Magmortar (Update)

[cim]

What benchmark would that be? If you're going to lower the Speed to a better benchmark at least tell us what it is.

The benchmark with that spread is Base 73 Speed. Who runs that?

HeY, when you suggest EV spreads, you have to calculate the stats and find them out. I'm serious here. It's been a problem, like, 4 times for you.

Keep 232.

 

[Heysup]

The benchmark with that spread is Base 73 Speed. Who runs that?

HeY, when you suggest EV spreads, you have to calculate the stats and find them out. I'm serious here.

The new spread is still faster, but I lowered the speed a bit so that it would reach a better (imo) benchmark, and maintaining a good chance to beat the Pokemon in didnt without the extra attack. It outspeeds Honchkrow, Blaziken, and Absol still.

 

[Cosmic Jeff]

How well does Hidden Power Ice work in UU? Has anybody tried Hidden Power Water?

 

[cim]

@Heysup: It doesn't even outspeed Absol. And it's way more important to beat LO Milotic.

 

[Heysup]

Adamant Absol's Speed: 249
LO Milotic's Speed: 212
196 Magmortar's Speed: 251

I dont quite understand Chris, it outspeeds / beats everything you mentioned.

 

[franky]

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Flare Blitz
move 2: Cross Shop / Focus Punch
move 3: Thunder Punch
move 4: Overheat / Earthquake
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Atk / 6 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]

Not analysis, just me describing it first-person view.

Hey, it's worth a shot and its base 95 Atk + 120 Base STAB can't be wasted. The set just nails Chansey switch ins with Flare Blitz scoring a OHKO. Most Chansey's switch in and expect a Fire Blast. Regirock being one of its common switch ins no longer shrugs off Life Orb Cross Chops from standard Magmortar. It suffers 51.65% - 60.99% from Cross Shop which has a very high chance of 2HKOing it. Your promised a clea 2HKO without leftovers. Thunder Punch covers Water-types and 2HKO's Milotic w/ SR down dealing 46.19% - 54.82% to 252 HP / 252 Def Milotic. The last slot handles Steelix easily and has a very high chance of OHKOing 252 HP / 252 SpD Steelix which deals around 87.01% - 103.39%.

Tested it and it actually hurts Chansey the most and it racks me up a Chansey everytime I use this. Their initial switch in would be Fire Blast.

 

[Heysup]

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Flare Blitz
move 2: Cross Shop / Focus Punch
move 3: Thunder Punch
move 4: Overheat / Earthquake
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Atk / 6 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]

Not analysis, just me describing it first-person view.

Hey, it's worth a shot and its base 95 Atk + 120 Base STAB can't be wasted. The set just nails Chansey switch ins with Flare Blitz scoring a OHKO. Most Chansey's switch in and expect a Fire Blast. Regirock being one of its common switch ins no longer shrugs off Life Orb Cross Chops from standard Magmortar. It suffers 51.65% - 60.99% from Cross Shop which has a very high chance of 2HKOing it. Your promised a clea 2HKO without leftovers. Thunder Punch covers Water-types and 2HKO's Milotic w/ SR down dealing 46.19% - 54.82% to 252 HP / 252 Def Milotic. The last slot handles Steelix easily and has a very high chance of OHKOing 252 HP / 252 SpD Steelix which deals around 87.01% - 103.39%.

Tested it and it actually hurts Chansey the most and it racks me up a Chansey everytime I use this. Their initial switch in would be Fire Blast.

I'd use Mach Punch in the last slot, but...

What does this do that CB Blaziken doesnt? CB Blaziken has a STAB 120 BP Fighting attack, Stone Edge, and not to mention it has 25 higher base attack. Blaziken also doesn't have a Stealth Rock weakness. The only advantage I see here is Speed and imo it isnt worth it.

 

[franky]

I'd use Mach Punch in the last slot, but...

What does this do that CB Blaziken doesnt? CB Blaziken has a STAB 120 BP Fighting attack, Stone Edge, and not to mention it has 25 higher base attack. Blaziken also doesn't have a Stealth Rock weakness. The only advantage I see here is Speed and imo it isnt worth it.

Destroying your counters. Blaziken is different because it has a second typing which is Fighting and it threatens guys like Regirock and Chansey. Where as Magmortar usually utilizes more SpA than Attack thus forcing Regirock to switch in alot easier not having to fear getting too much damage from an unstabbed Fighting-type move. Slapping a CB nails in Regirock with a hefty amount of damage. Chansey loves to switch in on Fire Blast's that's where Flare Blitz or Super Power comes in. Blaziken is different because guys like Chansey and Regirock are scared too switch in. The point is they remove different pokemons with an element of surprise. Also I forgot to add Earthquake nailing Flare-Fire pokemon such as Ninetales and Arcanine.

 

[Valantaro]

you have your attack EVs and SpA EVs mixed up on the mixed set.

It's 252 Atk / 24 SpA not 24 Atk / 252 SpA

252 Atk EVs for just Cross Chop ?__?

Sorry for double posting, but alot of changes haven't been updated, like the one I posted above this post.

Anyway, on to more important things. I'm mainly posting to say that I think this set:

[SET]
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Fire Blast
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Cross Chop
item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
nature: Mild
EVs: 24 Atk / 252 SpA / 232 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]

Should look like this:

[SET]
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Fire Blast
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Cross Chop
item: Life Orb
nature: Mild
EVs: 60 Atk / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]

I don't like Expert Belt as an option, you are on a timer anyway with Stealth Rock, and Expert Belt makes you lose out on many KOes. When you're switching in with 25% damage done, you aren't living through anything tbh.

The new spread is still faster, but I lowered the speed a bit so that it would reach a better (imo) benchmark, and maintaining a good chance to beat the Pokemon in didnt without the extra attack. It outspeeds Honchkrow, Blaziken, and Absol now.

Does 60 Atk EVs do anything specific? It does look good, and I agree with Life Orb > Expert Belt.

What benchmark would that be? If you're going to lower the Speed to a better benchmark at least tell us what it is.

The benchmark with that spread is Base 73 Speed. Who runs that?

HeY, when you suggest EV spreads, you have to calculate the stats and find them out. I'm serious here. It's been a problem, like, 4 times for you.

Keep 232.

How well does Hidden Power Ice work in UU? Has anybody tried Hidden Power Water?

Hidden Power for what though. Rhydon is the only thing I can see it being made a case for. I guess I could mention it.

Adamant Absol's Speed: 249
LO Milotic's Speed: 212
196 Magmortar's Speed: 251

I dont quite understand Chris, it outspeeds / beats everything you mentioned.

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Flare Blitz
move 2: Cross Shop / Focus Punch
move 3: Thunder Punch
move 4: Overheat / Earthquake
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Atk / 6 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]

Not analysis, just me describing it first-person view.

Hey, it's worth a shot and its base 95 Atk + 120 Base STAB can't be wasted. The set just nails Chansey switch ins with Flare Blitz scoring a OHKO. Most Chansey's switch in and expect a Fire Blast. Regirock being one of its common switch ins no longer shrugs off Life Orb Cross Chops from standard Magmortar. It suffers 51.65% - 60.99% from Cross Shop which has a very high chance of 2HKOing it. Your promised a clea 2HKO without leftovers. Thunder Punch covers Water-types and 2HKO's Milotic w/ SR down dealing 46.19% - 54.82% to 252 HP / 252 Def Milotic. The last slot handles Steelix easily and has a very high chance of OHKOing 252 HP / 252 SpD Steelix which deals around 87.01% - 103.39%.

Tested it and it actually hurts Chansey the most and it racks me up a Chansey everytime I use this. Their initial switch in would be Fire Blast.

It's mentioned in OO, but if everyone agrees it should be added for surprise value, I don't see why not

 

[Heysup]

Destroying your counters. Blaziken is different because it has a second typing which is Fighting and it threatens guys like Regirock and Chansey. Where as Magmortar usually utilizes more SpA than Attack thus forcing Regirock to switch in alot easier not having to fear getting too much damage from an unstabbed Fighting-type move. Slapping a CB nails in Regirock with a hefty amount of damage. Chansey loves to switch in on Fire Blast's that's where Flare Blitz or Super Power comes in. Blaziken is different because guys like Chansey and Regirock are scared too switch in. The point is they remove different pokemons with an element of surprise. Also I forgot to add Earthquake nailing Flare-Fire pokemon such as Ninetales and Arcanine.

Chansey isnt going to switch into Magmortar knowing it gets owned by Cross Chop from the LO variant, so I think that argument's invalid still.


The only mildly valid thing I see is Regirock's switching in, but it isnt going to be 2HKOed on average w/o Stealth Rock, and the damage is very unimpressive in general.

I think this set is:

a) too gimmicky
b) outclassed by LO versions of Magmortar
c) outclassed by Blaziken

Making it other options material. I was told once that if your set was based on surprise factor that it was definitely OO material, so I'll stand by that.

 

[franky]

Yeah, I just felt I had to bring it up, set or other options it needs some recognition because I tested this set out and it nails me Chansey most of the time. I got one Regirock but I'm a little iffy with it myself. Although it brings a surprise factor, your right.

 

[Heysup]

Yeah, I just felt I had to bring it up, set or other options it needs some recognition because I tested this set out and it nails me Chansey most of the time. I got one Regirock but I'm a little iffy with it myself. Although it brings a surprise factor, your right.

I do think it should get a bigger mention in OO though, so it was good that you brought it up. The surprise factor can really help certain teams, and gimmicks are always great to eliminate a major weakness.

Now back to the spread thing:

I don't know why LN wants you to waste all of those Atk EVs when you arent really gaining anything by doing that, however I'd probably drop Speed EVs before I dropped SpA, because hitting has hard as possible is what Magmortar is about. 196 EVs outspeeds alot of things, including Pokemon who aim to beat Absol at 250. The 60 Atk helps guarantee Fire Blast + Cross Chop 2HKOing Chansey, as well as dealing more damage to Pokemon like Regirock on the switch-in. I think the extra speed was uneeded, basically.

 

[Mountain Dewgong]

<p>Magmortar's attacks will rip a whole into everything that doesn't outright resist it, however, its <b>fragility</b> and Stealth Rock weakness can often hurt him more than the opponent's team will. Due to this, a Rapid Spinner is highly reccomended if using Magmortar, especially the mixed set who uses Life Orb. Anything that sets up Stealth Rock will aid Magmortar in its sweep, especially those that resist Magmortar's weaknesses.</p>

A minor nit-pick, but fragility sounds kind of awkward. Perhaps use frailty?

 

[Valantaro]

Okay, adding HeYsUp's spread as the official spread, and rewriting to talk about how Regirock is less of a threat, etc...

I'll have it up tomorrow, feeling...blegh right now >__>

 

[cim]

Adamant Absol's Speed: 249
LO Milotic's Speed: 212
196 Magmortar's Speed: 251

I dont quite understand Chris, it outspeeds / beats everything you mentioned.

Life Orb Milotic is Base 81 Speed, maxing out at 261 Speed, not 212. 212 isn't even close to Life Orb Milotic's speed.

Valantaro, I would change it back to 232 Speed. The extra Special Attack doesn't matter and the Speed does.

 

[Valantaro]

Damn...I forgot Milotic has 81 Base Speed too :-( Sorry HeYsUp, but I have to agree with CIM here, outrunning Milotic is pretty important. I can still list the 60 Atk spread in OO if you guys think it'd be a good idea. Both sets have benefits.

 

[Cosmic Jeff]

Hidden Power for what though. Rhydon is the only thing I can see it being made a case for. I guess I could mention it.

It would hit any other Fire type harder than Magmortar's other moves as well. That alone seems like it would merit a move-slot over Hidden Power Ice, which is literally only used for a single Pokemon.

 

[cim]

There are very few non-frail Fire types in UU, they're all 2HKOed by Thunderbolt or Cross Chop.

 

[Heysup]

@ Chris:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1901925&postcount=1

I suggest you take a look at the Life Orb Milotic. I'd appreciate if you'd not assume I don't know what I'm talking about, I didnt just make up that number. It is 212 and the extra speed gets you nowhere.

Damn...I forgot Milotic has 81 Base Speed too :-( Sorry HeYsUp, but I have to agree with CIM here, outrunning Milotic is pretty important. I can still list the 60 Atk spread in OO if you guys think it'd be a good idea. Both sets have benefits.

You need to be less hasty when you change stuff, and at least do research if there is a dispute.

The extra speed does litterally nothing, because if a Milotic runs max Speed, he will outspeed you anyway because you are running Mild, and the Milotic will run Timid. The Speed given outruns Milotic with a Life Orb, which is probably the fasted not-max speed milotic that there is.

If we want to argue Atk vs SpA, thats another issue. Right now i'm arguing Speed, which I think should be 192-6.

 

[cim]

heysup, I wouldn't be one to talk about hasty decisions and doing research. Also, that's kind of condescending...

Like Doug stats. More objective than an (outdated) revamp.

Milotic | Speed EV | None | 71.0 |
| Milotic | Speed EV | Max | 18.1

Bam

Many run Max Speed (and happen to be Modest!), enough so that it is worth it. What is the gain of more SpA Evs that makes losing to 20% of Milotics bad?

You missed this last time. Reverse the Attack and Special Attack please. Attack should be maximized

 

[Heysup]

We use the analyses to make other analyses, not the stats. The stats are a guideline. People didn't have a LO Milotic analysis to look at before those stats.

I'm going to stand by the spread in the current LO milotic analysis, and say that your standard LO Milotic is not going to be running max Speed Modest. Until that spread changes, im standing by Milotic being 212, and 196 Spe EVs being sufficient.

Now I think a more pressing argument is Atk vs SpA, but I don't think it needs to go too far. Taking a away power from a Pokemon's strongest STAB attack just because to Max a stat for one UnSTABBed attack is a little ridiculous unless it gets you a sufficient amount of KOes (Chansey isnt one, because the 60 atk / 196 spe / 252 SpA spread beats it). The spread damage from spamming Fire Blasts and Thunderbolts is the best reason to use Magmortar. Why take that away? There is no such thing as being "too powerful".

(Bolded things to emphasize that Magmortar is different then Blaziken in this argument before someone yells Hypocrit :P)

 

[cim]

We use the analyses to make other analyses, not the stats. The stats are a guideline. People didn't have a LO Milotic analysis to look at before those stats.

Do you honestly believe that Life Orb Milotic _shouldnt_ run max stats?

Anyhow, you're wrong anyway. The analyses are not written to the stats, no. But when you're contering something, then the analysis is.

So if 50% of Salamences use Water Gun, you write sets to counter Water Gun Salamence because it is common, but you do not include Water Gun Salamence in the revamp.

Got it?

 

[Heysup]

Do you honestly believe that Life Orb Milotic _shouldnt_ run max stats?

Anyhow, you're wrong anyway. The analyses are not written to the stats, no. But when you're contering something, then the analysis is.

So if 50% of Salamences use Water Gun, you write sets to counter Water Gun Salamence because it is common, but you do not include Water Gun Salamence in the revamp.

Got it?

I see, but you avoided the main discussion: Atk vs SpA. People have agreed with me (SDS and Jrrrr), that the SpA is simply better. When you max attack, you are using a shitty Blaziken with Thunderbolt.

The sole reason Cross Chop exists is to KO Chansey, and it still does that with 60 Atk, and that doesn't take power away from Mag's main attack, which is Fire Blast.

Maxing attack is like maxing SpA on a DDmence with Fire Blast, probably worse than that imo.

Fire Blast takes priority over Cross Chop, nevermind Thunderbolt and HP Ice. What does the attack increase get you? The SpA increase gets you spread damage, and KOes against Pokemon like Spiritomb and Hariyama. The Atk EVs don't seem to be useful at all.

Keep the set 24 Atk / 252 SpA / 232 Spe for now imo, and when Milotic comes up we'll adjust the speed.

 

[cim]

No we won't adjust the speed. We're not adjusting the Speed unless Max Speed Milotic isn't common anymore, and that's not going to happen. It's like saying "yeah you have a point but I'm going to tell the OP to essentially ignore it"

I was under the impression people were using Cross Chop for other things. I have no expereince with the spread so I don't particularly care, but other people had reasons for 252 Attack so check those first.

 

[Heysup]

I was under the impression that once the Milotic analysis comes up / is finalized, then we'll have a base for Pokemon who rely on outspeeding it (Blaziken and Magmortar to name a few).