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meat is murder
- Thread starter mattj
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I did a brief search for websites about vegetarianism and enlightenment. So sue me, I didn't in depth read for accuracy. However, this just seems to be one person's interpretation of the Torah, and that's perfectly valid. Each Rabbi interprets differently. Some have more credibility than others, but I wouldn't discount any. No offense, but I think you are focusing on small points. My point was that it is associated with enlightenment, and most the links illustrate that. I don't know why you are disagreeing with possibly the most moderate and neutral part of my post, of all the possibly offensive things I said, you want to debate the stereotype of an enlightened vegetarian? Maybe I'm just exposed to different stereotypes, but I thought that was pretty standard...
@ssbbm
You make good points. I'm not saying our morals put us on top, but they certainly help us build when we're up there. Obviously, the world isn't perfect and many people have no morals, but it's a lot easier to build a civilization if you can trust the guy next to you.
I'm debating what I know about(or what I can leach off of my friends). I know nothing of Yoga, or Buddism, or Hinduism. I still don't buy into your enlightment idea, Why is the vegetarianism associated with enlightment? Because someone says so? How about the other people who say not like him?
Also, my morals are most likely different then my neighbor. Why is veginism(because i still need spellcheck to actually spell it, so i give up) an higher form of it? What if I say it isn't? You say it is, but morals are different for everybody.
Also, my morals are most likely different then my neighbor. Why is veginism(because i still need spellcheck to actually spell it, so i give up) an higher form of it? What if I say it isn't? You say it is, but morals are different for everybody.
It's not an idea, it's a stereotype -.- I'm honestly not trying to sound repetitive, but that's what it is. It's because the eastern religions like Buddism and Hinduism promote and encourage vegetarianism. Think of Budda, the ultimate enlightened wise monk. He was vegetarian. "Someone" doesn't say so, it's a cultural image of wise, enlightened, vegan monks.
The ultimate base of morals is the Golden Rule "Do unto others as you want them to do unto you" or however it goes. In all civilized societies, this is an unwritten rule. Uncivilized cultures may abandon this, but the point I'm trying to make is that as people get more civilized and moral standards increase, this Golden Rule is the result. Vegetarianism is a higher form of that because we extend that courtesy to animals.
I thought the vegetarian stereotype wasn't enlightened monks, but it was shrill, self-righteous assholes who think they're better than omnivores. I mean, I've heard people claim that vegetarianism makes you enlightened... but I wouldn't describe it as a stereotype, especially when compared to the one I mentioned.
As far as the USA is concerned I would agree with this, but perhaps other countries have rather different experiences? I would be interested to learn about that.
You do realize that our bodies aren't designed to consume the volume of meat that we do, right? If it weren't for mass production which is a very modern invention, we wouldn't be able to eat nearly as much meat than we do now. It would just be too scarce and expensive. Our bodies are designed to eat leafy greens and vegetables and, occasionally, fruits. Meat is a luxury.
That doesn't even make sense. By advances in agriculture through our entire history we are able to produce far more food than would grow in normal conditions. This isn't the same as going around a forest or whatever and picking the place clean of anything remotely edible. We destroy their habitats, over fish, pollute, those are the problems, not scavenging for anything an animal may eat.
Also, the whole "meat is murder" is just stupid as it doesn't even fit the definition of murder. We can live without meat, and the consumption of meat isn't a viable prospect for our population size. It is a luxury and while I don't consider eating meet inherently immoral I do think that the proper thing to do is to go without it.
As a lifetime vegetarian I can assuage all your concerns and thusly confirm that cleverness, harmonious existence/elightenment, Kung-Fu super powers, and gratuitous sex appeal/general handsomeness are all symptoms of perfect Vegetarianism.
okay honestly why do people classify "fish" and "meat" as different things
i am looking at you lee, and i "get it," but i think you are a victim of laziness in classifying all the various forms and presentations of meat, which is loosely defined as "from an animal" while also "containing protein"
vegetarians/vegans (moreso vegans) that justify eating fish are kind of idiotic. it is meat, it doesn't matter if it's bloody and red when it's fresh, it is still meat.
anyway, killing animals for food is completely justifiable, no question. torturing animals and not giving a shit about how they're raised just to eventually be slaughtered for food? not only does it result in a poorer quality food product, it's just stupid. if we as a society are going to dismiss murder as wrong and the like, we shouldn't condone unnecessary animal cruelty as a means of misplaced aggression, if it were as simple as that. play nice unless playing nice is a detriment, kids.
me personally I probably could stand to eat less meat, and I wouldn't have a problem doing so. sometimes I feel awful after eating a large, succulent burger, but it's a regret I keep diving into over and over. it just hurts so good. I would love to get a cook book and prepare meals that were more economically sound and good for me, but I don't really have the space or desire to exert such effort right now. maybe when I get a new apartment and my kitchen is nicer. also, I'm more of a baker. i'll just live off of cookies.
i am looking at you lee, and i "get it," but i think you are a victim of laziness in classifying all the various forms and presentations of meat, which is loosely defined as "from an animal" while also "containing protein"
vegetarians/vegans (moreso vegans) that justify eating fish are kind of idiotic. it is meat, it doesn't matter if it's bloody and red when it's fresh, it is still meat.
anyway, killing animals for food is completely justifiable, no question. torturing animals and not giving a shit about how they're raised just to eventually be slaughtered for food? not only does it result in a poorer quality food product, it's just stupid. if we as a society are going to dismiss murder as wrong and the like, we shouldn't condone unnecessary animal cruelty as a means of misplaced aggression, if it were as simple as that. play nice unless playing nice is a detriment, kids.
me personally I probably could stand to eat less meat, and I wouldn't have a problem doing so. sometimes I feel awful after eating a large, succulent burger, but it's a regret I keep diving into over and over. it just hurts so good. I would love to get a cook book and prepare meals that were more economically sound and good for me, but I don't really have the space or desire to exert such effort right now. maybe when I get a new apartment and my kitchen is nicer. also, I'm more of a baker. i'll just live off of cookies.
I thought I was quite clear in my explanation of this and went as far as explicitly saying I don't consider myself a vegetarian - I don't eat meat because it's really quite bad for you and the nutritional benefits are easily substituted whereas I do eat fish because it's really good for you and some of the benefits (such as Omega 3) are difficult to find elsewhere. That is more than sufficient justification for me - I don't approve of the way animals are treated in the meat industry but it has minimal bearing on my choice here. I simply care about my health.
okay I really didn't want to join this thread but I saw this and am like "nope". Sorry, Ace Emerald. As someone who was raised Orthodox Jewish and went to a Jewish school almost my entire life, I can tell you its a mitzvah, positive commandment, to eat meat. In fact, for the Friday night meal, you're SUPPOSED to eat meat. Its not quite open for interpretation, and I'd love to find a Rabbi that says differently...
I'll add my voice to this matter later, I have bio now byeees
I have a strange relationship with meat. I love it. Basically all and any types apart from the more delicacy-like meats such as veal and foie gras.
However, I'm also painfully aware of the horrific conditions that animals that we eat are raised in, and the arguably inhumane way in which the majority of them are slaughtered. Paul McCartney once said "If slaughter houses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian", and I pretty much agree. This goes for other animal driven industries, such as the fur industry, as well. Some of the videos I've seen about fur farming almost made me sick to my stomach, and have stayed with me for a long time.
I continue to eat meat despite this for a number of reasons. Number one being that I'm not a big vegetable eater, and if I were to stop eating meat, I'm not sure exactly what I would eat that wouldn't lead to a very unbalanced, unhealthy diet. I'm sure that one of the prerequisites to becoming a vegetarian is that you have to actually like vegetables. Number two being that I like to work out, and being naturally slim all my life I've only started to put on weight and muscle recently, and meat and dairy are a big source of protein and fat that I need. I'd be afraid of losing any size due to skipping out on meat or dairy since it's taken a lot of work for what small amount I have gained.
Having said that, at some point in the future when I've reached my goals, work out wise, and am earning a decent wage and living a semi-stable life, I'm going to attempt becoming vegan or vegetarian. I've read about vegan and vegetarian bodybuilders so I'm fully aware that you can be vegan and have a body similar to those that aren't. That is unless factory farming conditions improve, but I don't see that happening.
Regarding the "meat is murder" thing, that's a PETA slogan, right? PETA went from a semi-reputable animal activist group that got great publicity through occasional shock tactics to a complete joke. It recently start campaigning against Pokemon, deeming it "cruel". Laughable.
The bottom line is that animals need to eat other animals to live, and humans are no different. That isn't going to change. What should change, is the standards of lives of the animals being raised for us to eat, and a universally controlled and humane way to slaughter them. That should change absolutely.
The reason why animals figure so heavily in proto- and pagan religions is because the people who were hunting and killing them were also the same people who were eating them, they had more respect and compassion for the animal that was giving their life to feed them. In modern times because everyone is so dissociated from the meat industry, it leads to inhumane and dubious practices.
However, I'm also painfully aware of the horrific conditions that animals that we eat are raised in, and the arguably inhumane way in which the majority of them are slaughtered. Paul McCartney once said "If slaughter houses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian", and I pretty much agree. This goes for other animal driven industries, such as the fur industry, as well. Some of the videos I've seen about fur farming almost made me sick to my stomach, and have stayed with me for a long time.
I continue to eat meat despite this for a number of reasons. Number one being that I'm not a big vegetable eater, and if I were to stop eating meat, I'm not sure exactly what I would eat that wouldn't lead to a very unbalanced, unhealthy diet. I'm sure that one of the prerequisites to becoming a vegetarian is that you have to actually like vegetables. Number two being that I like to work out, and being naturally slim all my life I've only started to put on weight and muscle recently, and meat and dairy are a big source of protein and fat that I need. I'd be afraid of losing any size due to skipping out on meat or dairy since it's taken a lot of work for what small amount I have gained.
Having said that, at some point in the future when I've reached my goals, work out wise, and am earning a decent wage and living a semi-stable life, I'm going to attempt becoming vegan or vegetarian. I've read about vegan and vegetarian bodybuilders so I'm fully aware that you can be vegan and have a body similar to those that aren't. That is unless factory farming conditions improve, but I don't see that happening.
Regarding the "meat is murder" thing, that's a PETA slogan, right? PETA went from a semi-reputable animal activist group that got great publicity through occasional shock tactics to a complete joke. It recently start campaigning against Pokemon, deeming it "cruel". Laughable.
The bottom line is that animals need to eat other animals to live, and humans are no different. That isn't going to change. What should change, is the standards of lives of the animals being raised for us to eat, and a universally controlled and humane way to slaughter them. That should change absolutely.
The reason why animals figure so heavily in proto- and pagan religions is because the people who were hunting and killing them were also the same people who were eating them, they had more respect and compassion for the animal that was giving their life to feed them. In modern times because everyone is so dissociated from the meat industry, it leads to inhumane and dubious practices.
OH! it sounds a lot less scathing when I read it like that, I was like 'what the hell have I done to upset fishy' and yeah, I guess you're right - there've been a few occasions itt where I've said 'meat' when I really should have said 'red meat.' to my knowledge there is nothing especially unhealthy about white meat, in fact it's very good for you (provided, y'know, it's not fried and covered in breadcrumbs).
But I've gone off topic a little, all I wanted to get across is that you don't need meat to get all your essential amino acids and it is far from being the best protein source so people shouldn't be attempting to justify their meat consumption (not that I feel they need to justify it to anyone, mind you!) based on factors along those lines.
Uh I don't know how you got this from my post, but it does raise up an interesting subject: he natural feeding habits of homo-sapiens.
You note how we are not designed to eat the amount of meat that we do, while it is true, I would argue that being gluttons about meat is pretty much the only reason we are the way we are today. Ever since early hominids learned to break open bone for the marrow and slurp out its marrowy goodness, our brains have grown larger thanks in part to our increased protein diet. By the time homo sapiens stepped on the scene, we were the big game hunters, we manged to push even mammoths to extinction it is believed. So you can't really argue that its more natural to be a vegetarian. So while it is true that our digestive system would appreciate less meat, it is hard to see how we could be the way we are today without eating it like madmen. Of course hunter gather societies also eat a wider variety of food than we do today to balanced out this gross intake of meat. So its a careful give and take overall as I see it, if anything pointing to our natural feeding habits would suggest nothing more than that we should eat more vegetables, which is a fair claim.
Where I live in the South is pretty interesting, as a lot of people hunt around here as well, but its a pretty liberal college town, so a lot of other points exist as well. Generally people around here just leave each to their own.
I don't personally hunt because getting up early on a sunday/saturday has never been conducive to a good time the night before.
I don't personally hunt because getting up early on a sunday/saturday has never been conducive to a good time the night before.
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