be the rare case where their bulk is phenomenal enough to carry itself (Blissey, Chansey). The issue is Sylveon has slightly-better-than Jellicent Special bulk, but its only noteworthy resistances (in this meta at least are Fighting and that Dragon immunity, since the two most used Dark moves will never hit it on switching in (Purzuit and Sucker Punch, though I guess it can tank a Ttar Crunch if it has Def investment). I just doubt its Special bulk can tank enough hits with so few resistances to really make an impact in OU, even with the Dragon immunity. I guess it has nice lastability due to resisting Pursuit, something which almost no Special tank resists anymore (Special Ferro, SpD Rotom-W and Blissey are neutral but Latias, Jellicent Celebi and Jirachi are all weak now) but if that Ttar is trying to open holes for, say, Keldeo, I doubt that withot that Water resist Sylveon can tank too many hits UNLESS it has an unknown defensive ability, even with Wish/Protect. Also, if Fairy is as good as we think it will be in the meta, and amazing Fairy greats are running around like Mega Mawile or Azumarill, I feel like saying Fairies can switch in on Choiced Dragons is dumb; no one will use Choiced Dragon moves until he opposing Fairies are des.
Again, it gets Moonblast+Shadow Ball which makes it a great bulky attacker but it is so damn slow. It also probably has shallow coverage moves like most Eeveelutions.
You aren't actually required to run max SpD on Sylveon either. Neutral 252/16 is enough to avoid the 2HKO from LO Zam's Psychic, for example. Investing in physical bulk with a bold nature allows it to avoid the 2HKO from LO Latios' Psyshock 80% of the time, 100 if you're rocking Protect. Specs Latios is another story, but we really don't want to be spamming choiced psychic now do we?
Meanwhile, physically offensive mons with less than perfect coverage (ie dragons without additional STAB) will fail to even come close to OHKOing. Sylveon could comfortable run Wish / Protect / Fairy / HP Ground and do work.
Edit: Sylveon would make a fantastic core with Tar and Skarm. Between the three, you've got Spikes, SR, Sand, Wish support, Phazing, and extreme bulk on all sides to check the vast majority of OU. There would obviously be a few stray threats to cover, but that can easily be managed with the remaining 3 slots whether it be bulky offense or stall.
Meanwhile, physically offensive mons with less than perfect coverage (ie dragons without additional STAB) will fail to even come close to OHKOing. Sylveon could comfortable run Wish / Protect / Fairy / HP Ground and do work.
Edit: Sylveon would make a fantastic core with Tar and Skarm. Between the three, you've got Spikes, SR, Sand, Wish support, Phazing, and extreme bulk on all sides to check the vast majority of OU. There would obviously be a few stray threats to cover, but that can easily be managed with the remaining 3 slots whether it be bulky offense or stall.
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Steel / Dark / Fairy looks to be the FWG gen of 6th gen, with only Water and Fire not being resisted between the three of these types.
I see an offensive core of Ttar pangoro and gardevoir to see some usage.
You forgot Ground and Electric.
Don't forget about Electric and Ground, which hit these types neutrally.
While we're speculating, I think another good core would be Milotic / Tyranitar / Skarmory or Celebi. It's not unreasonable to assume that Milotic will gain the Fairy type (it's monotype as is, and so far they've been the only ones to get a retype), and it would make it a truly difficult pokemon to take down.
Milotic@Leftovers
Calm; 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
Scald
Recover
Ice Beam
95+ Fairy Move
Meet the rain / dragon check of the century, folks. Fairy typing is all that Milotic needs to once again become relevant in OU, and it retains utility with decently powered attacks (236 SpA on a wall is nothing to sneeze at) and distribution of burns to the opposing team via Scald.
252 SpA Choice Specs Rain Hydro Pump vs. 252 / 56+ Milotic: (39.59% - 46.70%)
0 SpA 95 Power Attack vs. 4 / 0 Keldeo: (69.14% - 82.10%)
Yeah that's right, Milotic is avoiding a 2HKO from the most powerful water-type attacker in OU, with rocks, and crippling it with an attack of its own in return. Secret Sword is a pitiful 30% max. Milotic can Recover stall for a miss or force Keldeo out and win every time. The only problem is, Milotic is essentially helpless against Starmie's Thunder...but some smart play with Tyranitar or another team member can get you around that.
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 / 200 Milotic: (69.14% - 82.10%)
That's probably the strongest immediate attack of any dragon I can think of that Milotic would face on the physical side, with the exception of Kyurem-B for obvious reasons. Keep in mind that Milotic does 88% minimum to 4 / 0 Garchomp with Ice Beam, essentially a OHKO. The point here isn't that Milotic "walls" Garchomp, but that it would have to predict perfectly to win. SDChomp makes things complicated, but that destroys any wall and you have Skarmory. The situation is almost identical for Terrakion. And without a CB (so Scarf or whatever), neither can even 2HKO. Extend this to Salamence, Dragonite...you get the picture. And Milotic isn't weak to Steel like most Fairies, either. Marvel Scale is an added bonus. I would pick up Milotic in a heartbeat if this ends up being the case.
like we needed another viable bulky water
Ah, whoops my bad. These weaknesses are pretty easy to patch for the rest of the team, as throwing on something like Latias or any levitating dragon will work to cover it. Its also assuming that the fairy/dark/steel pokes themselves won't have secondary typings. If they do, it'll become a great core.
breloom is walled by every grass type besides ferrothorn in ou now that it can't spore. grass types being immune to powders and spore nerfs grass types ironically.
Yeah, it's quite funny actually. I mean, Venusaur is great now that it quad resists Breloom's Bullet Seed, resists Mach Punch and is immune to Spore... BUT Venusaur will struggle to put things to sleep itself with Sleep Powder, thanks to other Grass types being immune (and thus acting as the opposing team's 'Sleep-Absorber'. Celebi in particular is really going to shut down any attempts from the opposing team to put stuff to sleep next gen; Venusaur and Breloom are the main sleepers in OU, and it beats them handily in most circumstances.
It sounds broken as fuck depending on how high the chances of freezing are. Significant makes it sound like its somewhere around 50%.
Freeze Dry is exactly what Ice-types need. I mean, they've gotten no love on type matchups so may as well show off their hyper offensive nature. I doubt Freeze Dry will be too overpowered; it'll either linger around 50-60 power or have decent power with 50-55 accuracy.
Hopefully they give it to Glaceon!
Hopefully they give it to Glaceon!
Don't have a lot of thoughts on Freeze Dry, but I'd like to comment on Grass-types being immune to Spore and the Powder move: Venusaur will still run train on every Grass-type not named Ferrothorn. Sludge Bomb is getting better in VI thanks to Fairies and it crushes even SpDef Celebi at +2, so even with Grass-types acting as a pseudo sleep absorber Venusaur will still be powerful.
Freeze Dry won't be much of an issue. It's certainly no Scald. Ice-types can't be frozen and Fire-types can defrost themselves, so let's put them to work if freeze is an issue. Mamoswine and Heatran wouldn't mind a free switch.
I'm hoping that there is something like this for Fire as well. Not the status effect but the hitting a normally resisted type Super Effectively. Hitting Water would be ideal because they really need to be hit with the nerf stick and it would negate the drop to Fire's power in Rain by hitting neutrally. Wishful thinking though. GF has already introduced the concept of boiling water, so why not add something that can cause it?
I've actually been prepping for XY by breeding some Pokemon like Bold DW Eevee because, if Sylveon's supposed stats check out, Sylveon could be really good. It's OU chances are really all banking on that DW ability, but Sylveon is basically Umbreon with Vaporeon's Sp.Atk and a way better typing. Magic Guard or Natural Cure would be absolutely ideal, but Wonder Skin or Frisk seems more likely. A 50% chance of dodging any status would be nice while Frisk is a fantastic ability in any unstable metagame.
But on the topic of Fairy, I realized how common Tentacruel is likely to be. Resists Fairy, neutral to Mawile's Steel, resists everything Azumarill can toss its way, Rain Dish recovery, access to both Sludge Wave for Azumarill and Acid Spray to chew through Sylveon's defenses. Steel-types are likely going to be the primary answer to Fairy, but having a Pokemon like Tentacruel in your pocket will be handy as well. Tenta just gets better and better with each generation.
Well if it has Growth, Sludge Bomb, & Giga Drain, that leaves one slot for Sleep Powder, Earthquake, or HP Fire.
Sleep Powder is not worth being walled by every Steel-type.
To add to that further, Venusaur isn't threatened by Fairy. Why would it need to hit them super effectively when it can just Giga Drain to recover off any damage they do? Unless a Pokemon's job is to wall or remove Fairy, it doesn't need a way to take them out instantly.
I'm hoping that there is something like this for Fire as well. Not the status effect but the hitting a normally resisted type Super Effectively. Hitting Water would be ideal because they really need to be hit with the nerf stick and it would negate the drop to Fire's power in Rain by hitting neutrally. Wishful thinking though. GF has already introduced the concept of boiling water, so why not add something that can cause it?
I've actually been prepping for XY by breeding some Pokemon like Bold DW Eevee because, if Sylveon's supposed stats check out, Sylveon could be really good. It's OU chances are really all banking on that DW ability, but Sylveon is basically Umbreon with Vaporeon's Sp.Atk and a way better typing. Magic Guard or Natural Cure would be absolutely ideal, but Wonder Skin or Frisk seems more likely. A 50% chance of dodging any status would be nice while Frisk is a fantastic ability in any unstable metagame.
But on the topic of Fairy, I realized how common Tentacruel is likely to be. Resists Fairy, neutral to Mawile's Steel, resists everything Azumarill can toss its way, Rain Dish recovery, access to both Sludge Wave for Azumarill and Acid Spray to chew through Sylveon's defenses. Steel-types are likely going to be the primary answer to Fairy, but having a Pokemon like Tentacruel in your pocket will be handy as well. Tenta just gets better and better with each generation.
Well if it has Growth, Sludge Bomb, & Giga Drain, that leaves one slot for Sleep Powder, Earthquake, or HP Fire.
Sleep Powder is not worth being walled by every Steel-type.
To add to that further, Venusaur isn't threatened by Fairy. Why would it need to hit them super effectively when it can just Giga Drain to recover off any damage they do? Unless a Pokemon's job is to wall or remove Fairy, it doesn't need a way to take them out instantly.
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Katakiri, Tentacruel resists Steel moves. Also, the only Fire-types that can defrost themselves are those with any of Flame Wheel, Sacred Fire, Flare Blitz, Fusion Flare, and Scald, so basically Infernape and Arcanine (the ones that are even remotely relevant to OU i mean). Finally, Venusaur isn't using Sleep Power much anyway, and it isn't afraid of any Grass-type as at +2 it can beat all of them. Venusaur doesn't care at all about sleep moves getting nerfed, while he loves the ability to switch into any of Breloom's moves.
I think you misunderstood what I said. Thanks to Sludge Bomb Venusaur still won't be worrying about Grass-types even if they are immune to Sleep Powder.
I don't think Venusaur will struggle against any grass poke... i mean, Venusaur is Poison/Grass, so any grass move won't do shit, and let's not forget it has STAB Sludge Bomb and/or at least Hidden Power Fire (under sun, let's not forget that).
Edit: beaten ...
All we need is a Poison move that does the same to steel pokes and we're set.
Edit: beaten ...
All we need is a Poison move that does the same to steel pokes and we're set.
Venusaur can also get away with running Sludge Bomb / Earthquake / HP Fire / Growth and doing just fine, since its coverage attacks hit the things that resist Sludge Bomb and its Poison STAB is more powerful than Giga Drain. Obviously, you lose longevity, but I find this to be the more powerful set of Venusaur's options and it only gets more useful with Fairy type on the scene.
The grass buff might hurt sub seed Venusaur, but offensive variants can do their job perfectly without sleep powder
Venusaur wouldn't like losing to the likes of slowbro, politoed, hippowdon and chansey/blissey.. at least for this gen, Giga Drain should be the main move over Sludge Bomb
On another note, I wonder what other goodies ice-types will get, if any. The new rock/ice pokemon better have some other things going for it, otherwise it'll be deadweight against breloom/conk/scizor/lucario/infernape
On another note, I wonder what other goodies ice-types will get, if any. The new rock/ice pokemon better have some other things going for it, otherwise it'll be deadweight against breloom/conk/scizor/lucario/infernape
252/0 Neutral Slowbro can be OHKO'd by +2 Sludge Bomb, and if Chansey gains the Fairy type it is 2HKOd. Hippo is a good point though.
As for Aurorus, I would immediately dismiss any hopes that it will be relevant in OU. Freeze Dry is awesome, yes, but its weaknesses are far too crippling for it to see any regular use. If anything, I'd expect Tyrantus to have more of a niche, what with the SpD boost from Sandstorm.
As for Aurorus, I would immediately dismiss any hopes that it will be relevant in OU. Freeze Dry is awesome, yes, but its weaknesses are far too crippling for it to see any regular use. If anything, I'd expect Tyrantus to have more of a niche, what with the SpD boost from Sandstorm.
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