the nature makes its attack stat sky high, and the hp EVs allow it to survive more hits ( for example, medicham vs lucario at about 50% can survive the close combat/bullet punch with 1%)
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Pokémon Medicham
- Thread starter Ash Borer
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also, arcarsenal, mega medicham is definitely viable in OU, anything that 2HKOs SKARMORY with a PHYSICAL move is pretty awesome.
I mean seriously, mega medicham, with pure power boasts the third highest unboosted attack stat in the game after power trick shuckle and mega mawhile.
personally my favorite mega and in my opinion, better than mega mawhile, being twice as fast and not having to rely on sucker punch to kill more than 1 thing and less suceptible to getting revenge killed.
next question
I mean seriously, mega medicham, with pure power boasts the third highest unboosted attack stat in the game after power trick shuckle and mega mawhile.
personally my favorite mega and in my opinion, better than mega mawhile, being twice as fast and not having to rely on sucker punch to kill more than 1 thing and less suceptible to getting revenge killed.
next question
thdhted: Jolly Mega Medicham almost 2HKOs the entire game anyway. His attack is so sky high that I see very little benefit to Adamant.
The only pokemon that seems to give trouble to Jolly Medicham is when you're using Thunderpunch vs Slowbro (who will only be 2HKOed on two high damage rolls. Otherwise, SlackOff + Leftovers slowly regenerates it... on the average).
But forgoing Jolly means that Mega Medicham is revenge-killed by Jolly Excadrill, Timid Hydreigon, Haxorus, Jolly Lucario (on the mega-transform turn). Losing momentum because you let Jolly Lucario mega-evolve is a very... very... bad idea.
The only pokemon that seems to give trouble to Jolly Medicham is when you're using Thunderpunch vs Slowbro (who will only be 2HKOed on two high damage rolls. Otherwise, SlackOff + Leftovers slowly regenerates it... on the average).
But forgoing Jolly means that Mega Medicham is revenge-killed by Jolly Excadrill, Timid Hydreigon, Haxorus, Jolly Lucario (on the mega-transform turn). Losing momentum because you let Jolly Lucario mega-evolve is a very... very... bad idea.
yeah I can see your point. I have just never needed jolly because anything that mega medicham wants to outspeed with jolly usually runs a speed boosting nature anyways and what it does not outspeed with adamant I alleviate with team support
also, adamant makes a HUGE difference sometimes. You are talking about around a 50 point difference in attack counting pure power in
also, adamant makes a HUGE difference sometimes. You are talking about around a 50 point difference in attack counting pure power in
Third highest? Power Trick Shuckle has 614 Attack. Mega Medicham has 656. Mega Mawile has 678.
Regular Medicham had a devastating attack in HJK before mega forms, and could use scarf or band while using it.
M-Medicham's HJK is one of the most powerful moves in the game (only topped by ridiculous things like Specs Deo-A Psycho Boost or Banded Ramparados' Head Smash), but the 100 speed is a bit of a let down (as good of a tier as it is), and that raw power can be achieved by other, faster physical attackers with a Swords Dance or two.
However, it's really not that bad. Unless you're up against a full throttle hyper offensive team, chances are you outspeed and OHKO at LEAST one or two of the opponent's team members. Rotom-W is a HUGE one that you outspeed even when not mega evolved. If you're able to get a free switch in on it (usually with a predicted double switch for me, or just a revenge kill) you have a good shot at KOing something, even if they switch (if you see Lando-T, use Ice Punch. If you see spooky sword, use Fire Punch/Psycho Cut then switch the fuck out.) And if the opponent doesn't have Aegislash, they have literally NO safe switch-ins due to Medicham's coverage moves.
Bullet Punch isn't much better you know... Still 3HKOs.
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 204-240 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Well, that's settled. You need the Ice Punch for Gliscor anyway...
Well, that's settled. You need the Ice Punch for Gliscor anyway...
So far I've been rather underwhelmed by Mega Medicham. The initial switch-in does present a bit of prediction conundrum on your opponent's part so you might be guaranteed to get a KO but it's really frail and it's checked by literally the most common Pokemon. It has unimpressive speed and cannot carry an item to help its frailty. I prefer to use M-Mawile which sports better typing, better STAB options (seriously, fuck HJK), and the initial utility in Intimidate. M-Medicham is a glass cannon but its "base" form always hit like a truck....the only thing the Mega rectifies is average speed so it retains most of the problems of the original.
I've now playtested Mega Medicham with bulky pivots as Sergeant Spooky suggested and though it is good, it's not amazing. First of all, prediction can play against you - I was up against a Bisharp but saw the player also had Gengar on the team. With Bisharp's x4 Fighting weakness I thought he's got to be mad not to switch in Gengar (especially on the off chance I was running HJK, even if I was running Drain Punch it would have still been worth it as Gengar outspeeds and can OHKO with Shadow Ball) so I used Psycho Cut. He left his Bisharp in, used Sucker Punch for heavy damage, and I did zero damage because of the immunity.
He didn't do this because he was a good player and he he was two steps ahead of my thought process, he was just playing recklessly (he admitted so when I questioned him about it), but because he did trying to play intelligently played against me (in his hands, I would have switched in Gengar - not all Medichams run Psycho Cut and Gengar can survive an elemental punch and OHKO or catch something else for heavy damage on the switch out of Medicham - plus if Medicham had used a fighting move you have two full HP mons compared to maybe one dead Medicham if they were foolish enough to leave it in. By leaving in Bisharp you don't kill Medicham with Sucker Punch yet he OHKOs you with any fighting move so this was never the play I expected).
As you can't guarantee the calibre of player your up against (why would you ever risk Bisharp when there was a less risky alternative that could have potetnially left both pokemon at full HP), predicting can become as much of a problem for you as it can be the opponent (admittedly I could have used an elemental punch to play it a bit more safe, but I never in a million years would have guessed he would have left Bisharp in). Plus, with this currently ghost saturated meta (Sableye, Aegislash and Trevenant all having good popularity), the opponent is often in a better situation to play mind games with you than the other way around.
Beyond that, Medicham really needs SR support to make best use of his elemental punches (in the previous example if I did have SR out I had about a third chance to OHKO Gengar with Ice Punch) which is easier said than done. You're probably best off pairing him with Tyranitar, who can both set SR and act as a pivot for Medicham against flying and ghost moves.
Despite the negatives, I also got a few clean 6-0s from leading with Medicham and letting him destroy the other team - if there are no ghosts on the team sweeping becomes easy between HJK and great coverage. I guess I will say that HJK is still problematic, I doubt any good player would run the risk of using it with a ghost about but even so a 1/10 chance to kill yourself with its 90% accuracy (it takes 50% of your life off, and then you're hit with another move by the opponent) isn't the kind of reliability people want on their teams and Drain Punch just doesn't hit hard enough. It's fine for Mega Blaziken to take that risk in Ubers as pokemon are, you know, uber; if Blaziken did go down because of the poor accuracy then you've still got a whole team of uber BST pokemon to pick up the pieces. However in OU your mega should pack the biggest punch on your team and so once your MVP has gone down it will be a significant blow. Though it is a good pokemon, it takes a fair bit of support to function properly.
He didn't do this because he was a good player and he he was two steps ahead of my thought process, he was just playing recklessly (he admitted so when I questioned him about it), but because he did trying to play intelligently played against me (in his hands, I would have switched in Gengar - not all Medichams run Psycho Cut and Gengar can survive an elemental punch and OHKO or catch something else for heavy damage on the switch out of Medicham - plus if Medicham had used a fighting move you have two full HP mons compared to maybe one dead Medicham if they were foolish enough to leave it in. By leaving in Bisharp you don't kill Medicham with Sucker Punch yet he OHKOs you with any fighting move so this was never the play I expected).
As you can't guarantee the calibre of player your up against (why would you ever risk Bisharp when there was a less risky alternative that could have potetnially left both pokemon at full HP), predicting can become as much of a problem for you as it can be the opponent (admittedly I could have used an elemental punch to play it a bit more safe, but I never in a million years would have guessed he would have left Bisharp in). Plus, with this currently ghost saturated meta (Sableye, Aegislash and Trevenant all having good popularity), the opponent is often in a better situation to play mind games with you than the other way around.
Beyond that, Medicham really needs SR support to make best use of his elemental punches (in the previous example if I did have SR out I had about a third chance to OHKO Gengar with Ice Punch) which is easier said than done. You're probably best off pairing him with Tyranitar, who can both set SR and act as a pivot for Medicham against flying and ghost moves.
Despite the negatives, I also got a few clean 6-0s from leading with Medicham and letting him destroy the other team - if there are no ghosts on the team sweeping becomes easy between HJK and great coverage. I guess I will say that HJK is still problematic, I doubt any good player would run the risk of using it with a ghost about but even so a 1/10 chance to kill yourself with its 90% accuracy (it takes 50% of your life off, and then you're hit with another move by the opponent) isn't the kind of reliability people want on their teams and Drain Punch just doesn't hit hard enough. It's fine for Mega Blaziken to take that risk in Ubers as pokemon are, you know, uber; if Blaziken did go down because of the poor accuracy then you've still got a whole team of uber BST pokemon to pick up the pieces. However in OU your mega should pack the biggest punch on your team and so once your MVP has gone down it will be a significant blow. Though it is a good pokemon, it takes a fair bit of support to function properly.
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you are'nt counting investment in any stat.
the mega, while it does get a speed boost, also gets a boost to its defenses. This allows mega medicham to actually take a hit on the side without just dying immediately. Mega mawhile, while having intimidate utility, is not really all that amazing due to very low bulk and pathetic speed, leaving it very open to revenge killing, and has to rely on an unreliable priority move (sucker punch)
in order to kill more than one thing, it has absolutely no method of recovery (medicham at least gets drain punch), and has bad bulk to work with its defenses meaning that bulk investment is absolutely required in its EV spread.
Mega Mawile is not frail. It's bulkier than Rotom-W, and has more resistances.
Mawile also learns Pain Split. Considering Mawile's low HP and Sucker Punch mindgames, I think that this move will become standard on many sets. Play Rough, Sucker Punch, Fire Fang, Pain Split. It'll be unstoppable.
... Hang on, this is the Medicham thread.
When I played Mega Medicham, those defense boosts from base only allow it to take one hit - most things with decent power will 2HKO - though you do typically score the OHKO. Sometimes that's fine, because if you outspeed the rest of their team and they lack priority you've still got the sweep - but you're dramatically overselling its defenses. I'd say the point of Mega Medicham is purely wall breaking and revenge killing, it's not there to sit and take hits and it's not there to set up either - its attack is high enough as it stands.
Mega Mawile, without a shadow of a doubt, has better bulk and much better defensive typing (EDIT: Noticed I was ninja'd by November Blue, but having written this already I'm still posting it). In a way, it's low speed coupled with a priority option (yes, Sucker Punch is unreliable) is a godsend as it allows Mawile players to invest in bulk without reservations. Sucker Punch, though it can be dealt with using a status pokemon, still slaughters anything that has no option other than non-priority attack (even when they do have priority, Mawile either resists or takes neutral damage). Even an Adamant Mamoswine doesn't OHKO all the time (before people jump on me, I'm not saying that Mega Mawile should tank EQs or is a Mamoswine counter, I'm just showing off its defenses. You would obviously swap it out if you were facing a strong EQ):
252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 296-350 (97.3 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
The fact that it can even take a STAB SE move sometimes from a very heavy hitter just shows how good Mawiles defenses are. By contrast, looking at the same move against Medicham when Mamoswine is only hitting it for neutral damage:
252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 205-243 (78.5 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It barely fares any better than Mawile when it was a SE hit (again, just to showcase defenses, Medicham obviously outspeeds and would OHKO with a fighting move). Bottom line, unless it's a resisted hit or you feel confident that you'll get a sweep from Medicham afterwards (or you are running Drain Punch and you feel that might recoup enough health) you should always swap Medicham out to something that can take the hit a lot easier and bring it back in later when the time is right. There really isn't any good argument about Medicham's defenses remotely.
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Mega Mawile is straight up an easier pokemon to use. 9 resists, 2 immunities... and 2 weaknesses easily covered by extremely common, extremely effective pokemon. (Hydreigon, Gyarados, Rotom-W, Talonflame, Lati@s). Hell, you can have an entire team of "Mawile supporters + Mawile" and still have an awesome team. (Dat synergy between Lati@s / Mawile and Hydreigon / Mawile)
Nonetheless, Mega Mawile is "walled" by pokemon like Gliscor and Trevenant, who rely on Substitute / Poison Heal or Substitute / Harvest shenanigans. Mega Mawile is prone to pressure-stalling from Zapdos. Being outsped by key pokemon hampers its style of wallbreaking. Furthermore, it is incredibly difficult to sweep with Mawile... Sucker Punch vs a Dragon Dancer may end up getting your own team destroyed.
Mega-Mawile's speed is absolutely awful. At low HP, Mawile has to be worried about getting Revenge-Killed by Flamethrower / Seismic Toss Blissey, and speed-ties Chansey for the 50/50 chance that Chansey kills it with Seismic Toss (Chansey is bulky enough to take the +2 Suckerpunch btw). Dynamic Punch Machamp gives Mega-Mawile a much harder time than it really should... TTar revenge kills with Earthquake or Fire Blast, Mamoswine revenge-kills with Earthquake. Hydreigon revenge kills with Fire Blast.
All of these `pokemon however, cannot stop a Mega-Medicham sweep.
Nonetheless, Mega Mawile is "walled" by pokemon like Gliscor and Trevenant, who rely on Substitute / Poison Heal or Substitute / Harvest shenanigans. Mega Mawile is prone to pressure-stalling from Zapdos. Being outsped by key pokemon hampers its style of wallbreaking. Furthermore, it is incredibly difficult to sweep with Mawile... Sucker Punch vs a Dragon Dancer may end up getting your own team destroyed.
Mega-Mawile's speed is absolutely awful. At low HP, Mawile has to be worried about getting Revenge-Killed by Flamethrower / Seismic Toss Blissey, and speed-ties Chansey for the 50/50 chance that Chansey kills it with Seismic Toss (Chansey is bulky enough to take the +2 Suckerpunch btw). Dynamic Punch Machamp gives Mega-Mawile a much harder time than it really should... TTar revenge kills with Earthquake or Fire Blast, Mamoswine revenge-kills with Earthquake. Hydreigon revenge kills with Fire Blast.
All of these `pokemon however, cannot stop a Mega-Medicham sweep.
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oh man im loving megacham, the results are just too nice.
rotom-w's that can't switch in, and when the do any previous damage and they're dead.
mega-venusaurs that haul ass.
landorus-t's that have to second guess a switch in because of ice punch.
the big fuck you i can give to gliscor.
those ohko's after ohko, after ohko.
I'm in awe how little he gets hyped, he's an absolute monstrosity.
rotom-w's that can't switch in, and when the do any previous damage and they're dead.
mega-venusaurs that haul ass.
landorus-t's that have to second guess a switch in because of ice punch.
the big fuck you i can give to gliscor.
those ohko's after ohko, after ohko.
I'm in awe how little he gets hyped, he's an absolute monstrosity.
Dragontamer: Most Mega-Mawile are running enough speed to make what you're saying about defensive pokemon like blissey, and slower pokemon like machamp a non-issue.
As for Medicham vs. Mawile: I think the main difference, and why I prefer Mawile (and also what ends up being what makes me think Medicham is not a top tier mega) is typing and bulk. Mega Mawile is bulky, and it's that awesome typing that helps it. Both cause switches, and have the power/moves to cause the pain, but Medicham is so much harder to bring in than mawile. Being faster is nice, but Medicham is not that fast, not fast enough for the lack in bulk it trades for it. Medicham isn't fast enough to sweep teams leaning towards hyper effense, and isn't bulky enough to switch in often on bulkier balanced teams. Seriously, this thing cannot take a hit to save its life, and being swept off its feet by almost every common priority user doesn't help one bit.
Of course this thing is dangerous, I mean look at that attack stat, but I think it's outclassed in the current meta by pokemon that can cause just as much damage but don't need as much help doing so.
As for Medicham vs. Mawile: I think the main difference, and why I prefer Mawile (and also what ends up being what makes me think Medicham is not a top tier mega) is typing and bulk. Mega Mawile is bulky, and it's that awesome typing that helps it. Both cause switches, and have the power/moves to cause the pain, but Medicham is so much harder to bring in than mawile. Being faster is nice, but Medicham is not that fast, not fast enough for the lack in bulk it trades for it. Medicham isn't fast enough to sweep teams leaning towards hyper effense, and isn't bulky enough to switch in often on bulkier balanced teams. Seriously, this thing cannot take a hit to save its life, and being swept off its feet by almost every common priority user doesn't help one bit.
Of course this thing is dangerous, I mean look at that attack stat, but I think it's outclassed in the current meta by pokemon that can cause just as much damage but don't need as much help doing so.
But one thing Medicham has over Mawile is coverage. IMO Mawile just doesn't have the coverage to handle most defensive cores.
Mawile requires Sucker Punch or Substitute to not get revenge killed. That's one slot gone. Swords Dance is another, or else it can't reliably OHKO many revenge killers with Sucker Punch (but I wouldn't call it 100% necessary) and can get walled more easily.
So, assuming three available slots for damaging moves that aren't Sucker Punch (two if you have Swords Dance), you have to make choices on what coverage moves you want to run.
Without your STABs in Iron Head and/or Play Rough, your damage won't be as good as it could be.
Without Brick Break, you get countered by Heatran, who can OHKO with Lava Plume.
Without Fire Fang, you get walled by Skarmory, who can phaze you out and make you lose any boosts you might have had.
Without Iron Head, you can't 2HKO specially defensive Venusaur, who can use Sleep Powder and/or deal a lot of damage with Earth Quake.
Without Play Rough, you miss out on your best STAB, and are countered by bulky Gyarados and walled by Mandibuzz.
Add in even more defensive Pokemon that have different resistances/weaknesses, and it gets even harder to not get checked/countered by many defensive Pokemon: especially when you don't outspeed them.
On the other hand, Medicham, with a moveset consisting of HJK, Psycho Cut/Zen Headbutt, Thunder Punch and Ice Punch, can single-handedly dismantle any defensive core that doesn't include Sableye, Aegislash or odd stuff like Dusclops and Cresselia; and Medicham can handle Aegislash by running Fire Punch (but then gets walled by Slowbro) or all ghosts with Foresight (I don't recommend it though.)
But, most importantly, Medicham IS a lot faster. 100 speed is not very good for a sweeper, but it's fast enough to outspeed most defensive Pokemon. Mawile has extremely poor speed, and is outsped by Heatran, Venusaur, Rotom, Gliscor, bulky Gyarados, Skarmory, etc.
Tl;dr my opinion is that Mawile does better against Hyper Offense teams, having the bulk and typing to take several attacks and the priority to deter revenge killers, while Medicham is much better against balanced and defensive/stall teams, having a ridiculously strong attack in HJK and the coverage to handle anything that resists it AND enough speed to outspeed nearly all defensive Pokemon. Medicham can either obliterate a stall team with zero help from the rest of its team, or get rid of a defensive core on a balanced team which can allow the rest of Medicham's team to handle the rest. These are two things I just don't think Mawile can do as consistently.
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Okay I'm going to be more careful now with what I say because I don't want this to be like the crawdaunt thread with crawdaunt vs. azumarill. The comparison isn't really important to me because they are in fact very different pokemon. I said what I said about Medicham vs Mawile to try and reach the point I wanted to about why I think it's a subpar mega. For all of its smashing capabilities, it has extremely subpar speed for a pokemon of its typing/durability. Fighting/Psychic is nothing to write home about and it really can't switch in on anything more than weak NVE hits, of which there aren't that many. This makes it really hard to switch in multiple times, which a wallbreaker should be able to do. Medicham is not a sweeper, unless the team is really slow and unprepared.
That just gave me an idea. How good is Medicham as an explosive anti-lead? I know CharY makes an excellent one, and they are the same speed tier.
That just gave me an idea. How good is Medicham as an explosive anti-lead? I know CharY makes an excellent one, and they are the same speed tier.
it kind of depends on the lead. It destroys all hazard leads pretty easily and can force the lead out but has to run from smeargle because it can't afford to get sleep haxed, which is why I have either overcoat mandibuzz on my team or sap sipper goodra. Mega medicham is a fairly good anti lead though, but I will still argue against the people who are saying mega medicham is not that great. Drain punch, while no recover is still amazing and a good way to scout ghosts and protect users.
If you want to lead Megacham consider fake out.
For one smeargle isn't a factor unless switched in later.
Most leads are taking a nice chip from a fake out from megachams enormous power, which means he gets the kill next turn generally if he outspeeds, can dent any switch in, can switch out himself at his leisure.
For one smeargle isn't a factor unless switched in later.
Most leads are taking a nice chip from a fake out from megachams enormous power, which means he gets the kill next turn generally if he outspeeds, can dent any switch in, can switch out himself at his leisure.
I feel that saying that it isn't a sweeper is kind of untrue, especially since I've used it as a sweeper and had great results. The key thing is, it is not a stand alone sweeper. Mega Medicham is easily one of the best Pokemon that you can support for an easy sweep, something that MMawile can't do. Its much easier to support Mega Medicham for a sweep, and here are some various ways: Dual Screens, Memento, Parting Shot, Tailwind, Sticky Web, Priority Thunder Waves, etc....
Essentially, Mega Medicham has a speed problem. Despite being able to be rectified by team support, I would classify this as a High-Risk, High-Reward Pokemon that can smash through teams if given the right support.
Except Machamp is +5 speed over Mawile, no matter the build. Either way, you're entering a speed creep war against extremely, extremely slow pokemon... and ending up at a disadvantage.
If Mawile is running 128 Speed EVs to outrun Scizor, Machamp only needs to run 82EVs to outrun the Mawile build. If Mawile is running 184 EVs to outrun Skarmory, then Machamp only needs to run 148 EVs to beat Mawile. Its your typical speed-creep battle, except you're losing against Machamp of all things.
Have you tried Bulk Up Medicham?
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 186-218 (71.2 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 306-360 (91.6 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
The only support I've needed to give it is Heal Bell for any wayward Will-o-Wisps and a slow, bulky pivot (Rotom-H) for safe switch ins.
Sticky Web... no. Between all the fliers, levitators and priority users, when I tried to use it specifically for Medicham it just didn't work. You're also forced to use some pretty lack luster Pokemon. Galvantula is arguably the only good user of it, MAYBE Shuckle. Smeargle is just garbage.
Spreading T-Wave around is good but most players won't allow you to do that, and there's always Heal Bell (and things immune to T-Wave.) Really, I simply don't user Medicham as a sweeper, but to get rid of any defensive Pokemon on the opposing team to allow other team mates to sweep. 100 speed is mediocre for a sweeper but it's just enough to outspeed all defensive Pokemon (except scarfed Lando-T, who can't switch in on an Ice Punch.)
Wow, thats interesting. I've used sticky web to a great effect, and levitators/fliers don't give me so much trouble as I always have away to deal with them (most of the time they will all be dead when Mega Medicham evolves). I do think using it as a sweeper is fine, and with the correct teammates you can really demolish any faster pokemon, a prime example is AV Tyranitar, who takes on Talonflame and Gengar (just some examples out of the many), two pokemon that really threaten an MCham sweep. Anyhow, I think using Mega Medicham relies on your team, if you have a team of quick, faster sweepers that have trouble against some walls, then Mega Medicham is perfect fit for your team. And I personally don't think you can't build a team around it, but it would be a bit harder than simply just using it as a wallbreaker.
One of my favourite Mevo's and I feel its pretty OU viable this gen.
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