Manaphy discussion.

#26
I have a question...why is Manaphy even uber? It relies on Rain to be anything special, which is only easily maintained in the uber environment anyway, which only means it's got a niche in ubers.

I mean stuff does handle it nicely in the OU. Specs Jolteon for example outspeeds and OHKOs Manaphy with Thunderbolt, and the defensive version still gets OHKOed easily when stealth rock is present. I can't see how this Pokemon is too good for the OU environment.
 
#27
I have a question...why is Manaphy even uber? It relies on Rain to be anything special, which is only easily maintained in the uber environment anyway, which only means it's got a niche in ubers.

I mean stuff does handle it nicely in the OU. Specs Jolteon for example outspeeds and OHKOs Manaphy with Thunderbolt, and the defensive version still gets OHKOed easily when stealth rock is present. I can't see how this Pokemon is too good for the OU environment.
It has a +2 boosting, fantastic bulk, and can easily sweep teams, once anything that is faster is removed. Tyranitar is a very common partner to Manaphy to help eliminate Latias and Jolteon.
 

supermarth64

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#28
I have a question...why is Manaphy even uber? It relies on Rain to be anything special, which is only easily maintained in the uber environment anyway, which only means it's got a niche in ubers.

I mean stuff does handle it nicely in the OU. Specs Jolteon for example outspeeds and OHKOs Manaphy with Thunderbolt, and the defensive version still gets OHKOed easily when stealth rock is present. I can't see how this Pokemon is too good for the OU environment.
It was voted OU in the suspect test, mainly due to the Tail Glow + 3 attacks set with Wacan Berry/Life Orb after Jolteon/Latias are removed with usually Scarf Tyranitar.

Fu tripe 1 second ~_~.
 
#29
it seems like todays metagame does not favour manaphy very well. Note that the below comments are based on my observations, NOT the usage statistics.

Groudon is more common that kyogre higher up on the ladder from what i see. This means that manaphy has a much harder time sweeping against stall teams which almost ALWAYS have a groudon &toxic spikes up.

Mewtwo's are annoying as hell with taunt. Manaphy cannot deal with taunt at all as its not very fast and can easily be killed after its rest has been disabled.

Giratina-O's popularity almost forces manaphy to run ice beam which makes manaphy do absolute shit to kyogre unless your manaphy is running a set of surf/ice beam/grass knot/nasty plot (or some other near useless set) which may beat kyogre but loses to nearly everything faster.

tl;dr abundance of taunt mewtwos, groudons, and giratina0 (AKA quick stall) has made manaphy effectively useless
 

shrang

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#30
I said Manaphy "has some potential", not like its awesome or anything. However, I'd like to say that Manaphy is not useless at all. Quick Stall doesn't always carry Groudon around (They prefer faster stallers like Shaymin-S, Mewtwo and stuff), and if it doesn't have Groudon on its team, it cannot do crap to Manaphy because Rain cures any kind of Poison or what have you. Anyway:

About Kyogre, you would lose if its Specs or Calm Mind + RestTalk, however, you can play around this quite easily. You'd generally probe the set by Calm Minding up to +2 (Assuming you are at +1 when Kyogre comes in). If it does >60% with Thunder, it's Specs'd and switch to your Ground type, like SD Garchomp for a free set-up (Or you can be a troll and trap Kyogre with Dugtrio). If it's a CM Kyogre, go to Latias or something. Manaphy will always beat ScarfOgre 1-1, barring crits. I've shown on the previous page that you can easily Calm Mind and Rest in its face until you get to +6.

The standard Giratina-O's (Mixed Spin blocker) way doing any consistent damage to Manaphy is by using Outrage (Draco Meteor gets weaker while Manaphy would just Rest it off), which means it's set-up fodder for Forretress. On the topic of Forretress, if you get Toxic Spikes up, QuickStall Mewtwo would lose to Manaphy, because he would get wittled down by poison while Manaphy laughs at WoW or Toxic Spikes if Rain is up.
 
#31
the biggest problem i see with Manaphy is its abysmal speed for a sweeper. because of its low speed i think the tail glow set is straight out bad. cm manaphy seems like a decent idea but the problem is that manaphy and kyogre are similiar enough and packing both on the same team seems a bit redundant in terms of typing and coverage imo
 

FlareBlitz

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#33
Manaphy's base 100 SPE actually isn't bad for the Ubers metagame, the only thing it's really afraid of is Mewtwo Lati@s and Skymin, as those are the only Pokemon barring scarfers who are faster and can ohko it (Mewtwo/Lati@s need Thunder). Darkari is an issue if it's not raining, but otherwise it can't do much but fire off weak dark pulses before dying instantly. The real problem with Manaphy is that it's really pretty bad if the weather isn't on your side and that Kyogre does a lot of what it can better...but carrying both on the same team is completely viable, as they can weaken each others' checks.
 
#34
The real problem with Manaphy is that it's really pretty bad if the weather isn't on your side and that Kyogre does a lot of what it can better...but carrying both on the same team is completely viable, as they can weaken each others' checks.
Such as Rest-Talk Kyogre and CM Manaphy (I don't recall which user has that team, but check it out in the RMT subforum). For example Manaphy can CM alongside with CM Latias, a big check to Kyogre.
 

Pirika

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#35
For eliminating Groudon, Mixed Dialga with Shuca Berry is a great partner for Manaphy. Dialga can lure Groudon and 2HKO it with Draco Meteor or Fire Blast and it survives a EQ with Shuca Berry. Also, Dialga can revenge Giratina-O locked in Outrage.
 

shrang

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#36
Such as Rest-Talk Kyogre and CM Manaphy (I don't recall which user has that team, but check it out in the RMT subforum). For example Manaphy can CM alongside with CM Latias, a big check to Kyogre.
That would have been my team =D. Manaphy cannot win against CM Latias, though.
 
#37
I would say that while Manaphy is one of the worst Ubers it can still be a very effective pokemon IF you build your team around him.

He simply isn't versatile enough to just slap on any team and expect success, you need to have eternal rain making Kyogre a must and then you must have pokes that can lure out and beat his counters.

This can be said about alot of pokemon but the power of +2 rain powered surf isn't something to joke about.
 
#38
The problem I have with Manaphy is that it absolutely NEEDS rain support from Kyogre. "Great," you say, "I have a Kyogre on my team. I'll just make sure I send out Kyogre first!" But here, there's an issue. What if your opponent sends out Groudon or Tyranitar or Rayquaza? Manaphy is severely gimped without the rain. I have seen several Manaphy users in Ubers, but none of their Manaphies has ever posed a serious threat to my team. I have to say it's an OU Pokémon.
 
#39
Totaly true eValentino!
I actually made a team with Abomasnow and Tyranitar once just to crush rain teams in Uber.

Should be noted that after a Tail Glow Rayquaza wont stand a chance against Manaphy though.
 

shrang

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#40
Tail Glow Manaphys aren't that effective any more, since you'll just get revenge killed way too easily (Stuff like ScarfOgre, Latias will all OHKO you with Thunder). Calm Mind, in my opinion, is the best way to go these days, since after a Calm Mind, Manaphy's bulk goes to a whole new level.
 
#41
Tail Glow Manaphys aren't that effective any more, since you'll just get revenge killed way too easily (Stuff like ScarfOgre, Latias will all OHKO you with Thunder). Calm Mind, in my opinion, is the best way to go these days, since after a Calm Mind, Manaphy's bulk goes to a whole new level.
Cm Latias will kill Manaphy anyways, barring hax ofc.
 
#42
If you ask me, Manaphy seems to be a higher risk, higher payout pokemon. I hae used manaphy on my uber team for quite some time, and for me he seems to one do nothing or two save me. Also in doubles he is amazing. Able to boost it's self up well the foeaims there attacks at kygore. Then it can attemp to sweep itself or give the boost via heart swap to another sweeper, +2 bulky mewtwo anyone?
 
#43
I tried Shrang's CM Manaphy set, and it blew my mind. Manaphy is simply awesome, and great as a stallbreaker against players who lack CM/PU Blissey or CM Latias. It made a solid Darkrai check if you predicted a Dark Void.

Garchomp is almost required as a Manaphy partner, since you obviously can't use Groudon to absorb TWaves/Thunders, and Kyogre and Manaphy lure Thunders like Twilight lures middle-age women for whatever reason. Trust me, being Thunder-weak in Ubers is not a good thing.

So as long as you have Kyogre/Manaphy/Garchomp, feel free to build whatever.
 
#44
I find Tail Glow Manaphy unde Dual Screens to be a very potent sweeper, as Manaphy can live Thunders and the like and hit back with +2 Sp.Atk.

As for a new set, a Heart Swap Manaphy seems intersting, being able to outspeed CM Ogre and steal his Boosts.
 
#45
I find Tail Glow Manaphy unde Dual Screens to be a very potent sweeper, as Manaphy can live Thunders and the like and hit back with +2 Sp.Atk.

As for a new set, a Heart Swap Manaphy seems intersting, being able to outspeed CM Ogre and steal his Boosts.
Any sweeper under screens is deadly.
 
#46
I haven't tested this out, but would a wacan berry do well for manaphy? It would weaken the thunders from lati@s, kyogre and palkia giving it time to set up an extra CM.
 

shrang

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#47
I've been testing out TG-Wacan Manaphy, but inability to get past checks without quite a bit of support is off-putting. +2 Grass Knot does 58.07% - 68.32% to standard Palkia, so if you can get some entry hazard support and get Palkia to switch in once or twice, you got yourself a reasonable sweeper. The set I'm testing is simply the one everyone abused in Stage 3-3, which is just Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Knot @ Wacan. No need for Rest.
 
#48
Here's the set I've been running lately.

Manaphy@Leftovers
252hp/252atk

Waterfall
U-turn
Heal Bell/Rest
Toxic/Return/Protect

This set utilizes Waterfall and U-turn to scout and deal decent damage off it's base 100 attack to it's common switch-in's, such as Blissey and Latias. The last two movesets can be used to aid in team support with Heal-Bell and Toxic or to increase Manaphy's longevity with Rest and Protect. Return is an option to hit Kyogre and Palkia rather hard on the switch, however this limits Manaphy's overall usefulness.

The EV's are designed to maximize bulk and power. They could probably be improved though.

Good teammates for this set include Kyogre, to provide everlasting rain, Garchomp, to take Electric attacks and keep offensive momentum, and Dialga, who sponges grass attacks and is effective at taking advantage of U-turn switches though it's wallbreaking prowess and ability to set up by itself with Bulk Up.
 
#49
I think I have played against this set. It can be annoying but I'd really be more worried about the current set. Besides, manaphy is already status immune.
 
#50
I've been testing out TG-Wacan Manaphy, but inability to get past checks without quite a bit of support is off-putting. +2 Grass Knot does 58.07% - 68.32% to standard Palkia, so if you can get some entry hazard support and get Palkia to switch in once or twice, you got yourself a reasonable sweeper. The set I'm testing is simply the one everyone abused in Stage 3-3, which is just Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Knot @ Wacan. No need for Rest.
As always, Latias still presents a problem. Back in 3-3, the worst Manaphy dealt with was specs thunderbolt, now that Latias has thunder and a +1 SpD, +2 ice beam won't 2hko anymore. Thunder will certainally 2hko.
 

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