late edit:
i am a 16 year old dumbshit with an ego problem. i should not post like an immature asshole. sorry everyoneok before i say anything else id like to apologize to stauffen and thank him for keeping his cool despite my crap. I vehemently disagree with you about choice items, but I definitely should not post the way I did. I misunderstood some of your arguments and stuff, and I was in a bit of a bad mood in general yesterday, so a lot of the things i said id have said differently.
anyways, I'll start off my post debating with panamaxis / animenagai, as they seemed to put up the most intelligent posts.
to panamaxis, I'm too lazy to go in and quote reply to all your different "more realistic" scenarios, but basically here is the bottom line: for you to win vs. stall with sdape there are 3 things you have to do. weaken the physical wall (hippo/gliscor/swampert), which is super easy to do when you have them depending on those mons to take on lucario and salamence and gyarados and stuff, so one sacrifice and you've got this done, keep ts off the field, which is also super easy to do when you consider that all the common ts setters are scared shitless of near everyone on this team meaning they dont get in, and find an opening for sdape. now, finding an opening for sdape is super easy. all you have to do really is get him in on either blissey or celebi. if they stay in to sacrifice bliss/celebi and twave ape, so be it. they just lost their best answer to gyara / jolteon and you can win with that if you play smart. so if you can break stall just the same with ddmence and mixmence (as in they both do it decently well) then there must be some other reason. the reason to use ddmence > mixmence is that ddmence only needs to switch in once to do sufficient damage to the enemy team. you get him in, he bowls over or at least cripples his checks, he dies, you get a free turn to get the next guy in, boom. you've likely won if you're not a retard. with mixmence, you come in, draco meteor, maybe outrage, switch out, switch in later, come back, draco meteor, do whatever. that's a lot of switching in and out. do you know what switching in and out means? your opponent gets to..... set up! and since you don't have any scarfers you are fucked. That's pretty much the reason to use ddmence. the whole "dont get set up" idea of offense, because you can't let things set up on you. the single quickest way to lose with offense is to give your opponent free turns. and mixmence will be giving the opponent more free turns than ddmence. oh, and you seem to for some reason think that ddmence can't hit hard without the dd? that outrage still 2hkos a host of physical walls with sr and ohkos tons of crap that isnt physically bulky. so all in all, mixmence helps more against stall, but stall is covered just fine and ddmence is better overall for the team when you consider the free turns mixmence is giving the opponent as well as ddmence's ability to better punish the opponent for free turns they give him.
to animenagai,
Despite this, I don't think what Stat said was true at all. This team has 3 priority users and 2 u-turners. Prediction isn't gonna be THAT hard with u-turn is it?
On the subject of set up sweepers and being set up, it's only a problem if the opponent setting up can do big damage to you, and this team has those things in check. He has ice shard and bullet punch for mence (which will only have 75% HP after SR), mach punch for lucario, and as for agiligross he has a very good counter in swampert. Before you take the 'if X dies, Y sweeps route', that's pretty much for any good team.
You cannot guaratee 2+ counters for everything in the OU list. Heck, you probably can't have ONE perfect counter to everything OU on a team. All your team needs to do is make sure it doesn't sweep you and that you have some why of dealing with it. The team maker has done this, so why all the noise?
the issue is, mamoswine, one of his priority users, is near dead after the beginning, and dies switching into sr whenever he decides to come back in. this makes salamence actually REALLY scary, because a 56 atk lo scizor bullet punch isnt doing nearly enough to scare salamence, so ddmence is still gonna get 2+ kills without having to predict too much. given how common ddmence is, this is pretty scary. oh, and assuming its a mixmence, you still have a bitch of a time switching into it, as it still does pretty much ohko every single mon on your team if it has the right move. and with plenty of oppertunities to switch in, it's getting plenty of chances to kill your mons. no matter what happens, salamence is almost always gonna open holes in this team. jolly gyara, at the same time, is also near guaranteed to open a hole in the team by taking out swampert, and we all know the shit that likes to pair up with gyara. yes, he does have pokemon in check, and yes, he can take on gyara and luke alone. but how does he fair against whole teams? with all these choicers it is easy to force stauffen's hand, and once one pokemon goes down on this team suddenly stauffen pretty much loses. and while you say "if x goes down y sweeps" is true for most teams, it is not true for a good offensive team. well, maybe for a "good" offensive team, but I can say for a fact that the team I use, the teams my tutees use, and the teams I suggest people use, if they are offensive, they are perfectly fine if one man on the team goes down. so even if my argument is "if x goes down y sweeps" I'm still improving the team greatly if i change the statement to "if x goes down i dont care," wouldnt you agree? that's why I'm making the noise.
now, onto el becko. you are, in nearly every way, wrong. not only that, but you insulted my intelligence as a teamrater. so, here I am, "making up for any bad rep I may have gotten in the last few posts" because in fact I AM right and you ARE wrong.
starting with stall. you said ts is not an instalose for this team, and to an extent, it does stand a fighting chance. the problem is, once the stall player does have ts up, it's just a matter of switching shit into your choicers that walls it until everything is dead. stauffen really has to predict in a big way to get back in the game once the opponent has ts up. bottom line, a smart stall player, once he has gotten his ts up, will likely win vs. all these choice items.
oh, and as for your tof quote, while this team can beat stall, it still takes assloads of prediction to do so, and it is more reliable to beat stall without predicting than to beat stall with predicting. but here, you are SOMEWHAT right, but mainly that's because I just briefly touched on stall to say what issues he had with it. insta-lose was a bit of an exaggeration on my part, so yes, you got me here, but like I said, a smart staller should be able to win once ts are up.
after you quoted tof, you told me that "bashing people for backing up claims with relevant information is absurd." and you are right, bashing people for backing up claims with relevant information is absurd. but he's not backing up any claims with relevant information. he's simply saying this threat is rare so I don't wanna deal with it. let me restate my obi quote, "I'd rather win automatically vs. 75% of teams and have a chance vs. the other 25% than automatically win vs. 90% of teams and lose instantly to the other 10%." I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment, which would apply if I was only talking about jolly gyara / agiligross, but I was talking about the bigger picture. I was using jolly gyara / agiligross as an example of a two poke combination that an offensive team would use that fucks with him. and what he did in response was look at the smaller picture and pull usage statistics on those specific pokemon. I found this insulting because he was implying that I, too, was only looking at the smaller picture and not in fact addressing the fact that tons of shit is, in fact, threatening to him. when I made the jolly gyara / agiligross example it was the first thing that popped into my head because I am currently using both pokemon on my team. I did not mean that specifically jolly gyara / agiligross rapes him, though that seemed to be how he interpreted it. I saw this as an insult to my intelligence as a team rater, portraying me as nothing more than a guy who saus "you are weak to x use y instead" when in reality I am probably the best rater around at the moment, at least for offense, call me a bit arrogant. naturally I told him that he was retarded, given my mood and the message I got from his use of usage statistics. but my argument still stands, that even if I was JUST talking about agiligross / gyara, blatantly disregarding me and saying "its not common so i dont care" is counterproductive for whoever is trying to improve their team. if you had the option beating every threat or of beating almost every threat, which would you choose?
as for the threats I listed out, they were the first ones I could think of in ten minutes from familiar teams. I was by no means making a complete list of things that raped him, merely giving a few more examples, since one wasn't enough to convince him. you seem particularly interested in the cbdug agilipoleon logar combo, saying "oh you dont win blah blah blah." but, in reality, he does. cb mach punch from infernape does 58% - 69% to standard agility empoleon. this means that if he's smart and just takes the ohkos he can get without subbing, he does in fact sweep. this means that the only way to deal with empoleon is to go to as he agilities and not a moment sooner. at this point, empleon can actually sub to scout your move, go to dugtrio if it's thunderbolt, kill of jolteon, and then the next time empoleon comes in infernape and scizor both have to roll high damage to beat it. that's if empoleon subs to ease prediction. if he goes straight to duggy on the tbolt you have no chance whatsoever. logar happened to be on the team, and it is annoying enough if it gets in on ape. oh, and in addition to that, if ape ever happens to use something other than mach punch or u-turn, duggy can revenge kill it and empoleon wins hands down. just a sayin. as for the rest of your arguments, you basically regarded everything alone. sure, his team can take on salamence. but can his team take on salamence and then 5 other pokemon? it cannot. all your arguments regarding him getting raped by setup sweepers are null (this is the part where I start bashing you but I'm trying to be civilized so I'll leave it at that).
as for what I said about the whole ladder rank thing, I'll admit to being wrong there, as now I understand why stauffen pulled in the whole ladder rank thing (though secretly I still think you have to be an idiot to lose to this team, therefore everyone he beat is an idiot).
as for the lucario opening thing, that is stauffen's own fault for saying anything, as my variation of the team has zero issues with lucario and on my variation of the team ape does not have mach punch.
on the whole mixmence or ddmence vs. stall, stauffen claimed that ddmence did not beat stall. I was simply telling him otherwise. you misinterpreted it. I am at no fault here. only you. oh, and by the way, why does ddmence need an opening to break stall? last time I checked most of the shit in ou was still 2hkod by a +0 lo outrage from mence.
you also seem to have missed the fact that scizor is still amazing setup bait for anything, and that once a hole has been punched in this team (something that is INCREDIBLY easy to do, as I've explained time and time again). and once that hole has been punched, stauffen is likely going to lose the game once scizor comes in. and while you say that "anything loses to combinations" I am saying that in general, a group of any two offensive pokemon will have no trouble making short work of this team. if "anything loses to combinations" then how does anyone win at all? a team is, in fact, a combination of 6 pokemon. stop thinking of how stauffen defeats one pokemon and start looking how offensive teams in general handle him. then you'll understand what I'm trying to say.
it's a shame I had to waste so much of my time because someone couldn't understand my arguments.
edit relevant to the team: Stauffen, if you're gonna keep cbape and cbpert, you can still keep yourself from getting setup on toooo easily by going charge beam lo jolteon and replacing scizor with sdluke. your bases are still covered fairly the same, but you are not nearly as easy to set up on now.
actually, some food for thought is modest scarfjolt. it fills your revenge killing needs, gives you a good enough switch to lozap.
